Forgiveness FAQ

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Now, Michael, if you will do as you asked me to do, please answer this question:

🤷

Q. 7a. Is forgiveness an attribute of love, or a result of love, or both, or neither?"
Forgiveness is an expression of love.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Nah…that just means “bump the thread back to the top of the list so it gets your attention.”

Bump Bump…hehe

Chuck
If bump means ban me from the forum, i’d like to ask why. Do you think i should be banned because:

A. I’m mistaken in what i think might be the truth

B. I’m being unloving to you or others

C. Some other reason

Please explain, RC.

😦
 
I guess I don’t “suffer” from a philosphical linguistic point of view.

We’ve been down this road already.

To say “If someone asks for forgiveness, forgive them” is NOT the same as saying “Don’t forgive someone who does not ask for forgiveness.”

This is why “all” of scripture (and Apostolic Tradition) must be taken into account when interpreting scriptue.

Sola Scriptua, especially when it becomes “Sola-verse-or-two-a” just doesn’t work.

Even if you do want to place more faith in your linguistic skills, you need to do it in the language of the authors.

IF the original Greek (or Aramaic?) did not make it explicit that we should not forgive those that don’t repent, then you cannot draw the definitive conclusion you try to draw.

It is clear to me that the totality of scripture and Church teaching points toward unconditional forgiveness of one another.

God gets to judge. We can not forgive “exactly” like God does. We are not God.

I think somebody said it much better than I in post 130.

Chuck
Thank you, Chuck. I will check out reply 130. In return, will you tell me whether the Roman Catholic church teaches that Forgiveness is or is not an attribute or act of love?
 
… This is tricky. You are trying to understand the mind and prerogative of the Amighty God. This is impossible. You may certainly speculate, but a doctrinal stance on what conditions exist which would not require you to forgive a brother is potentially dangerous. …
Yes, Jane, i agree there is a risk in trying to know Jesus—to know how He thinks, to try to think as He does, imitate Him and be a man or woman after His own heart. The potential for misunderstanding Him is great. However, taking this risk in getting to know Him is one that i sincerely believe He wants me to take. It is a risk i want to take, and have taken in various degrees my entire life. St. Paul said

What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.(Philippians 3:8-11, emphasis added)and the Jesus whose thoughts i long to understand reminds me in His prayer

“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”(John 17:3, emphasis added)I cannot know my wife without listening to what she says and trying to understand what she says and taking every word to heart and doing my best to become the kind of husband she needs me to be. Likewise, i cannot know my Jesus without listening to what He says and trying to understand what He says and taking every word to heart and doing my best to become the kind of child He wants me to be. Yes i agree i’m taking a risk in trying to know Him, but i can do nothing less, for He did nothing less for me.
 
Forgiveness is an expression of love.

God Bless,
Michael
Thank you, Michael! In another reply, you asked me what forgiveness means. This is what i am asking you, and Jane, and David, and Chuck, and the other Michael, and everyone who cares to answer. You have now told me forgiveness means an expression of love. You and i can express ourselves by either what i say or do, which are actions. So, you appear to agree with the others that forgiveness is an attribute or act of love.

Forgiveness is an attribute or act of love
3

Forgiveness is not an attribute nor an act of love
0
 
Nah…that just means “bump the thread back to the top of the list so it gets your attention.”

Bump Bump…hehe

Chuck
Cool. I was hoping my faith in your forgiving nature was not in vain! 😃

Chuck, i really would like your opinion. Will you answer this question as the other three have?

🤷

Q. 7a. Is forgiveness an attribute of love, or a result of love, or both, or neither?"
 
I forgave the man who molested me, he was my mother’s sister’s husband. (I can no longer call him my uncle.) It took me a long time, but it was through the grace of God that i did, and i am better for it. It took me a long time. My mother told me how she had forgiven him and i could not fathom that my adoring, devoted, loving mother could forgive the man who molested her 5 yr old little girl for 3 years roughly… Ooh how that hurt! I felt betrayed. She told me many, many times how we must forgive and i had always been a forgiving person - but him! NEVER!!!
I was preparing to get married and hadn’t seen him for many years, when i took my flowergirl into a shop to buy her a drink and he was there and he said hello and was staring at Gemma… I grabbed her, ran out of the shop and waited for him to come out and i loudly verbally attacked him… It had been coming for years… I told him and anyone who heard that he was a child molester…And i felt better for it at the time as i had never confronted him.

