Forgiveness FAQ

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Socrates4Jesus said:
So, if i had continued in my error, and stubbornly refused to be confused by the facts, you would have stuck to your original decision to stay clear of this discussion? (I’m not accusing you of anything wrong if that was indeed your decision, for i might do the same in your shoes.)
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Thanks for the icon notes. 👍

You and I have been members of this forum for about the same amount of time (you beat me to the punch in joining, however, by a few days).

In my time here I have noticed in discussions there comes a point where after we’ve done all we could to present the Truth we just need to step back and let the Spirit do the rest.

What I was saying to you is that there was no more I could offer to sway your opinion. I would just end up taking up thread space rewording what I had previously posted. So I stepped away from the discussion since it appeared you were set on sticking to your guns.

In the meantime I was planning to continue to watch this thread daily for any indication at all that you might be opening your heart and mind to the possibility that what we’d been saying was true. At that point I would have jumped back into the conversation to encourage you to keep an open heart and mind.

To my surprise you came around in the same evening! The Spirit is truly amazing!

This happened to me on the receiving end, as when I joined the forums I was of a different belief in church teachings regarding some of the 5 non-negotiables.

The arguments in defense of church teaching levied against my defense of my understanding of Christ’s teaching barely phased my reasoning. I found myself irritated and frustrated to be surrounded by so many ‘conservative, staunchy, prudes’ who were clearly brainwashed but too stubborn to see my perspective as a hand reaching out to save them. :cool:

I stopped visiting for a little while and that’s when the Spirit did His number on me. It was nothing remarkable; just a tug on my heart to get me to check in here again to see if there was any progress in those threads. For whatever reason, grace, I suppose, when I read the posts that time around, the words actually made sense to me. :eek:

I hadn’t been praying for the Lord to change my heart or mind, but obviously people here were praying for that on my behalf. It worked. It was a humbling experience, to say the least. :o

Anyway, I know without a doubt that it was only the grace of God through the Holy Spirit that my heart and mind would be changed - and at His time, not mine. So I’ve learned patience through all this.

I never would have given up on you, Socrates4Jesus. 🙂
 
YinYangMom said:
Thanks for the icon notes. 👍

You and I have been members of this forum for about the same amount of time (you beat me to the punch in joining, however, by a few days). …
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UR Welcome, YY. 🙂

Yes, i joined several years ago, participated in a few discussions, and then left. I suppose i might be something of a prodigal son? 😉
 
YinYangMom said:
… In my time here I have noticed in discussions there comes a point where after we’ve done all we could to present the Truth we just need to step back and let the Spirit do the rest.

What I was saying to you is that there was no more I could offer to sway your opinion. I would just end up taking up thread space rewording what I had previously posted. So I stepped away from the discussion since it appeared you were set on sticking to your guns.

In the meantime I was planning to continue to watch this thread daily for any indication at all that you might be opening your heart and mind to the possibility that what we’d been saying was true. At that point I would have jumped back into the conversation to encourage you to keep an open heart and mind. …
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I’d have to say that your course of action was an example of showing mercy unconditionally, YY! So, you were waiting for me to stop sticking to my guns, or to stop stubbornly believing in lies. You were waiting for the Holy Spirit to change my heart and mind so that you could encourage me once i had done so and tell me i had made the right decision. Is this correct?
 
Philthy said:
Soc -

Nowhere in any of this does one human ever say to another: I withhold MY forgiveness until you DEMONSTRATE to ME that you have repented. Paul never says it, Peter nevers says it either. You are the only one saying it. Yet Scripture clearly says “Do not judge”, vengence is mine, love your enemy, bless those who persecute you, etc etc.
How do you love your “enemy”, Soc? Do you wait until they are no longer your enemy (have repented?)?
And as a practical matter, why do you feel that withholding YOUR forgiveness while still urging someone to repent is contradictory?
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That’s a great question, Phil! Tell me, how do you love your enemy when he does not repent? How do you demonstrate your love for him? Maybe i can learn from your example.
 
JaneFrances said:
… Are these new ideas? Or will I recognize them as part of the past 600+ posts? I have been active and patient thus far. . .as many others have. . .I do not think it prudent to continue beating my head against a brick wall. I appreciate your recent openness to possibility, but I am not sure repeating already hashed arguements is the best route. In the meantime, I look forward to any new ideas you have to offer!
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Why, yes they are new. In fact, they are straight out of the headlines of this week! The news about President Bush giving clemency to Scooter Libby has shown me a great deal about the meaning of mercy and forgiveness and judgement.

