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Socrates4Jesus
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Q. 27. Do you think the answer to the last question will bring me closer to the truth about forgiveness?
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Q. 27. Do you think the answer to the last question will bring me closer to the truth about forgiveness?
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DrPiano
Guest
Soc, (sorry - typing out Socrates is more habit than anything else - its hard for my fingers to stop a word in the middle)Please Doc feel free to call me Soc, for that is what my online friends call me.
When you say, “you asked me to define forgiveness and I defined it as it pertains to the current context” i’m not sure i understand what you mean. Are you referring to the context of how a Catholic should forgive in every circumstance, or are you referring to the context of our Merciful Lord Jesus’ instructions regarding how we should forgive, or are you talking about both or something else?
by “in the current context” I mean in the generalized context of one human being’s forgiveness of the wrongs against them by another, particularly in what is required of Christians (perhaps in this case specifically Catholics, although I am not one - I think it can be generalized to other Christians too) by Jesus and what God’s Love for us and Forgiveness of our sins requires of us to fulfill the command to “forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another”. I guess that is a long-winded statement to say that it is what I believe Jesus requires of me - and what he meant in his statement to pray “forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us.”
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Socrates4Jesus
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Socrates it is, then! I’m sure the wise old guy, if he made it to heaven, might be pleased you do not butcher his name the way i do!
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DrPiano
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Soc,
I thought of an example recently to illustrate one of the points I’ve been trying to make, namely that God’s forgiveness does not always take away all of the consequences of our sins. Sometimes God makes us live through them - even those that are direct punishments for our sin. In 2 Samuel 12 we read about David. While he was a man after God’s own heart (as the scripture tells us) and who is held up as an example in the Chapter of Faith in the Book of Hebrews (Hebrews 11), he sinned really badly. Prior to the passage I am going to share, David took Bathsheba, another man’s wife, slept with her, and had her husband killed. Nathan, as God’s messenger, went to David and delivered God’s message to David - God was unhappy and was going to punish David. Note several things:
Anyway - that was my thought recently…
I thought of an example recently to illustrate one of the points I’ve been trying to make, namely that God’s forgiveness does not always take away all of the consequences of our sins. Sometimes God makes us live through them - even those that are direct punishments for our sin. In 2 Samuel 12 we read about David. While he was a man after God’s own heart (as the scripture tells us) and who is held up as an example in the Chapter of Faith in the Book of Hebrews (Hebrews 11), he sinned really badly. Prior to the passage I am going to share, David took Bathsheba, another man’s wife, slept with her, and had her husband killed. Nathan, as God’s messenger, went to David and delivered God’s message to David - God was unhappy and was going to punish David. Note several things:
- Nathan’s original message
- David’s response - it is one of repentance. Although we don’t see his full response here, Psalm 51 (a beautiful Psalm of repentance) is David’s full response to God. I’ll quote a bit. It starts:
- Nathan’s (and thus God’s) response to David’s forgiveness
Note here that Nathan says: “The LORD has taken away your sin.” David is forgiven. BUT in a way that does not negate God’s forgiveness, David must still endure some consequence of his sin (the death of his son). This comes out of both God’s love for David and God’s love for the world. God’s forgiveness of David does not seem to amount to the complete pardon - with no consequences - that you seem to propose.
Anyway - that was my thought recently…
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Socrates4Jesus
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Yes, this i can accept! For i do not see how anyone in her right mind, after having been forgiven by the Father through the sacrifice of Jesus, and after receiving the Holy Spirit, could justify holding resentment against someone else.
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
(2 Corinthians 5:14)
We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.
(1 John 4:19-20)
And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
(Romans 5:5)
“If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.”
—Jesus (John 14:15-17)
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Socrates4Jesus
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Philthy
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Here’s what I have come to think after following the latest round of endless discussion :I think your pursuit of an explicit definition of forgiveness as meant by Christ is unecessary. Christ did not have a dictionary, no one else did either, and no one seemed obsessed with p(name removed by moderator)ointing his intended meaning. All seemed to understand what was expected of them. It meant to let go of the anger and resentment and be at peace. If there was any question whether he truly meant to completely forgive, I think that it was cleared up perfectly when he said “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you”
As I have also stated, and you have ignored, many of your logical syllogisms which led down so many of the paths you are pursuing(forgiving as the Father forgives, keeping no record of wrongs, etc) were paths based on invalid conclusions. You did not bother to refute nor comment on these observations.
With respect to your question regarding “pardoning vs ceasing to feel resentment” I would say that the emphasis is always predominantly spiritual and our spiritual being is generally measured by our heart. Resentment resides in ones heart. Pardoning (in the cense of cancelling a debt) is a material action which flows from the heart. I see it much like the relationship between faith (heart) and works (flows from faith).
