They are actually forgiven as far as God is concerned but they choose to make themselves unforgivable! It takes two to achieve unity…
But I’m confused.They are actually forgiven as far as God is concerned but they choose to make themselves unforgivable! It takes two to achieve unity…
And He also takes those who pray that they may be forgiven **as **they forgive others at their word - which is not into heaven!
So I assumed that, since God forgives *as *we forgive others, He then does *not *forgive as we do *not *forgive others. Now you appear to be saying the opposite: God forgives even if we don’t forgive others!Actual. He forgives us as we forgive others.
It’s amazing how difficult it is to define a concept that we all seem to at least apprehend.What he is saying is this: Before you or I can explain how to do something, we must first figure out what that something is. Applying this recommendation to our dialog, I’d say that before we can adequately express how to forgive, we must first figure out what forgiveness is.
As Jesus is God, who is perfect, He can never fail to show mercy. Based on this your second question is moot.Thanks David.
Yes, I agree that it is loving to warn someone who is ignorant of her sin, but is it merciful? The current question raised is whether Jesus ever failed to show mercy. Another question: If He was at times not merciful, then should we at times withhold mercy, too?
God is infinitely merciful but He is also infinitely just. So He forgives everyone but He does not forgive everyone to the same extent. Those who not forgive others make themselves unforgivable to the precise extent that they are unforgiving.But I’m confused.
Earlier, you said:
So I assumed that, since God forgives *as *we forgive others, He then does *not *forgive as we do *not *forgive others. Now you appear to be saying the opposite: God forgives even if we don’t forgive others!
I’m sure I’m just misunderstanding you. Please alleviate my confusion and tell me plainly: Does God forgive all–even those who refuse to forgive others?
To forgive is to respond lovingly to a thought, action or omission which has harmed you (or was intended to harm you). It literally means “to give completely”, i.e. not to expect anything in return: no form of atonement or compensation for the offence - unless you believe the offender will not improve if he does not have to make amends. To forgive is not to forget or to forsake fairness. It is to put the other person’s welfare before any desire for revenge or retribution.Tony:
I think that the Father of Philosophy Socrates has some advice that will help us better express our ideas:
No matter what the subject, there is for those who wish to deliberate well upon it always one and the same starting point: You must know what it is you are deliberating about, or you will inevitably fail altogether. Most people, however, are not aware of their ignorance of a thing’s essential nature, and because they think they know all about it, they fail to secure agreement about the premises of their inquiry at its beginning. As they proceed, they reap the predictable harvest of this oversight: They disagree with one another and even contradict themselves. Now, you and I must not be guilty of this fundamental error that we condemn in others …
(Phaedrus, 237)What he is saying is this: Before you or I can explain how to do something, we must first figure out what that something is. Applying this recommendation to our dialog, I’d say that before we can adequately express how to forgive, we must first figure out what forgiveness is.
So please tell me, Tony: What do you think forgiveness is?
Wonderful words, JR! (and good to hear from you again). I’ve often spoke the idiom, “Nobody is perfect,” but when I hear words like yours, and other words spoken like a true Thomist, I wonder whether their is truth in that idiom.My dear friend,
In my opinion forgiveness is but a stepping stone on the path to perfection. Human perfection is the absence of evil in man. And whilst you may see and experience evil, once your perfect forgivenes is so perfected and complete you absolutely excuse evil as if it didn’t happen. Forgiveness is a life long struggle on the path to human perfection , once attained it is a way of life , intuitive on auto pilot sort of. Gods forgivenes of us will be as we forgive others. If we work towards this goal our forgiveness by God will be so complete if we achieve it we will be completely forgiven. A sure path straight to heaven , we’re we don’t need our imperfct love purified in purgatory , because our love is already perfect. Love unites , and to unite it must forgive without measure. Evil divides. 3 great rules for life are – don’t judge , be merciful and forgive ,if you do this perfectly you have attained the perfection of charity which is love. The spiritual life and Gods law can be summed up in one word , when that one word is properly undersood - Love.
Hope this helps dear friend.
