Forgive me for asking . .

[spockrates]

The notion of Jesus meek and mild is a travesty of the truth. Imagine being at the Temple when He drove out the traders and moneychangers with an improvised whip!

Yes, but I doubt anyone actually got hurt. I mean, he might have tipped over the money tables, but not the tables with doves cages. The owners of those tables he told to leave and take their birds with them. St. Francis, I’m sure, would have approved!

 

[Prophesy]

Glad to hear you are well. I went to mass today for the first time since I was young. I found it fascinating how the scripture reading and hymn and sermon each had an applicable message for me, personally. Perhaps it was (as my Evangelical friends used to tell me) a God thing?

You need to go more. Based on what I’ve seen of you here and CARM I think that it’s really the place for you. Perhaps you can find out about the parish’s RCIA program. Next Sunday is the last meeting for our group in which one of my very good friends was received into the Church on Easter.



-Prophesy

 

[spockrates]

You need to go more. Based on what I’ve seen of you here and CARM I think that it’s really the place for you. Perhaps you can find out about the parish’s RCIA program. Next Sunday is the last meeting for our group in which one of my very good friends was received into the Church on Easter.



-Prophesy

When do those classes start?

 

[Prophesy]

When do those classes start?

Often in the fall, but you never know. I’d ask to at least show that there’s interest in such a program.

-Prophesy

 

[spockrates]

Often in the fall, but you never know. I’d ask to at least show that there’s interest in such a program.

-Prophesy

Thanks. So are you interested in giving me your opinion on what Forgiveness is? It’s OK if you are not.

 

[Prophesy]

Thanks. So are you interested in giving me your opinion on what Forgiveness is? It’s OK if you are not.

It’s a hard question. Let’s see, immediately I want to say that forgiveness is the act of overcoming anger or hurt through reconciliation with one who has wronged to the reasonable benefit of both parties involved, without coercion on the behalf of the one giving forgiveness.

I’m also going to attach a recognition of the forgiver on the difference between the one to be forgiven and the act that is forgiven.

-Prophesy

 

[spockrates]

It’s a hard question. Let’s see, immediately I want to say that forgiveness is the act of overcoming anger or hurt through reconciliation with one who has wronged to the reasonable benefit of both parties involved, without coercion on the behalf of the one giving forgiveness.

I’m also going to attach a recognition of the forgiver on the difference between the one to be forgiven and the act that is forgiven.

-Prophesy

Thanks for replying. Sorry for not getting back to you before now. So much to do–so little time! Yes, it makes sense to me that overcoming anger is necessary to forgive, and the goal of forgiving should be reconciliation, where possible. Not sure what you mean by “attach a recognition of the forgiver on the difference between the one to be forgiven and the act that is forgiven.” If you see this post, please explain.

 

[tonyrey]

Yes, but I doubt anyone actually got hurt. I mean, he might have tipped over the money tables, but not the tables with doves cages. The owners of those tables he told to leave and take their birds with them. St. Francis, I’m sure, would have approved!

He also condemned the Pharisees in no uncertain terms as “a brood of vipers” and “whited sepulchres”!

 

[tonyrey]

Yes, but I doubt anyone actually got hurt. I mean, he might have tipped over the money tables, but not the tables with doves cages. The owners of those tables he told to leave and take their birds with them. St. Francis, I’m sure, would have approved!

My point is that Jesus was stern and even harsh when he was confronted with evils like hypocrisy which caused the poor to suffer unnecessarily.

 

[Prophesy]

“a recognition of the forgiver on the difference between the one to be forgiven and the act that is forgiven.” If you see this post, please explain.

When someone does a grave enough offence against us, we can reference that person in only terms of the act. “That’s the person who did such and such to me.” etc. Separating the sinner from the sin, I think, is important.

-Prophesy

 

[spockrates]

My point is that Jesus was stern and even harsh when he was confronted with evils like hypocrisy which caused the poor to suffer unnecessarily.