I would also like to comment on one last thing. You asked me to ask Jesus about something regarding forgiveness and to report back to you what He said - remember? I thought it was an odd request and I told you I didnt honestly feel that I could say I had received such a specific message from Christ, but that if you had you should relate it to us. You ignored my request. Why?
Have you ever received such a message from our Lord? Yes or no. If not, why would you expect me to? If yes, please share it - it will save a lot of unnecessary discussion.
I have only received one message from Christ and it is a very simple one. I have approached him with all my complicated issues and sins and concerns and weight. He responded very simply with, “I love you” - and that one message has answered more questions than I could have hoped and made all the difference in the world.
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JaneFrances
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“By Your grace.”
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Socrates4Jesus
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My apologies, Phil. I had no idea i missed one of your objections or questions. You see, i’m at a disadvantage, here. You, and the others, are speaking with only one person, who is me. I, on the other hand, have many people to whom i must respond. To top it off i have a full-time job, obligations to family, and more, which takes a great deal of my time. It’s not that i do not appreciate all of those who are trying to help me. I do! It’s just that i don’t have the time or the tenacity to give each person the attention s/he deserves.
If there is an objection or question to which you would like me to respond, please let me know what it is.
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Socrates4Jesus
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If you have the patience, i’d like to ask you some questions regarding your thoughts on this.
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Socrates4Jesus
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Phil:
What you ask is a personal question, and i’m not sure i know you well enough to answer it in a way that i would give the answer to a friend. I’ll answer it as i deem best: I believe God speaks to His kids in various ways. St. James tells me:
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord… .(James 1:5-7)It seems to me from his words that wisdom is a gift God gives to anyone generously. The only condition one must meet to receive it is to trust that God will give it and ask for it. So this is that for which i ask Him perhaps more than anything else–answers to my questions, or wisdom. I do not think this makes me wise, only someone who loves wisdom. For every question i have, i discover perhaps two more, so i’m always looking for answers. When i think i’ve found the truth, i put it to the test by asking people like yourself to discuss it with me. For St. John tells me:
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.(1 John 4:1)“But how do you know this is God speaking to you?” you might ask. The answer comes from Christ, who taught me:
“All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.”(John 14:25-27)The amazing thing is, Phil, that when i ask myself a question, or when someone asks me a question, something that Jesus said (or one of the other Biblical authors wrote) comes to my mind. Is that the power of my own intellect? I doubt it. Before i took following Jesus seriously i could not recall any quote from the Bible. I was not a bright boy; growing up the only books i read were The Hobbit and books i was forced to read by my public school teachers. I spent more time watching TV and reading comic books. If anyone ever asked me to quote anything i had read, i doubt i would have been able to do so. God’s word is different. It’s like i have total recall. It’s strange, but delightful, too. I do not feel that i deserve such a wonderful gift, nor that i am doing all i should to bless others with it. I also do not feel that it is a gift that God gives to only a chosen few. St. James words, as i said, tell me He will give it to anyone who wants it. It takes some commitment, though. I’ve read through the Bible from cover to cover a few times, and few days go by where i don’t open it up and read something.
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Socrates4Jesus
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Phil:
That’s the normal way God speaks to me; and i think it is the way He chooses to speak to most. When i read the writings of the early church fathers, for example, they quote one verse from the Bible after another, without giving chapter and verse. (C.S. Lewis did the same in his book Mere Christianity.) Their minds were just filled with Scripture; and why not? St. Paul wrote:
The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment: “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.(1 Corinthians 2:15-16 )As for actual a message straight from the “mouth” of God like those St. Paul heard from the sky on the road to persecute the Christians–no i have not heard such a word. However, i have twice in my 40 years heard words in my mind that i did not believe came from me:
In college i was running away from God and living for myself and giving in to every temptation (something like David’s boy Solomon). I was in the middle of committing a sin i practiced regularly and for which i had no remorse, when i heard clearly and gently in my mind, “This is wrong.”
These three words literally scared the hell out of me, i think. For i never committed that sin again, and for the first time i had a sense that what i did mattered to God. Was it the Holy Spirit? Not sure. The result was something i God wanted. For the first time i knew that i could not call myself a Christian and live like the devil. I stopped doing drugs; i stayed faithful to my girlfriend who is now my beautiful wife (married 19 years, now, and still loving her).
Still, i was doing a lot of drugs during that time (just pot), so i suppose there might have been some kind of narcotic-induced hallucination. However, i read somewhere that psychologist believe that hallucinations are rarely of things we do not want or expect to happen. I certainly did not expect that.
One other time years later i committed a sin for which i was weeping and i prayed, “Father, forgive me!” and i heard in my mind, “I already have.” Was it God? I cannot be sure, for i certainly wanted His forgiveness and so it might have been a hallucination.