Please consider this Washington Post article:

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/02/AR2007070200825.htmlBush Commutes Libby’s Prison SentenceBy Amy GoldsteinWashington Post Staff WriterTuesday, July 3, 2007; Page A01

President Bush commuted the sentence of I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby yesterday, sparing Vice President Cheney’s former chief of staff 2 1/2 years in prison after a federal appeals court had refused to let Libby remain free while he appeals his conviction for lying to federal investigators.Bush, who for months had sidestepped calls from conservatives to come to Libby’s aid, broke his silence early yesterday evening, touching off an immediate uproar from Democrats who accused the White House of circumventing the rule of law to protect one of its own.The president announced his decision in a written statement that laid out the factors he had weighed. Bush said he decided to “respect” the jury’s verdict that Libby was guilty of four felonies for lying about his role in the leak of a covert CIA officer’s identity. But the president said Libby’s “exceptional public service” and prior lack of a criminal record led him to conclude that the 30-month sentence handed down by a judge last month was "excessive."The president noted that he had promised before not to intervene until Libby had exhausted his appeals. But he stepped in short of that point. “With the denial of bail being upheld and incarceration imminent,” Bush said, "I believe it is now important to react to that decision."Although he eliminated Libby’s prison term, Bush did not grant him a full pardon, which was sought by some conservatives and would have erased his conviction. As a consequence, Libby will still have to pay a $250,000 fine and will remain on probation for two years. The president said Libby’s punishment remained “harsh,” in part because his professional reputation “is forever damaged.”
Now, i’ve been watching the discussions on MSNBC and CNN and find them fascinating and highly applicable to our discussion. God has impeccable timing!

The dilemma President Bush faced, i’m sure you already know, was deciding between judgement, clemency and pardon. That is, he could opt for:

  1. *]Judgement by allowing the judge’s ruling to stand so that his man Mr. Libby suffered jail time, as well as a stiff fine and being disbarred.
    *]**Clemency **by commuting the jail sentence but allowing Mr. Libby to still pay the fines.
    *]Pardon by completely absolving him from any consequence for the crime and declaring him innocent.
    My new question, dear Jane, is this: In this example, how does President Bush’s showing clemency differ from the other option of giving a pardon?
 
FYI:

**GRANT OF EXECUTIVE CLEMENCY
**
**BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA **
Washington D.C.
July 2, 2007
A PROCLAMATION
Code: 
    WHEREAS Lewis Libby was convicted in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia in the case United States v. Libby, Crim. No. 05-394 (RBW), for which a sentence of 30 months' imprisonment, 2 years' supervised release, a fine of $250,000, and a special assessment of $400 was imposed on June 22, 2007;

    NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, pursuant to my powers under Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, do hereby commute the prison terms imposed by the sentence upon the said Lewis Libby to expire immediately, leaving intact and in effect the two-year term of supervised release, with all its conditions, and all other components of the sentence.

    IN WITNESS THEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this second day of July, in the year of our Lord two thousand and seven, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-first.
GEORGE W. BUSH

Source: White House
 
The Incestuos Corinthian of 1st Corinthians–his sain is Reatianed by Paul and Paul only losses that retention and absolves that man in Corinthians 2:10 in the Person of Christ–In Persona Christi!

Inerrant Word of God proof positive of a bishop oir priests’ authority to forgive and retain sin that Jesus gave the apiostles After Calvary when He Breathed on them.

Not only that but also direct scriptural proof that the authority that Jesus gave to the remaining 11 disicples was Transferred to Paul just as Peter as head of the disciples had facilitated the election of Matthias to take Judas’ place.

The scriptures teach apostolic authority–the forgiving and retaining of sins–and the authority of Peter as head of the church.

The Catholic Church doesn’t make up these things–that’s the way the church opearated in the 1st century and no one had a problem with it–that’s why no Protestant churches existed back then that would Deny Jesus authotity to tranfer His authority to forgive and retain sins–no Protestant church existed that wouldn’t respect the disipcles authority to transfer that authority to others such as Paul–and no Protestant church existed that would not listen to Peter as head of the apostles.
 
Jerry-Jet said:
… The scriptures teach apostolic authority–the forgiving and retaining of sins–and the authority of Peter as head of the church. …
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Welcome to the discussion, JJ!

Actually, i’m not asking about how the church participates in the method God uses to forgive someone who sins against Him. Rather, i’m asking about what method i should use to personally pardon a person who sins against me.

I understand that i might forgive a person who God damns to hell, and i might fail to forgive someone who God delivers to heaven.

What advice do you have to give me for how i should personally forgive someone?

Soc
 
Jesus said you should be willing to forgive someone 70 X 7 times!

Priests when they forgive or retain sins are making a Juridicial Act before the tribunal of Mercy.

We who do not have the power to Absove someone juridicially in the Sacrament of Reconciliation because we are not priests and haven’t been given that authority through the disicples and their successors by Jesus.

We Forgive period! We don’t have to ascertain if the person is actually contritie or sorry for what they have done to us or if they have a firm purpose of amendment and really do intend to not sin anymore.