God bless and Love you
John
Yes, and four consecutive discussion threads! Even more amazing is that we keep using the words forgiving, forgiveness, and other forms of the word forgive without really knowing for certain what the word means! Reminds me of a dialog Socrates had with an acquaintance of his:
Well, it’s not that I think that mercy is a kind of forgiveness–it’s that I wonder. I’m a Christian first, but also a philosopher second, and as Socrates said:
Excellent! Yes, that’s the ticket that will buy us a seat on Forgiven Flight 777! There are different extents, or degrees, or perhaps ways to forgive. Well said, Tony Ray. Your wisdom has shown the way to our destination truth.God is infinitely merciful but He is also infinitely just. So He forgives everyone but He does not forgive everyone to the same extent. Those who not forgive others make themselves unforgivable to the precise extent that they are unforgiving.
Yes, that is a good start. The only change I’d suggest is that instead of saying that forgiving is “to give completely,” I’d suggest changing this to say that forgiving is “to give to the extent that is justified.” For I think you are justified in saying that there one can forgive to different extents.
Of course. I like your delightful image of Forgiveness Airport on Paradise Island. :clapping:Yes, that is a good start. The only change I’d suggest is that instead of saying that forgiving is “to give completely,” I’d suggest changing this to say that forgiving is “to give to the extent that is justified.” For I think you are justified in saying that there one can forgive to different extents.
All we have to do now is to explain what the different extents (or ways to forgive) are, and then determine when each of these extents (or ways) is justified. We will then have a more perfect understanding of what forgiveness is, and the different ways to forgive, and when to forgive in one way, but not in another. And we will arrive at Forgiveness Airport on Paradise Island with wisdom in our minds, forgiveness in our hearts and smiles of satisfaction on our faces! Don’t you agree?
My dear friend,Wonderful words, JR! (and good to hear from you again). I’ve often spoke the idiom, “Nobody is perfect,” but when I hear words like yours, and other words spoken like a true Thomist, I wonder whether their is truth in that idiom.
Would you say, then that we should do our best to obey Jesus’ words?
“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
(Matthew 5:48)
Would you even go so far as to agree with the disciples of Saint Thomas Aquinas that with divine mercy and divine assistance, such perfection is possible this side of eternity?
Well, then please take a stab at it. What is one way to forgive?
Yes, I understand and agree with all you have said!
D’oh! Ya’ lost me! If we have not realized (or achieved) our perfection, then how can we now be actually perfect? You mean that we are merely potentially perfect, don’t you?
Yes, I suppose it might be a long story. But I’m a philosopher, and like Socrates, I care not whether our words are many or few, so long as we find the truth. So sit with me awhile and tell me the tale of the heroes who were, and are, and forever will be as perfect as the God of Perfection.We are the oposite of reality in a sense to take care of the problem of evil which God cannot allow to exist , this is our real problem. So our whole world being outside reality , evil can exist but in reality it does not at all – it’s a delusion. It’s a very long story this. Great to see you dear friend. Soldier on , and live long and prosper
God bless and Love you
John
My dearest friend ,Yes, I understand and agree with all you have said!
http://www.tomtom.com/lib/voices/homer.jpg
D’oh! Ya’ lost me! If we have not realized (or achieved) our perfection, then how can we now be actually perfect? You mean that we are merely potentially perfect, don’t you?
http://www.allthatiknow.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/homer-simpson-doh.jpg
Yes, I suppose it might be a long story. But I’m a philosopher, and like Socrates, I care not whether our words are many or few, so long as we find the truth. So sit with me awhile and tell me the tale of the heroes who were, and are, and forever will be as perfect as the God of Perfection.
Thanks for the invitation.
Not sure I understand. If personal sins are not allowed to exist, then no one commits any personal sins, for they don’t exist.
But if evil does not exist, then there is no problem of evil, for no one does anything evil. Is this what you are trying to say?
Perhaps the truth you are trying to convey is eitherW do exist very really but our apparent imperfection is a delusion. Example : a man is dying any second at 90 y.o. and his whole life he has never done a single little thing wrong , bad or evil. Is he perfect? Yes. But in the delusion he is seriosly mentally ill , hunchbacked , crippled and horrifically deformed , and even outright obnoxious and difficult to put up with , but never guilty of any wrongdoing at all. Is he still perfect? No , but in reality he is perfect because once he has reality back he will be whole with no problems at all , once back in the garden of eden. Whilst we seem so imperfect here, in reality we are all absolutely perfect. We can lose our souls for now in this big game God has set up to sort out this problem of evil though. We need to be good still . Hope this answers your question. Let me know dear brother.
God bless and Love you
John