He saw my brother later that week and purposely stopped him and told him that ‘his sister’ was crazy shouting things at the shopping centre…

Anyway, i put it behind me, got married and had started to pray to God to give me the grace to be able to truly forgive this man. I fell pregnant and knew that it was not good for my unborn child growing inside me to feel my anger and hurt… i woke up Easter Sunday morning feeling ‘lighter’ and i knew that i had truly forgiven this man. It is amazing what God can do for you - if you allow him. 😃

I can vouch that life is so much lighter and enjoyable without the added baggage of carrying years of hurt and anger around…

I know a Catholic lady whose son was murdered and she forgave the man who took away her beloved only son’s life, and only child i believe.
 
I forgave the man who molested me, he was my mother’s sister’s husband. (I can no longer call him my uncle.) It took me a long time, but it was through the grace of God that i did, and i am better for it. It took me a long time. My mother told me how she had forgiven him and i could not fathom that my adoring, devoted, loving mother could forgive the man who molested her 5 yr old little girl for 3 years roughly… Ooh how that hurt! I felt betrayed. She told me many, many times how we must forgive and i had always been a forgiving person - but him! NEVER!!!
I was preparing to get married and hadn’t seen him for many years, when i took my flowergirl into a shop to buy her a drink and he was there and he said hello and was staring at Gemma… I grabbed her, ran out of the shop and waited for him to come out and i loudly verbally attacked him… It had been coming for years… I told him and anyone who heard that he was a child molester…And i felt better for it at the time as i had never confronted him.

He saw my brother later that week and purposely stopped him and told him that ‘his sister’ was crazy shouting things at the shopping centre…

Anyway, i put it behind me, got married and had started to pray to God to give me the grace to be able to truly forgive this man. I fell pregnant and knew that it was not good for my unborn child growing inside me to feel my anger and hurt… i woke up Easter Sunday morning feeling ‘lighter’ and i knew that i had truly forgiven this man. It is amazing what God can do for you - if you allow him. 😃

I can vouch that life is so much lighter and enjoyable without the added baggage of carrying years of hurt and anger around…

I know a Catholic lady whose son was murdered and she forgave the man who took away her beloved only son’s life, and only child i believe.
Tweety:

I cannot imagine what you have gone through. I think Jesus would agree you were right to keep your daughter safe from the evil man, for as St. Paul said, “Love … always protects” (1 Corinthians 13).

I trust that Jesus will judge the man if he never repents. I also know that Jesus tells you and me to love even our enemies. He is certainly an enemy of you and any others that he has harmed and might harm.

If it is too personal a pair of questions to ask, please do not answer. What do you think is the appropriate way to love him if he never repents? What do you think is the appropriate way to love those he might soon molest? They’re not easy questions, and your answer is none of my business. They’re just something to think about.
 
🤷

Q. 7a. Is forgiveness an attribute of love, or an act of love, or both, or neither?

So far the vote is

Forgiveness is an attribute or act of love
3

Forgiveness is not an attribute nor an act of love
0

Does anyone else care to participate in the pole and help me find the best definition of what forgiveness is?
 
If bump means ban me from the forum, i’d like to ask why. Do you think i should be banned because:

A. I’m mistaken in what i think might be the truth

B. I’m being unloving to you or others

C. Some other reason

Please explain, RC.

😦
“bump” is a term which is used to indicate that the post is being moved back to the top of the active list of threads so that it isn’t lost or overlooked.

In this particular case, I “bumped” with you name included because I am hoping you will address my post instead of missing or ignoring it.

It has nothing to do with requesting that you be banned. Instead, I am hoping that you will be here long enough to be converted. 😛

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
“bump” is a term which is used to indicate that the post is being moved back to the top of the active list of threads so that it isn’t lost or overlooked.

In this particular case, I “bumped” with you name included because I am hoping you will address my post instead of missing or ignoring it.

It has nothing to do with requesting that you be banned. Instead, I am hoping that you will be here long enough to be converted. 😛

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
Please forgive my ignorance and carlessness, RC. Please repeat your question and i will answer it. In turn i hope you will do the same for me and answer my question:

🤷

Q. 7a. Is forgiveness an attribute of love, or an act of love, or both, or neither?

Thanks. 🙂
 
Please forgive my ignorance and carlessness, RC. Please repeat your question and i will answer it. In turn i hope you will do the same for me and answer my question:

🤷

Q. 7a. Is forgiveness an attribute of love, or an act of love, or both, or neither?
Thanks. 🙂
Clicking on the little blue > next to my name in the quoted passage will take you to the post that you have quoted me from. Once there, you can click again to go to the post that I quoted and so on…

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
Clicking on the little blue > next to my name in the quoted passage will take you to the post that you have quoted me from. Once there, you can click again to go to the post that I quoted and so on…

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
Thank you. And the answer to question 7a?
 