Fascinating! Yes, I see! You’ve opened my eyes to something, my friend. Thank you! You see, I was thinking that one might always show mercy to everyone unconditionally. Yet, Jesus did not appear to show mercy to hypocrites. For mercy is leniency, and He was not lenient at times, perhaps. I mean, consider these words of His:

13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

(Matthew 23)

He calls them hypocrites, blind guides, sons of Hell, walking dead, snakes, hell-bound! Not words or Mercy–or are they? I wonder. If self-righteous people were deceived into thinking they were right with God (when they were really living for the Devil) would it be merciful to not shock them and try to wake them up so that they might see the truth and repent and live? I mean, I wonder if not warning them would have been the most hateful and harshest thing Jesus could have done. If warning them is not merciful, then perhaps it was love of a different kind? What do you think?

 

[davidv]

Fascinating! Yes, I see! You’ve opened my eyes to something, my friend. Thank you! You see, I was thinking that one might always show mercy to everyone unconditionally. Yet, Jesus did not appear to show mercy to hypocrites. For mercy is leniency, and He was not lenient at times, perhaps. I mean, consider these words of His:
13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

(Matthew 23)
He calls them hypocrites, blind guides, sons of Hell, walking dead, snakes, hell-bound! Not words or Mercy–or are they?

I think also, that they are not words of Judgement either. As this is not the time for judgement but the time for repentance. We must acknowledge our sin before we can repent. His words are a warning of their sinfulness and the need to repent.

I wonder. If self-righteous people were deceived into thinking they were right with God (when they were really living for the Devil) would it be merciful to not shock them and try to wake them up so that they might see the truth and repent and live?

I believe this thinking is behind the teachings on fraternal correction that are given in the NT.

I mean, I wonder if not warning them would have been the most hateful and harshest thing Jesus could have done. If warning them is not merciful, then perhaps it was love of a different kind? What do you think?

If loving means to desire the best for another, we cannot remain silent or inactive, with anyone we are in position to influence, if the arey endangering themselves. To persist in sin is a clear danger to ones soul.

 

[spockrates]

I think also, that they are not words of Judgement either. As this is not the time for judgement but the time for repentance. We must acknowledge our sin before we can repent. His words are a warning of their sinfulness and the need to repent.

I believe this thinking is behind the teachings on fraternal correction that are given in the NT.

If loving means to desire the best for another, we cannot remain silent or inactive, with anyone we are in position to influence, if the arey endangering themselves. To persist in sin is a clear danger to ones soul.

Thanks David.



Yes, I agree that it is loving to warn someone who is ignorant of her sin, but is it merciful? The current question raised is whether Jesus ever failed to show mercy. Another question: If He was at times not merciful, then should we at times withhold mercy, too?

 

[tonyrey]

Fascinating! Yes, I see! You’ve opened my eyes to something, my friend. Thank you! You see, I was thinking that one might always show mercy to everyone unconditionally. Yet, Jesus did not appear to show mercy to hypocrites. For mercy is leniency, and He was not lenient at times, perhaps. I mean, consider these words of His: 13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

(Matthew 23)He calls them hypocrites, blind guides, sons of Hell, walking dead, snakes, hell-bound! Not words or Mercy–or are they? I wonder. If self-righteous people were deceived into thinking they were right with God (when they were really living for the Devil) would it be merciful to not shock them and try to wake them up so that they might see the truth and repent and live? I mean, I wonder if not warning them would have been the most hateful and harshest thing Jesus could have done. If warning them is not merciful, then perhaps it was love of a different kind? What do you think?

Jesus knew He was going to crucified as a result of evil and hatred - just like the prophets. That explains why He felt so strongly about hypocrisy, self-righteousness and pride, the most pernicious vice of all because the proud think they alone determine what is good or evil, right or wrong, just or unjust - and act accordingly.

Jesus foresaw the fate of Jerusalem and all the cruelty that was to come. He stressed the danger of hell so emphatically that people condemn Christianity as a religion based on fear. Yet all the atrocities committed before and since His death confirm the horrific reality of evil. Our bloodstained history led Arthur Koestler to believe there is a streak of insanity in the human race. He was right but it is culpable insanity because we have a conscience.