And if it is difficult for you to forgive someone just remembr that Jesus who is God was Crucified and yet He said “Forgive them Father for they know not what they do”.

If Jesus can do that and you feel like you can’t then ask Jesus to help you forgive the person for whatever they have done for you.

And just remember–how we Feel is irrelevant.

Feelings are not sins–they are emotions.

I’m sure Jesus didn’t have great feelings on the Cross for the people who were crucifying–yet He committed no sin because He didn’t let His emotions lead Him into sin.

So don’t expect to feel a great wonderful feeling for forgiving someone who treats you wrongly.

You may have a good feeling about it–but not always.

And just remember that the Final judgement for what anyone does lies with God.

And priests don’t make mistakes in granting someone absolution–they can only go on what they hear and what God tells them

If someone makes an Invalid confession the priest is not held accountable if he has acted in good faith.

The Insincere penitent who gives an Invalid confession Will be held accountable.
 
You talk as one who speaks from authority; someone who is certain he knows what it means to be forgiving. I’m glad you have joined the discussion!

Please tell me, JJ, exactly what is forgiveness? How would you define the word forgive?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Phil:

I apologize. I should reword the questions to reduce the chance of misunderstanding:

1b. Do you think it is more perfect to pardon a person for his sin and cancel that person’s debt conditionally or unconditionally?
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I think that the pardon is unconditional. But clearly, Jesus taught that the debt, once discharged, can be re-acquired.
Socrates4Jesus said:
2b. Do you think God the Son pardons a person for his sin and cancels that person’s debt in a different way than God the Father?
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The Father and the Son are One. What Jesus had to teach us about forgiveness that Phil noted above is not necessarily what He intends to do. He gave us instruction about what would lead us to life. He knows that we cannot read the heart, as He can do. I do not think that the Father and the Son forgive differently. If there is a difference, it is in how we forgive one another, since we are not divine.
 
I don’t know.

I do know if anyone asks me to forgive them that I tell them everything is OK don’t worry about it.

Now sometimes people that bother me such as terrorists or murderers or child molestors or people who try to tare down the Catholic Church–I usually have to ask God to help me forgive those people.

I have to acknolwedge my own shortcomings.

No one is worthy of being forgiven–they are forgiven only because of God’s love for us.

I can’t love God if I don’t also love all the other people He created regardless of what they do because He forgives me regardles of what I do.

The only thing that can’t be forgiven is resistance Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which constitutes final impenitence.

That can’t be forgiven.

The reson God doesn’t forgive final impenitence is that He loves us so much that "he lets us go to Hell if that is what we choose.

The scriptures say “God is Love”.

The scriptures also say “Love does not demand its own way”.

That is exactly what God does when He lets people resist the Holy Spirit until death and go to Hell.

Anyone who resists the Holy Spirit urging them to investigate the truth of the Catholic Church ans resists all the way to death Blasphemes the Holy Spirit and since God is love–God does not demand His own way–Hje lets them go to Hell because that is what they choose!

So what does that have to do with forgiveness? Simply this–forgiveness as an extension of love does not demand its own way!

The reason that a sin can be retained and a person not be forgiven is because God cannot be united to a soul that is in a state of mortal sin. That Choice precludes God from residing in that soul.

So the retention of sin is not God’s choice–it’s God loving the person enough to let them choose to not be with Him!

And the reason we as lay people should always forgive is that our forgiveness does not include us being in another person’s soul or not since we are not God.

We are to love one another–and to hope for the best for one another–that is the way we don’t demand our own way!

God does it by forgiving a truely penitent person in a state of mortal sin OR

by retaining their sin if that is what They choose!

That is the difference between us forginving someone and God forgiving someone!
 
Jerry-Jet said:
I don’t know.

I do know if anyone asks me to forgive them that I tell them everything is OK don’t worry about it. …
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JJ:

Have you ever seen the commercial where the guy is holding a knife and talking to his surgeon on the phone. The surgeon tells him where to make the incision and in a confused tone the guy asks, “Shouldn’t you be doing this?”

If i need a medical opinion, i should to ask a physician. If i need legal advice, i ought to ask a lawyer. Why? Because the physician knows what he is talking about when it comes to medicine and the lawyer knows what he is talking about when it comes to law. At least, they do if they are good at their professions.

Now, JJ, you speak as one who knows how to forgive. However, when i ask you what forgiveness is you say, “I don’t know.” If i asked a surgeon what he was going to do when he operates and he said, "I don’t know anything about medicine. do you think i would be wise to let him cut me open? If i asked a lawyer how he was going to defend me in a court of law and he said, “Beats me, i’m just going to wing it” would i not be a fool to hire him to defend me?

