Forgiveness FAQ

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clmowry said:
When looking at the list I really don’t know which one we can take off as “not” being an attribute of forgiveness.

Certainly “keeps no record of wrong doing” seems to be the most applicable, but which one “doesn’t” apply?

At first glance, I thought “not boastful” or “not proud” or “not envious” might not apply. But then again, why will some often not forgive? Pride? Envy? Boastfullness? …
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Having established that it is not appropriate to love everyone in every way, but only in those ways that are appropriate and wise, i think it is important, at this point, to return to what you said earlier. As quoted in the above text, you reasoned (correctly, i believe) that forgiveness is, at the very least, keeping no record of wrongs.

But does forgiveness have all attributes or acts of love? To return to our metaphor, is forgiveness found in every tentacle of the octopus of love, or only in some tentacles with which she gently reaches out to the touch others? I believe you answered the question, Chuck, for you reasoned that forgiving a child molester does not mean that you trust the child molester to ever be alone with children again. Forgiveness does not always trust, though sometimes we might love someone by trusting him again, if he has repented and demonstrated that he can be trusted with our trust.

The truth you and i both recognize is that all forgiveness is love, but not all love is forgiveness. This appears to be true is forgiveness is at least one attribute or act of love, but not all attributes or acts of love are forgiveness.
 
The task before me (and one i hope you will fight at my side to win, Chuck) is to determine what attributes or acts of love are not forgiveness. If you and i learn this, then, by process of elimination, we will know what acts or attributes of love are forgiveness.

I asked God this morning how you and i might approach this battle for the truth about forgiveness so as to win the victory. Certainly we would need the sword of the Spirit (which is our weapon of reason, truth, the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit of God). In addition, we would need a battle plan. This is what came to me: We should consider an example of loving someone who has done nothing to warrant forgiveness. Any way that we might love such a person who does not need to be forgiven by you and i could safely be assumed to be love that is not forgiving.

The example i hope you will consider with me, Chuck, is that of a Monsignor i once knew. When i was a teen, this Monsignor visited our home. He was a kind and gentle man with a generous smile, a peaceful tone, and a humble attitude. I do not recall what he said, but i remember being impressed by the man as he spoke to my parents. I even envied his peaceful and joyful attitude. Now, this man was the perfect guest. He did nothing to me or my parents that we would have any need to forgive. How, then, should i have loved him in return without having to forgive him?

As mentioned earlier, we should love as St. Paul prescribes:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. (1 Corinthians 13:4-8)I did not need to forgive Monsignor, so how could i love him in ways that did not require forgiveness? I could have loved him by being
  • patient
  • kind
  • not envious
  • not boastful
  • not proud
  • not rude
  • not selfish
  • not easily angered
  • not delighting in evil
  • rejoicing with the truth
  • always trusting (or believing in) him
  • always hoping for the best from him
  • always persevering for him
  • never failing to love him
    The only two acts of love i could not appropriately give to Monsignor the day i met him were to
  • not keep a record of wrongs
  • always protect
    Now, am i able to remove either of these from the list of ways of love that require forgiveness? Yes, if a fire were to break out in the house and the Monsignor fell trying to get out and my father and i carried him outside the house to safety, then we would be loving him by protecting him, and no forgiveness would be necessary in this case, either.
By process of elimination, then, you and i are left with only one attribute or act of love that requires forgiveness, Chuck. So, unless you see some truth about forgiveness to which i am blind, i believe it is right to say that

Forgiveness is only that attribute or act of love that keeps no record of wrongs. All other attributes or actions of love are ways that we love those we forgive, but are also ways that we love those who do not need our forgiveness. We should, of course, love those we forgive by being kind and patient with them. Being kind, however, is not forgiveness, it is kindness. Likewise, being patient is never forgiveness, it is patience. The only kind of love that is forgiveness is keeping no record of wrongs.

This seems to be the way that God Himself forgives us, as well, for my good friend St. David once sang that our Merciful Lord

… does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.(Psalm 103:10-12)And the writer of Hebrews quotes God as saying

“… I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”(Hebrews 8:12; see also Hebrews 10:17)Unless you have a reason to object, Chuck, i think we should say that we forgive as God forgives by remembering the sins of those who sinned against us no more. To forgive is to, in a sense, forget the wrongs done to us. It is to pardon and not penalize one for the sins she commits. This is what it means to “keep no record of wrongs” i believe. What do you think?
 
