Forgiveness FAQ

[Socrates4Jesus]

I do believe that you should forgive even those who do not seek your forgiveness. After all didn’t Jesus tell St. Peter to forgive seven times seventy times. Reconciliation is another matter all together.

M

**The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant **21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?” 22Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. 23"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. 26"The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. 28"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. 29"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ 30"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. 32"Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”(Matthew 18:21-39)Yes, Michael (may i call you Michael? You may call me Soc, if you like) in fact, from what i have read of the rabbis of Jesus’ day, the consensus among them was that a person should forgive someone who commits the same sin against him only three times. “Three strikes and you’re out!” is the modern equivalent.

By suggesting forgiving a person up to seven times, St. Peter was actually advocating greater forgiveness than the conventional wisdom of his day. By saying, “not seven times, but seventy-seven times,” Jesus was teaching something outrageous to St. Peter. We do not think it is surprising, today, as we have heard it said so many times His words lose their meaning and make some yawn.

I can imagine Jesus seeing the shock on St. Peter’s face and smiling as He began to tell the parable. The point of the parable of the unmerciful servant, i think, is to show why St. Peter, you and i are to be so forgiving. A Bible teacher to whom i listen often says, “You can only love to the degree you are loved” and i think this is true. You might agree that it is also true that you and i can only forgive to the degree we have been forgiven. You and i can be so quick and generous with our forgiveness, because God is so quick and generous to forgive us. God’s grace, that is, His undeserved love, compels us to love the unloving and forgive those who do not deserve our mercy. This is what Jesus was saying to St. Peter, don’t you think?

Notice, however, that the king in the parable does not forgive the unmerciful servant for his lack of forgiveness. The king, i believe, is supposed to represent our Lord Jesus, who will come again to judge the living and the dead and His kingdom will have no end.

Since you and i are to be imitators of our Lord and king, i think it is OK, and even required, to not show mercy and forgiveness when the circumstances warrant this. The question to ask is what circumstances warrant that you and i not forgive? Determining the answer to this question is a purpose of my starting this discussion thread.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

There seem to be a lot of conditionals in that question but I will give it a try.

I would first say that it is possible to forgive someone but to still not trust them in certain situations. I may forgive a relative for borrowing money and not paying it back, but that doesn’t mean that I will lend them more money unless I thought I could get along even if they didn’t pay it back.

A person might forgive a spouse for being abusive but perhaps still not trust that the person would not be abusive again and so still not agree to live with that person.

Deciding to trust a person again depends on a lot of things like knowing what the worst possible case would be if the person failed the trust. If a person met certain conditions to regain trust then there would be more reason to trust again.

I would emphasis again that unconditional love and trust should only be given to God. No person, not a spouse who has always been faithful, a friend who has always been true, a parent who has always “been there”, noone should be given the whole hearted love and trust that only belongs to God. None of us are worthy of receiving that from another person. And the person who trusts that much in another person will ultimately be disappointed.

We are commanded to “love our neighbor as ourself.” which is not the same as loving and trusting with all our mind, heart, and soul.

peace

Jim

Jesus said some really amazing things about love that have been repeated so many times some people’s eyes glaze over when they hear them. It’s like mass that i remembered as a child (some of which i can still remember even though i have not stepped foot in the door of a Roman Catholic church since the funeral of my grandmother). Many people say the words without really thinking deeply about what they mean. The same is true of Protestant churches where the words of the Lord’s Prayer are said out loud in unison. One joy i get out of discussion forums like this is compelling people to really think about what Jesus meant by what he said. I may drive some to their wits end, but the end result can only be good for those who have the patience for it, and the effect on me is good, too, when i have ears to hear what others are trying to convey to me.

With this in mind, Jim, you mentioned that Jesus said that we should love our neighbors as we love ourselves. You said that love should be conditional (by this, i assume you mean that people must first meet certain conditions before you and i should love them). This sounds reasonable to me, but then Jesus blows my mind by saying

43"You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.(Matthew 5:43-48)Love my enemies? Enemies are people who hate me with a passion! Harming me and those i love is their aim. When i think of Jesus’ words, here, terrorists come to mind. I have great trouble wrapping my mind around the idea of loving those who have nothing but hate for me. The question i ask is, “How, Jesus, should i ever go about loving them?”

When Jesus says this, Jim, i’m sure you agree he is not talking about loving those who meet certain conditions first. What Jesus is saying is not whether we should love (for clearly he says we should love everyone, even those who loath us and want nothing more that to make us suffer). He does not leave you and i the option of not loving. Love is a requirement. I must love everyone. You, too, must love everyone, regardless of what they think, say and do. That leaves me with only one decision: How to love.

How do i love a terrorist who wants to see me dead, Jim?

 

[trogiah]

One joy i get out of discussion forums like this is compelling people to really think about what Jesus meant by what he said. I may drive some to their wits end, but the end result can only be good for those who have the patience for it, and the effect on me is good, too, when i have ears to hear what others are trying to convey to me.