I believe that “Forgiving” is and “Act of Charity (Love)”.

I was trying to see if there is anything “explicit” defining the relationship between Love and Forgiving / Forgiveness in the Catechism. Some sections come awfully “close” but I don’t think they give a “crystal clear” teaching on the relationship. The following seem to make it at least “implicitly” clear that “Church Teaching” is that “Forgiveness” is and “Act of Charity/Love” and that the requirements to “Love” apply to “Forgiveness” as a subset of “Loving”.

From the CCC:

1825 Christ died out of love for us, while we were still “enemies.” The Lord asks us to love as he does, even our enemies, to make ourselves the neighbor of those farthest away, and to love children and the poor as Christ himself.

1933 This same duty extends to those who think or act differently from us.** The teaching of Christ goes so far as to require the forgiveness of offenses. He extends the commandment of love, which is that of the New Law, to all enemies**. Liberation in the spirit of the Gospel is incompatible with hatred of one’s enemy as a person, but not with hatred of the evil that he does as an enemy.

1968 The Law of the Gospel fulfills the commandments of the Law. The Lord’s Sermon on the Mount, far from abolishing or devaluing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law, releases their hidden potential and has new demands arise from them: it reveals their entire divine and human truth. It does not add new external precepts, but proceeds to reform the heart, the root of human acts, where man chooses between the pure and the impure, where faith, hope, and charity are formed and with them the other virtues. The Gospel thus brings the Law to its fullness through imitation of the perfection of the heavenly Father, through forgiveness of enemies and prayer for persecutors, in emulation of the divine generosity.

2227 Children in turn contribute to the growth in holiness of their parents. Each and everyone should be generous and tireless in forgiving one another for offenses, quarrels, injustices, and neglect. Mutual affection suggests this. The charity of Christ demands it.

2447 The works of mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in his spiritual and bodily necessities. Instructing, advising, consoling, comforting are spiritual works of mercy, as are forgiving and bearing wrongs patiently……

2843 Thus the Lord’s words on forgiveness, the love that loves to the end, become a living reality. The parable of the merciless servant, which crowns the Lord’s teaching on ecclesial communion, ends with these words: “So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” It is there, in fact, “in the depths of the heart,” that everything is bound and loosed. It is not in our power not to feel or to forget an offense; but the heart that offers itself to the Holy Spirit turns injury into compassion and purifies the memory in transforming the hurt into intercession.

2844 Christian prayer extends to the forgiveness of enemies, transfiguring the disciple by configuring him to his Master. Forgiveness is a high-point of Christian prayer; only hearts attuned to God’s compassion can receive the gift of prayer. Forgiveness also bears witness that, in our world, love is stronger than sin. The martyrs of yesterday and today bear this witness to Jesus. Forgiveness is the fundamental condition of the reconciliation of the children of God with their Father and of men with one another.

2845 There is no limit or measure to this essentially divine forgiveness, whether one speaks of “sins” as in Luke (11:4), or “debts" as in Matthew (6:12). We are always debtors: “Owe no one anything, except to love one another.” The communion of the Holy Trinity is the source and criterion of truth in every relationship. It is lived out in prayer, above all in the Eucharist.

Chuck
Q. 7a. Is forgiveness an attribute of love, or a result of love, or both, or neither?"
 
Yes, Jane, i agree there is a risk in trying to know Jesus—to know how He thinks, to try to think as He does, imitate Him and be a man or woman after His own heart.
With whom do you agree? Once again, you have inserted a nuance and twisted my meaing to exhibit something which I neither stated nor intended.

This is what I said:
You may certainly speculate, but a doctrinal stance on what conditions exist which would not require you to forgive a brother is potentially dangerous.
To be sure, being a Christian is dangerous. To know Christ is to carry His Cross. But, this was not the meaning of my statement.

For you to believe that you have the foundational knowledge, understanding and wisdom to judge as God judges is dangerous in a different way. The danger of judgement, for you, is based on an exposition of vanity and pride which always leads to death. The danger of knowing Christ is based on self-sacrifice and perfecting love which always lead to Life.

No matter how well you “know Jesus,” you can never know what he knows. He is God. Only God can know the depths of man’s heart and mind.

Socrates4Jesus, I have no idea, beyond distraction, why you would need to expound on the necessity and logistics of knowing Jesus (or your wife, for that matter). No one here disagrees.

As Christians, we are instructed to know, love and serve our God above everything and everyone else.