🤷

Q. 9. We should love those we forgive in every way that is wise. However, is forgiveness only that attribute or act of love that “keeps no record of wrongs” (1 Corinthians 13:4)?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
🤷

Q. 9. We should love those we forgive in every way that is wise. However, is forgiveness only that attribute or act of love that “keeps no record of wrongs” (1 Corinthians 13:4)?
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This question is for anyone, not just Chuck. 🙂
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Yes, she has recovered. Thank you. We are making the trip to New York state to visit her and other relatives this summer, and i’m looking forward to see her again.

Regarding your computer, it sounds like a video driver problem. Updating the driver might cure it. It might also be the screen saver is corrupted. Switching to a different screen saver or to no screen saver might do the trick. There are other possible causes. I’d suggest going to a site like computerhope.com/forum/
and posting a reply at the Windows, or hardware or drivers forum. Most of the people there are extremely helpful. GX1_Man is experienced, as is Patio (who is also a Catholic). Tell them pcdoc4christ sent you! 🙂
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THANK YOU! Just what i needed. 🙂 It only does it when i am on the internet… CAF sometimes… Maybe i spend too much time here and that’s why it’s doing it…😃

God bless you.

Tweety
 
Tweety said:
THANK YOU! Just what i needed. 🙂 It only does it when i am on the internet… CAF sometimes… Maybe i spend too much time here and that’s why it’s doing it…😃

God bless you.

Tweety
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Blessings to you, too, Tweety!

Embrace the grace,
Soc
🙂
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Blessings to you, too, Tweety!

Embrace the grace,
Soc
🙂
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As we say in Australia - Cheers Mate!

Hope you are finding the answers to your question about forgiveness. I am not that learned in verse and scripture, i just know how things are in my heart. But i do know that Love is from God and God is good. Speaking of that… our old parish priest Fr Alex used to get all the elderly parishioners worked up as when we had a school mass, at the end when it was all over, he would get all the kids to shout out “God is good all the time, and all the time God is good!”

Housework day… Aaaagh!

Tweets
 
Tweety said:
As we say in Australia - Cheers Mate!

Hope you are finding the answers to your question about forgiveness. I am not that learned in verse and scripture, i just know how things are in my heart. But i do know that Love is from God and God is good. Speaking of that… our old parish priest Fr Alex used to get all the elderly parishioners worked up as when we had a school mass, at the end when it was all over, he would get all the kids to shout out “God is good all the time, and all the time God is good!”

Housework day… Aaaagh!

Tweets
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I’ve been to Israel and Italy and Austria, but never Australia. I’d like to go some day. The closest i’ll probably get is gazing at the joeys in our local zoo.

Cheers mate! (Are gals mates too?)

😃
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
I’ve been to Israel and Italy and Austria, but never Australia. I’d like to go some day. The closest i’ll probably get is gazing at the joeys in our local zoo.

Cheers mate! (Are gals mates too?)

😃
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You must try to come down here… while we still have some water! The drought is killing us and our land… But we are the dryest continent on earth. 😦 Our wildlife is beautiful. I am glad you have seen a little joey… they are so cute! Koalas can scratch… but they are sooo lovely to cuddle… ooh! Funny how people worldwide thought/think that we have kangaroos hopping down the road from house to house… That does happen, but not every day! They just jump out in front of your car and splat! They do so much damage to cars, being so big and heavy - especially the males! (And the way they box eathother… they should be in the olympics!) But moreso if you live near a rural area, or where there is a nature park etc… they will jump out in front, or you just see them jumping… over fences etc… not in the middle of Sydney say near the Opera House - on the outskirts more where the bush is…

Kangaroos are an actual pest down here… thousands and thousands of them have to be culled. I know it is not nice - but it has to be done. A bit like the deers in Canada i was once told… I live in the capital - Canberra and we are known as the Bush Capital… lots and lots of trees around.