With this in mind, Jim, you mentioned that Jesus said that we should love our neighbors as we love ourselves. You said that love should be conditional (by this, i assume you mean that people must first meet certain conditions before you and i should love them). This sounds reasonable to me, but then Jesus blows my mind by saying

43"You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.(Matthew 5:43-48)Love my enemies? Enemies are people who hate me with a passion! Harming me and those i love is their aim. When i think of Jesus’ words, here, terrorists come to mind. I have great trouble wrapping my mind around the idea of loving those who have nothing but hate for me. The question i ask is, “How, Jesus, should i ever go about loving them?”

When Jesus says this, Jim, i’m sure you agree he is not talking about loving those who meet certain conditions first. What Jesus is saying is not whether we should love (for clearly he says we should love everyone, even those who loath us and want nothing more that to make us suffer). He does not leave you and i the option of not loving. Love is a requirement. I must love everyone. You, too, must love everyone, regardless of what they think, say and do. That leaves me with only one decision: How to love.

How do i love a terrorist who wants to see me dead, Jim?

I think the word “Love” is so widely used that it is very easy to assume it has meanings in a certain situation when quite possibily it doesn’t. Fortunately, Jesus spells out in detail how to “love” someone who has (or intends to) do us wrong.

**If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. **
**16 **** If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ ****17 **If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

I believe this advice can be applied to any human being with whom we have contact. Not just those who are part of our church. It seems clear that we are not directed to simply put up with offensive behavior (which I think includes the behavior of a terrorist.) If such a person would actually listen to us long enough, we might try to talk them out of killing us. If they persist we could appeal to a wider audience. If nothing convinces a terrorist to give up trying to kill me then I think I can avoid that person and not feel like I am breaking any of Jesus’s commandments.

Jesus also says we should not throw our pearls before swine, they might attack us.

Jesus says that if someone rejects the gospel message that we should leave their presence and shake the dust off our feet in testimony against them.

Jesus does tell us to pray for our persecutors, and we can do that even as we keep our distance. Jesus does indicate that we should help anyone who is in basic human need, I suppose that includes a terrorist but I feel certain that Jesus does not ask us to give up our right to basic self-preservation. I suppose there is a chance we will be called to bear witness to our faith even when that does run the risk of injury or death. But I think our choice to accept that risk is done out of the Love of God rather than the love of any other person.

On a personal note, I can’t imagine the search for the true meaning of Jesus’s teaching to ever leave me at my wits end. That search has been the only thing that has kept me from reaching my wits end

peace

Jim

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… On a personal note, I can’t imagine the search for the true meaning of Jesus’s teaching to ever leave me at my wits end. That search has been the only thing that has kept me from reaching my wits end

peace

Jim

True, that!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Q. What conditions must someone meet before i should forgive her?

None. 70x7, etc.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*

Q. What conditions must someone meet before i should forgive her?*

None. 70x7, etc.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

RC:

If none, then why did our Lord Jesus teach us the following?

Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. So watch yourselves.
“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”
(Luke 17:1-4)
What condition does He say someone must meet before you and i forgive her?

 

[clmowry]

Repentance is a condition that God seems to have placed on being “forgiven” by God.

At the same time, he has required us to forgive even our enemies. We cannot forgive our enemies if they are required to repent first. If they did, they wouldn’t be our enemies any more.

So repentance is an act of the forgiven and is a requirement of being forgiven by God.

Any forgiver, other than God, has no right to claim repentance before forgiving the offender.

Chuck

Hey, Chuck. I’m not sure i understand what you mean by mixing up forgiving with receiving forgiveness. When you say “we are not involved in R” do you mean that we are not supposed to require others repent of the wrongs they have done to us before we forgive them?

Soc

 

[clmowry]

Jesus does not say here. “Don’t forgive anyone unless he asks for forgiveness.” He says if he asks for forgiveness then you should give it too him.

He’s placed the requirement on the forgiver not the forgiven.

The requirement might be implied, but its not explicitly made here.

In Mark 11:25 we are told: “When you stand to pray, forgive anyone against whom you have a grievance, so that your heavenly Father may in turn forgive you your transgressions.”

We are not told. Go find the guy whose offended you and if he repents then forgive him, if not, then don’t forgive him and then come back and finish the prayer.

In a similar way we are told to forgive in Luke 6:37 with no condition of repentance.

Chuck

RC:

If none, then why did our Lord Jesus teach us the following?

Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. So watch yourselves.

“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

(Luke 17:1-4)
What condition does He say someone must meet before you and i forgive her?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… At the same time, he has required us to forgive even our enemies. We cannot forgive our enemies if they are required to repent first. If they did, they wouldn’t be our enemies any more. …

Chuck:

I can think of no passage of the Bible that says, “Forgive your enemies” can you? Instead, what Jesus says is

"You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
(Matthew Matthew 5:42-45)
Do you think it is possible that all forgiveness is love but not all love is forgiveness?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Any forgiver, other than God, has no right to claim repentance before forgiving the offender.

Chuck:

If what you are saying is true, then why does Jesus say the following?

… If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.
(Luke 17:3-4, emphasis added)

If you and i have no right to require repentance from someone before we forgive him, then why does Jesus teach you and i to forgive somone only "if he repents"?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… In a similar way we are told to forgive in Luke 6:37 with no condition of repentance.