It has been years since then and no such direct communication. However, daily i am reminded of things i have read in the Bible, which i believe is the Holy Spirit speaking to me in His normal way of conveying His thoughts to each of us.
That’s the normal way God speaks to me; and i think it is the way He chooses to speak to most. When i read the writings of the early church fathers, for example, they quote one verse from the Bible after another, without giving chapter and verse. (C.S. Lewis did the same in his book Mere Christianity.) Their minds were just filled with Scripture; and why not? St. Paul wrote:
The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment: “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.(1 Corinthians 2:15-16 )As for actual a message straight from the “mouth” of God like those St. Paul heard from the sky on the road to persecute the Christians–no i have not heard such a word. However, i have twice in my 40 years heard words in my mind that i did not believe came from me:
In college i was running away from God and living for myself and giving in to every temptation (something like David’s boy Solomon). I was in the middle of committing a sin i practiced regularly and for which i had no remorse, when i heard clearly and gently in my mind, “This is wrong.”
These three words literally scared the hell out of me, i think. For i never committed that sin again, and for the first time i had a sense that what i did mattered to God. Was it the Holy Spirit? Not sure. The result was something i God wanted. For the first time i knew that i could not call myself a Christian and live like the devil. I stopped doing drugs; i stayed faithful to my girlfriend who is now my beautiful wife (married 19 years, now, and still loving her).
Still, i was doing a lot of drugs during that time (just pot), so i suppose there might have been some kind of narcotic-induced hallucination. However, i read somewhere that psychologist believe that hallucinations are rarely of things we do not want or expect to happen. I certainly did not expect that.
One other time years later i committed a sin for which i was weeping and i prayed, “Father, forgive me!” and i heard in my mind, “I already have.” Was it God? I cannot be sure, for i certainly wanted His forgiveness and so it might have been a hallucination.
It has been years since then and no such direct communication. However, daily i am reminded of things i have read in the Bible, which i believe is the Holy Spirit speaking to me in His normal way of conveying His thoughts to each of us.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
If He then asked, “And by My grace did you love Me by loving others as I have loved you?” what would your answer be?
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JaneFrances
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“Yes, Lord, You know I love You first and obey Your commandments, including loving others as myself, for the man who loves God is known by Him.”
Which, of course, conveniently brings us back to the topic of forgiveness. . .
Socrates4Jesus, my weariness is not a function of impatience at this point. Hopefully, I have proven my patience these several hundred posts into the thread. However, I ask you, respectfully, to move directly towards the point of these recent questions. How do you think this pertains to your original notion that you should withhold forgiveness until you perceive a sinner is either repentant or ignorant? I’m still waiting for your new arguements. . .
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JaneFrances
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“I already have.” . . .could this be your model for forgiveness?
To forgive, with the hope of contrition. To forgive, with the faith that God can move through your act of charity. To let go, so that you can receive back emptied and uncalloused. It’s worth a shot and if it’s good enough for God, it’s gotta be good enough for you.
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Socrates4Jesus
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Jane, just a few more questions, please. I will then explain what this has to do with our discussion.
If Jesus then smiled, put his hand gently on your shoulder, looked into your eyes the way a father who cares for his child does and asked, “Have you forgiven others as I have forgiven you?” what would your answer be?
If Jesus then smiled, put his hand gently on your shoulder, looked into your eyes the way a father who cares for his child does and asked, “Have you forgiven others as I have forgiven you?” what would your answer be?
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JaneFrances
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Socrates4Jesus, because I love you and because I love my family, I will not continue down this road of questions with you. I am happy to discuss the topic of forgiveness, as I have exhibited through these many hundreds of posts. However, I am not convinced that your Socratic aspirations have proven profitable, so, it is because of love that I continue to frequent this thread with this request. I ask you, out of charity, to cease this line of leading questions and return to a frank discussion of why you believe you are required to withhold forgiveness from an unrepentant sinner.
Per your question and pertinent to this thread: It is impossible to forgive others in exactly the same way God has forgiven us. We forgive as fellow sinners. God forgives as God, with all knowledge, power, and perfection. However, we can imitate God, such as in the case of the moneylender whereby we forgive others because of love and the cause of it.
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Socrates4Jesus
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No problem, Jane.
Let me take a more direct approach: Do you agree with Doc that to personally pardon and cancel a debt someone owes you are also acts of forgiveness?
Let me take a more direct approach: Do you agree with Doc that to personally pardon and cancel a debt someone owes you are also acts of forgiveness?
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Socrates4Jesus
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Q. 28. Is it an act of forgiveness to personally pardon a person for wrongs she has committed against you?
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Socrates4Jesus
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Q. 29. Is it an act of forgiveness to cancel a debt that someone owes you, monetary or otherwise?
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