Seeing that this is supposed to be a thread on ‘Forgiveness’… We have a new order of Priests formed in Canberra called the Missionaries of God’s Love. They are incredible and are already now in Manila and Malaysia… Their order is spreading fast… maybe one day they will be in the US too… They helped me too when it came to forgiveness… I was a submarine Catholic (you know the type that comes back to the surface at Easter, Christmas, when something goes wrong!) And they showed me a new side to our faith. With God’s help, my mother’s and their influence, especially the Parish Priest at the time…i came back to the Church wholly. They are so humble and have all taken vows of poverty… They are the most humblest human beings i have ever encountered! So Christ like! I pray that one day they will be all over the world spreading their love for Jesus. You **feel Jesus when you walk into their Church at St Benedicts…even if you are the only person there, you feel **surrounded in love. I have not felt that in every Church.

Yep, gals are also mates or matey like in the old pirate days… My mum doesn’t like it when i call my son mate… but she is from the old school… extremely ladylike and i wouldn’t have her any other way. God bless her! Your mate is your friend, your buddy, your best mate… not your sexual mate.

My beloved cousins live in Davie, Florida. Lidija has been in the US for 15 years, and Toni her brother for 5. She is a sister in a hospital, and he is studying psychology at uni. She has permanent residency in the US and we are praying that he will be granted the same one day. We are of Croatian heritage and they suffered greatly with the war over there. I have been to Croatia when i was 2 in 1968 and Capetown, Italy and i cannot remember where else… have to check with mum… Also went on a cruise to the Pacific Islands: Tonga, Fiji etc… back in 1974 with my family. I have beautiful memories of my daddy from that… ❤️

Would love to go to the US… DH and i have this thing for American Indians… “Bury my heart at Wounded Knee”. When i was little i wanted to be a squaw. I thought they were so pretty with their hair plaited…Loved the indians, and always wanted the cowboys to lose… hee hee 😃 Sorry to any cowboys out there!

Cheers Mate!
 
Tweety said:
You must try to come down here… while we still have some water! The drought is killing us and our land… But we are the dryest continent on earth. 😦 Our wildlife is beautiful. I am glad you have seen a little joey… they are so cute! Koalas can scratch… but they are sooo lovely to cuddle… ooh! Funny how people worldwide thought/think that we have kangaroos hopping down the road from house to house… That does happen, but not every day! They just jump out in front of your car and splat! They do so much damage to cars, being so big and heavy - especially the males! (And the way they box eathother… they should be in the olympics!) But moreso if you live near a rural area, or where there is a nature park etc… they will jump out in front, or you just see them jumping… over fences etc… not in the middle of Sydney say near the Opera House - on the outskirts more where the bush is…

Kangaroos are an actual pest down here… thousands and thousands of them have to be culled. I know it is not nice - but it has to be done. A bit like the deers in Canada i was once told… I live in the capital - Canberra and we are known as the Bush Capital… lots and lots of trees around. …
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LOL! I never thought a joey would be nearly as dumb as a deer. I imagine they are not so unwise as to stand in the middle of a highway staring into the headlights of an on coming truck. That’s what the deer throughout much of the northern states of America do. Rather than cull them, hunters shoot them and then make venison sausage out of them. Some say it is inhumane, but the alternative is to either cull them or let them starve during the winter.
 
Tweety said:
… Would love to go to the US… DH and i have this thing for American Indians… “Bury my heart at Wounded Knee”. When i was little i wanted to be a squaw. I thought they were so pretty with their hair plaited…Loved the indians, and always wanted the cowboys to lose… hee hee 😃 Sorry to any cowboys out there! Cheers Mate!
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There are places in the US where indians will dress up in traditional garb and sing songs and dance for the public. Most of them have day jobs and don’t live in out in the wild.

There are reservations still in the US where the tribes have their own police and court systems and local governments that are not under the jurisdiction of the US state or federal government. Ogdensburg, NY, is one such reservation. If you know about American history, you might recall that indians who were forced off their land were sent to live in reservations. To visit such a place today might prove to be a disappointment, however, for the people there have modern homes and schools and the like. They speak English, have satellites and TVs and computers, and live like most Americans. The main attraction of the reservations for Americans and tourists is that they are places where people can go to gamble, which is legal and a major source of income on most reservations. There are likely other reservations in the US where the people live in more traditional ways, too. If you ever visit the US you might want to do research to find out where these places are.
 