God is infinitely loving and infinitely merciful but He is also infinitely just. It is absurd to think anyone who has delighted in the deliberate torture and murder of men, women and children should escape scotfree without being made to understand what it is like to endure needless terror and agony. It is not a primitive desire for revenge but a recognition of the diabolical nature of cruelty and the inevitable consequence of abusing our freedom. When we harm others we do far more harm to ourselves because we gradually become inhuman, incapable of being humane and isolate ourselves from humanity. Jesus would have been unjust, unmerciful and unloving if He had not warned us about the dangers of loving ourselves to the extent of failing to love others.

 

[spockrates]

Jesus knew He was going to crucified as a result of evil and hatred - just like the prophets. That explains why He felt so strongly about hypocrisy, self-righteousness and pride, the most pernicious vice of all because the proud think they alone determine what is good or evil, right or wrong, just or unjust - and act accordingly.

Jesus foresaw the fate of Jerusalem and all the cruelty that was to come. He stressed the danger of hell so emphatically that people condemn Christianity as a religion based on fear. Yet all the atrocities committed before and since His death confirm the horrific reality of evil. Our bloodstained history led Arthur Koestler to believe there is a streak of insanity in the human race. He was right but it is culpable insanity because we have a conscience.

God is infinitely loving and infinitely merciful but He is also infinitely just. It is absurd to think anyone who has delighted in the deliberate torture and murder of men, women and children should escape scotfree without being made to understand what it is like to endure needless terror and agony. It is not a primitive desire for revenge but a recognition of the diabolical nature of cruelty and the inevitable consequence of abusing our freedom. When we harm others we do far more harm to ourselves because we gradually become inhuman, incapable of being humane and isolate ourselves from humanity. Jesus would have been unjust, unmerciful and unloving if He had not warned us about the dangers of loving ourselves to the extent of failing to love others.

Tony:

Thanks for the reply; will you please clarify? When you say, “God is infinitely loving and infinitely merciful…” do you mean that God is has infinite *potential *mercy or that God has infinite *actual *mercy?

 

[tonyrey]

Tony:

Thanks for the reply; will you please clarify? When you say, “God is infinitely loving and infinitely merciful…” do you mean that God is has infinite *potential *mercy or that God has infinite *actual *mercy?

Actual. He forgives us as we forgive others.

 

[spockrates]

Actual. He forgives us as we forgive others.

But if God’s forgiveness is infinitely actual, then we all receive the actual and full forgiveness of God, don’t we? That would mean that those who forgive, as well as those who don’t forgive, and you, and I, and the saints, as well as the most evil of men now in Hell, all have the unlimited measure of God’s forgiveness!



Do you think those suffering in Hell are as forgiven as the saints in Heaven? If suffering eternally in Hell is being forgiven, then who would want God’s forgiveness?



I’m thinking God’s forgiveness must be actually unlimited for some, but only potentially unlimited for others. What do you think?

 

[tonyrey]

But if God’s forgiveness is infinitely actual, then we all receive the full forgiveness of God, don’t we? That would mean that those who forgive, as well as those who don’t forgive, and you, and I, and the saints, and the most evil of men now in Hell all have the full and unlimited measure of God’s forgiveness!


Do you think those suffering in Hell are as forgiven as the saints in Heaven? If suffering eternally in Hell is being forgiven, then who would want God’s forgiveness?

There are no limits to God’s love or forgiveness but there are limits to ours!
We are the ones who place the obstacles between Him and ourselves. We have the astonishing power to frustrate His Will and reject Him for all eternity. All love entails suffering and God’s love is no exception.

 

[spockrates]

There are no limits to God’s love or forgiveness but there are limits to ours!
We are the ones who place the obstacles between Him and ourselves. We have the astonishing power to frustrate His Will and reject Him for all eternity. All love entails suffering and God’s love is no exception.

Yes, so those who reject His love and forgiveness must be only potentially forgiven, rather than actually forgiven, I think. What do you think?

 

[spockrates]

It’s OK to change your mind; I do it all the time!