HOWEVER, this is the not the topic of this thread. . . in this thread, we are talking about whether or not you have the option of not forgiving a brother.

Thus far, you have asserted that it is, indeed, your option to forgive or not forgive a brother.

The traditional Christian position reflects Christ’s teaching:

“Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us” Luke 11:4.
 
If it is too personal a pair of questions to ask, please do not answer.
As this particular subject is similar to an experience in my own family, I feel qualified to respond as well. . .
What do you think is the appropriate way to love him if he never repents?
Just as you quoted from Sacred Scripture:

“Love … always protects” (1 Corinthians 13)

The appropriate way to love an unrepentant sinner, especially in the case of a molester of children, is to do everything you can to protect him from the occasion of sin. This means, within your power to do so, to remove the temptations and opportunities to sin.

Specifically, to protect this unrepentant sinner you must make every effort to never allow him access to children.

Out of love, it would also be appropriate to report any crimes committed to the proper authorities so that this unrepentant sinner may be dealt with in accordance with the laws and protective provisions set in place. These sorts of measures are not only protective for a vicitim, but also for a criminal as they often can serve to protect him from himself and the weakness of his fallen nature.

Because of love, it would be appropriate to pray protective prayers asking God to deliver this man from any temptation.

The ability to love, forgive, and have mercy on an unrepentant sinner is impossible without grace. Even as a victim struggles with forgiveness, one can pray fervantly for the grace to desire to forgive. Given the grave nature of such sins, forgiveness is often a process which is healing for the victim regardless of the sinner’s state of repentance.
What do you think is the appropriate way to love those he might soon molest?
In the same way, loving a victim, especially a child, involves removing the opportunity for the sinner to perpetrate the sin and crime. This means, in most cases, to NEVER EVER allow this child to be within physical proximity to this person. This also means, warning the child about potential dangers. This also means, warning others about potential dangers and lovingly creating a circle of support and protection around a victim or potential victim.

For those who have already been absued, violated, and sinned against, it is both healing and protective to encourage a proper understanding of forgiveness. Theraputic measures may also be an appropriate and loving avenue to explore.

It also mean, in the case of a crime, to seek proper civic justice and protective measures for a potential victim.

And, of course, love which protects also prays.
 
I believe that “Forgiving” is and “Act of Charity (Love)”.

I was trying to see if there is anything “explicit” defining the relationship between Love and Forgiving / Forgiveness in the Catechism. Some sections come awfully “close” but I don’t think they give a “crystal clear” teaching on the relationship. The following seem to make it at least “implicitly” clear that “Church Teaching” is that “Forgiveness” is and “Act of Charity/Love” and that the requirements to “Love” apply to “Forgiveness” as a subset of “Loving”.
Thank you, Chuck. I’ll add your vote to the unscientific pole:

Forgiveness is an attribute or act of love
4

Forgiveness is not an attribute nor an act of love
0
 
If he repents, then you should forgive him while he is standing there asking for your forgiveness.

If he does not repent, then you should forgive him in your heart even if you never see him again for the rest of your life.

Is this not obvious as to how we should love even those who harm us?

46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

May the Lord add His blessing to the reading of His Holy Word.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
RC:

Is this the question you would like me to answer, or is there another?
 
… For you to believe that you have the foundational knowledge, understanding and wisdom to judge as God judges is dangerous in a different way. The danger of judgement, for you, is based on an exposition of vanity and pride which always leads to death. The danger of knowing Christ is based on self-sacrifice and perfecting love which always lead to Life.

No matter how well you “know Jesus,” you can never know what he knows. He is God. Only God can know the depths of man’s heart and mind.
I believe, Jane, your disagreement is not with me. It is not my opinion that you and i should try to forgive as God forgives, it is the opinion of St. Paul. Your argument, then, is with him, for he wrote

Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

(Ephesians 4:32)

and as you quoted him earlierBear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

(Colossians 3:13)

What does it mean, Jane, to forgive “just as in Christ God forgave you”?
 
Thank you, Chuck. I’ll add your vote to the unscientific pole:

Forgiveness is an attribute or act of love
4

Forgiveness is not an attribute nor an act of love
0
I believe i have been most unfair! I have neglected to give all the authors of the CCC a vote, Chuck. I shall remedy this right now:

Forgiveness is an attribute of love or act of love
5

Forgiveness is not an attribute of love nor an act of love
0

😃

Does anyone else want to give their vote as to the essential nature of forgiveness? Once all the votes are in and we have a definition of forgiveness on which we can keep our eyes, we should proceed to inquire as to how this definition applies to the question of how we should forgive.
 
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