Chuck

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap.* For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you*.”

(Luke 6:37-38)

Chuck:

I think that the best interpretation of verse 37 is seen in the light of verse 38, don’t you? “For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” Jesus is not telling us to never judge anyone for the sins they commit, for elsewhere He explicitly tells us to judge those who sin. The point He is making in this passage is not to not judge but to be careful to judge fairly, for that is how God will judge you and me. As God judges us, so we should judge others, with love and fairness and hatred of sin (but not hatred of sinners).

What do you think?

 

[clmowry]

If you mean is it loving for us not to fogive?
No.

Chuck:

I can think of no passage of the Bible that says, “Forgive your enemies” can you? Instead, what Jesus says is

"You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
(Matthew Matthew 5:42-45)
Do you think it is possible that all forgiveness is love but not all love is forgiveness?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

If you mean is it loving for us not to fogive?
No.

I’m trying to understand you, Chuck. Are you saying you must forgive every sin, no matter how heinous, even if the person refuses to change? or are you saying it is OK not to love a person by forgiving him when he refuses to repent?

 

[clmowry]

We are called to forgive every sin.

Though I’m not suggesting this is easy to do.

I’m trying to understand you, Chuck. Are you saying you must forgive every sin, no matter how heinous, even if the person refuses to change? or are you saying it is OK not to love a person by forgiving him when he refuses to repent?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

We are called to forgive every sin.

Though I’m not suggesting this is easy to do.

Chuck:

Does God forgive every sin committed by every person, or does He only forgive the sins of which they repent?

 

[clmowry]

As I’ve said previously He does not explicitly tell us to judge others.

I see Him clearly saying just the opposite repeatedly.

He does explicitly tell us to forgive those who ask for forgiveness.

That is not the same as explicitly telling us not to forgive those who do not.

vs. 38 seems to be a continuation of that theme.

I guess if you’d like the measure by which you are to be judged to be the perception of justice held by the one you’ve offended then you could take that approach.

I would prefer “free” undeserved forgiveness. The only condition God puts on that forgiveness is repentance. He can do so because He can see into our hearts.

We do not have the same right because we cannot.

Chuck

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap.* For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you*.”

(Luke 6:37-38)

Chuck:

I think that the best interpretation of verse 37 is seen in the light of verse 38, don’t you? “For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” Jesus is not telling us to never judge anyone for the sins they commit, for elsewhere He explicitly tells us to judge those who sin. The point He is making in this passage is not to not judge but to be careful to judge fairly, for that is how God will judge you and me. As God judges us, so we should judge others, with love and fairness and hatred of sin (but not hatred of sinners).

What do you think?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…I would prefer “free” undeserved forgiveness. The only condition God puts on that forgiveness is repentance. He can do so because He can see into our hearts.

We do not have the same right because we cannot.

Chuck

Chuck:

Does St. Paul tell us that we are to forgive others the same way God forgives us?

Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
(Ephesians 4:32)

… Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
(Colossians 3:13)

 

[mikeledes]

We are not to judge people period.

James 4:11-12

11Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[clmowry]

We are just going in circles here.

We can forgive “like” God in that it is free and undiserved.

We can not forgive “the same way” God does because we are not God.

Let me try me one more time.

If I ask your forgiveness how do you know I’ve actually repented?
Perhaps I’m only trying to trick you into granting your forgiveness to avoid the punishment associated with the offense.

God can you tell the difference? We cannot. Why would God place an unverifyable requirement on our granting of forgiveness?

There are plenty of places in scripture where we are told to forgive and not to judge and no requirement is stipulated.

It is in my best interest that I forive someone, it is an act of Charity, an act of Love. I am not commanded to withhold an act of love from anyone until they do “X”.

I may chose not to perform that act but why would that be a good thing in any way?

Chuck

Chuck

Chuck:

Does St. Paul tell us that we are to forgive others the same way God forgives us?

Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
(Ephesians 4:32)

… Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
(Colossians 3:13)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

We are not to judge people period.

James 4:11-12

**11Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him **speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

God Bless,
Michael

Hey, Michael (still love that name), good to see your posts, again!

If i follow what you say to its logical conclusion, then i would have to believe that a Roman Catholic can never serve on a jury, or hold a judicial position, or be a good boss by firing someone who deserves to be fired, or do any number of things that good people are sometimes required to do. Are not all these examples of judging people?

Please, consider our Lord’s words carefully:

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”

(Matthew 5:1-5)
Our Loving Judge does not stop at “Do not judge, or you to will be judged” for He goes on to say, “For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” Moreover, He does not stop at “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye?” but He goes on to say, “You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”

Please, Michael, open your eyes (if you have eyes to see) and understand that Jesus is not telling us to never hold a person responsible for her sin. What He is telling us, rather, is to not judge unfairly or hypocritically. You and i should judge, but only as a last resort, such as when the person refuses to repent. However, when we must judge someone, we should always do so the way we would want others to judge us if we committed the same sins.

Does not the leadership of the Roman Catholic church excommunicate those who refuse to repent? Are not these leaders who decide who is excommunicated required by God to judge, but to do so fairly and without hypocrisy?