If i want to know how to forgive, i should take advice from someone who at least knows what forgiveness is, i think. Would it not be more honest for you to admit that you don’t know how to forgive because you don’t know what forgiveness is? We might then talk about it learn from one another and discover the truth together.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
I’d have to say that your course of action was an example of showing mercy unconditionally, YY! So, you were waiting for me to stop sticking to my guns, or to stop stubbornly believing in lies. You were waiting for the Holy Spirit to change my heart and mind so that you could encourage me once i had done so and tell me i had made the right decision. Is this correct?
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Pretty much, yes.
But it’s not that you just ‘stopped’.
You were not intentionally being stubborn.
This, I know, because I wasn’t back then.
It’s that the Spirit literally lifted the veil which was tainting your point of view so that you could see clearer.
Why He does it when He does it is odd, to say the least, but obviously when He believes our minds and hearts can handle the Truth then He does His thing.
I’ve come to trust His timing.

I guess I recognized my ‘old’ self in your posts 🙂
and remembered that it wasn’t anything anyone wrote which got me to see the light, it just made sense all of a sudden. So I knew you weren’t going to understand based on how many ways I wrote my position, it was going to take a revelation on your part from the Spirit. Yes, I would have waited however long it took because you raised a very good question, the answer of which was important to everyone here on the boards, not just you.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Rather, i’m asking about what method i should use to personally pardon a person who sins against me.
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Be careful, Soc.
Pardoning and forgiving are not the same.

“…absolving him from any consequence for the crime and declaring him innocent.”

Pardoning is declaring a person innocent (thus falsely accused, convicted, and undeserving of the sentence).

We forgive those who trespass against us.
If they didn’t trespass they would be innocent.
They won’t need our forgiveness and our gift of forgiveness is unwarranted.
If they didn’t trespass against us then there wouldn’t even be natural consequences for their action, let alone any we’d cook up.

Bush has the legal authority to declare Libby innocent even though a court of law convicted him. But that is Bush acting in the position of President of our government. Bush, the man, cannot absolve Libby of anything.

Bush, the man, can forgive Libby for anything he did to embarrass or harm Bush’s reputation, but that would not have an effect on Libby’s guilt or innocence in the matter.
 
YinYangMom said:
Be careful, Soc.
Pardoning and forgiving are not the same.

“…absolving him from any consequence for the crime and declaring him innocent.”

Pardoning is declaring a person innocent (thus falsely accused, convicted, and undeserving of the sentence).
…
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Will you do me a favor?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
That’s a great question, Phil! Tell me, how do you love your enemy when he does not repent? How do you demonstrate your love for him? Maybe i can learn from your example.
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As far as the question goes, it was an attempt to engage your logical side - something you and I both enjoy. From *your *perpective, forgiveness - which is an act of love, as we determined within the first 10 pages - could not be given to an enemy because an enemy still has not repented. Someone who has repented, however, can no longer be called your enemy. Therefore, Christ’s command to “love our enemies” makes no sense under your construct of conditional forgiveness. We have to either reject Christ’s words or your construct. That was my point.
As far as how do you love an enemy? That’s easy - you love an enemy the same way you love anyone else.
 
Philthy said:
… From *your *perpective, forgiveness - which is an act of love, as we determined within the first 10 pages - could not be given to an enemy because an enemy still has not repented. Someone who has repented, however, can no longer be called your enemy. Therefore, Christ’s command to “love our enemies” makes no sense under your construct of conditional forgiveness. …
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Yes, i see what you mean, Phil. I should love my enemies. The question is how should i love my enemies? Christ tells you and me:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you… .”
But notice that He never says, “Forgive your enemies who do not repent.” There are many ways to love besides forgiving. Perhaps you missed the many replies earlier in this discussion regarding the different types of love. You are correct in saying that early in this dialog the consensus was that forgiveness is a kind of love. The question that no one has answered is what kind of love is it?

To save you the trouble of searching through the discussion, let me give you a brief summary. St. Paul wrote of the different ways of loving, saying that

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
(1 Corinthians 13)
Now, what was discussed earlier is that i can love those who do not need to be forgiven by me because they have done nothing wrong to me. I can love those who do not need my forgiveness by being:
  • patient
  • kind
  • not envious
  • not boastful
  • humble
  • polite
  • selfless
  • calm
  • not delighting in evil
  • rejoicing with the truth
  • protecting
  • always trusting
  • always hoping
  • always persevering
  • never failing
The only way i cannot love a person who has committed no sin against me or those i love is to keep no record of wrongs. For the one who has done nothing wrong has not given me any wrongs i might hold against him. These ways of loving, then, may be shown to someone without forgiving him, so they cannot be said to be the kind of love that is forgiveness.

The only kind of love from St. Paul’s list that is left , is the love that “keeps no record of wrongs”. This must be an important part of the essence of what it means to forgive.

Tell me, Phil, what do you think it means to keep no record of wrongs? Would you agree that it means to personally pardon a person for the wrongs he has committed against you?
 
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