Tweety said:
… Seeing that this is supposed to be a thread on ‘Forgiveness’. We have a new order of Priests formed in Canberra called the Missionaries of God’s Love. They are incredible and are already now in Manila and Malaysia. Their order is spreading fast maybe one day they will be in the US too. They helped me too when it came to forgiveness. I was a submarine Catholic (you know the type that comes back to the surface at Easter, Christmas, when something goes wrong!) And they showed me a new side to our faith. With God’s help, my mother’s and their influence, especially the Parish Priest at the time i came back to the Church wholly. They are so humble and have all taken vows of poverty. They are the most humblest human beings i have ever encountered! So Christ like! I pray that one day they will be all over the world spreading their love for Jesus. You **feel Jesus when you walk into their Church at St Benedicts even if you are the only person there, you feel **surrounded in love. I have not felt that in every Church. …
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They sound like a group of people with whom i’d enjoy discussing forgiveness late into an evening. 👍

Tell me please, Matey, when they tell people to forgive, do you think they mean to keep no record of wrongs? or do you think they mean something else?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
LOL! I never thought a joey would be nearly as dumb as a deer. I imagine they are not so unwise as to stand in the middle of a highway staring into the headlights of an on coming truck. That’s what the deer throughout much of the northern states of America do. Rather than cull them, hunters shoot them and then make venison sausage out of them. Some say it is inhumane, but the alternative is to either cull them or let them starve during the winter.
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Oh yes they are! Kangaroo steaks and sausages are for sale in our local supermarkets these days. I was in a delicatessen, and i saw emu and wombat! I was horrified! They will sell anything these days!:eek:

I know a little bit of American history and about the Native Indians… quite sad…

My football team just lost! :mad: They are on top of the ladder and i am not a happy little birdie! Rugby League is a tough game, but they played like whimps tonight! 😃
 
Chuck:

Jane, Michael, Guano and others have refused to think this through with me. I believe understanding the truth of what forgiveness is, is a most important goal, and appreciate your help in this so far. You are not now going to leave me too, are you?

😦
 
Tweety said:
Oh yes they are! Kangaroo steaks and sausages are for sale in our local supermarkets these days. I was in a delicatessen, and i saw emu and wombat! I was horrified! They will sell anything these days!:eek:

I know a little bit of American history and about the Native Indians… quite sad…

My football team just lost! :mad: They are on top of the ladder and i am not a happy little birdie! Rugby League is a tough game, but they played like whimps tonight! 😃
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Do you shout at the TV and call the players idots like my wife when she watches professional basketball?

😃
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
They sound like a group of people with whom i’d enjoy discussing forgiveness late into an evening. 👍

Tell me please, Matey, when they tell people to forgive, do you think they mean to keep no record of wrongs? or do you think they mean something else?
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Yes, i think they mean to keep no record of wrongs. It is hard to do, but i think that is what they mean. Fr Dave is coming down this month, and he was the Parish Priest at this wonderful Parish until 2 yrs ago when they transferred him up to the Northern Territory. I am seeing him when he comes back for a week, and i will* try *to remember to ask him for you. He normally comes for dinner, and last time said a Mass for my daddy in my home.🙂

I hope this helps you. I am not very learned in all parts of the bible, but know in my heart that God is happy when we forgive. I want to be forgiven too, and therefore i must forgive… That is my (name removed by moderator)ut anyway for what it is worth. 🙂
 
Tweety said:
Yes, i think they mean to keep no record of wrongs. It is hard to do, but i think that is what they mean. Fr Dave is coming down this month, and he was the Parish Priest at this wonderful Parish until 2 yrs ago when they transferred him up to the Northern Territory. I am seeing him when he comes back for a week, and i will* try *to remember to ask him for you. He normally comes for dinner, and last time said a Mass for my daddy in my home.🙂

I hope this helps you. I am not very learned in all parts of the bible, but know in my heart that God is happy when we forgive. I want to be forgiven too, and therefore i must forgive… That is my (name removed by moderator)ut anyway for what it is worth. 🙂
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Wonderful! May i ask you a favor?
 
Tweety said:
Worse! 😃 😃 😃 And when my team get a try and then convert the goal i run around my lounge room in circles! 😃 😃 😃
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LOL! When my wife’s team fails to score at a critical moment, she shouts, “No!” and throws a pillow at the TV!

😃
 
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