Forgiveness FAQ

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It has been a long, hard climb to the top of this mountain. I must admit i had anticipated the satisfaction of arriving at the top and surveying the delightful panorama from horizon to horizon.

. . .do you really think you’re at the top now?
“See?” i imagined myself saying. “How beautiful is forgiveness as she sets, filling the expanse of the heavens with waves of brilliant hues. A holy trinity is she–not resentful, pardoning completely and cancelling all debts. As the Spirit cannot touch one of you without your being touched by both the Father and Son, so too no one part of forgiveness can touch one forgiven without the other parts embracing her as well. Now you know that this lady is as i described her, and even more breathtaking than my feeble words could say.”
 
😉 This has been beyond a doubt the most helpful thing I have ever read in my life. All of the different aspects, the struggles, the humor, the way you have gotten to the heart of the problem. I appreciate all of the HARD WORK and EFFORT each of you has put into this. I know that I am not the only one to benefit from this Forgiveness Forum. A Big group hug for all of you. :grouphug: I hope that God enriches each of your lives in the same manner that you have touched other lives. Peace Be with YOU.:yup:
 
Hey Soc,

No unfortunately not. The flu down here is lingering and everyone has a bark in their cough. Braden (our son) also has been sick for a few weeks, it is a rotten winter. Spent yesterday with mum, she came here as we have the enclosed fire, nice and toasty warm. The sun is shining and it looks glorious outside, but it is still cold. Too cold and winter is not over yet. The rains have been a GODSEND to Australia, but we are still in a drought.

Very sad about Fr Dave’s father, but with Fr Dave by his side, what a blessing, to be there when his father took his last breath. I have to remember that Fr Dave is also a son, not just a priest and he has a broken heart at the moment… I can’t fathom watching my mum go, but…

Have not read through what i have missed, but i just had to read your ‘piece’ and you put a **big **smile on my face… God Bless!

Thank you Soc!

Tweets
Matey:

I’m so sorry to hear about your mum. I’m praying. Please keep me up to date. Send me a private message or e-mail to let me know her progress.

Your mate,
Soc
 
Hey Team, I just found this blog series through a friend. What’d ya’ll think?

auntjudie.blogspot.com/2007/04/unforgiven.html

Here’s a snip:
In 1933 a baby girl who would become my mother was born. I’ll never know what made her the person she was when I knew her. But I’m pretty sure she did not purposely become an alcoholic. I know she did not have a childhood dream to someday abandon her husband and four young children. And she certainly did not intend to die at age 43.
She died thirty years ago, and it took over twenty years for me to forgive her. In all that time my unforgiveness did not hurt her one bit. It only hurt me and, in turn, caused me to hurt the people in my life.
Forgiveness is the only thing that can end the cycle of hurt.
 
Many informative statements in this dialogue ! This takes me back many years but a priest psychologist talked to a group @ our parish and talked about confession. … He then went on to tell us that whenever he met a certain personality type, he seemed to resent that person and through discernment and prayer, he realized that when he was younger and had been made fun of, he resented that person and never forgave him. Once he made an act of the will to forgive this person, he was freed from this lasting resentment towards others. …
“I resent that!”

It’s a phrase i’ve heard said to me and never really felt offended by it. Nothing wrong with being honest about one’s feelings, i thought.

“I resent that!”

It’s a phrase i’ve said to others, and saw nothing wrong with it. There was a certain satisfaction in being blunt when a person’s actions called for it, i thought.

“I resent that!”

It’s a phrase for which i’ve never confessed, until this moment. Now i see that the words, “I resent that” can never be uttered from the mouth of a Christian. For if i am to forgive absolutely everyone unconditionally by ceasing to feel resentment, then i can never allow those words to leave my mouth again. What’s more, i cannot even think those words, without confessing them as evil. For any words that are always sin under any circumstances without exception can only be evil always.

Yes, Ellen, i see what you mean.
 
The Scene: A camp at the top of the mountain where previously Socrates and his companions watched the Forgivenesses set. Socrates’ companions are fast asleep in blankets by a campfire that has just gone out. Socrates is sleeping under his own blanket by the smoldering embers next to the rest.

Socrates: (Awakes startled): What? Who’s there?

Goodwill: (A beautiful, blond woman dressed in glowing white robes who speaks softly and a friendly laugh behind Socrates): Did I startle you, my love?

Soc: (Turning around and looking relieved): Oh, it’s just you. I must be dreaming again.

Good: How can you dream with your eyes open silly?

Soc: Ahhh, yes, i’m having another vision. Forgive me.

Good: I always do!

Soc: Yes, i know that now. You must be Goodwill, the Forgiveness who never resents. Odd how you look so much like your sisters, the other Forgivenesses. Except for your hair. I always fancied you just changed the hue of your locks to suit my whim, but now i see . . .

Good: That we are not one but three?

Soc: Yes. Sorry.

Good: No need to be sorry. I . . .

Soc: I know: You forgive me whether i repent or not. Yes it all makes sense now. So, please tell me, why do you visit me this night? And where are your sisters? I should very much like to see the three of you together for the first time!

Good: Do you think you are ready for the three of us?

Soc: What do you mean?

Good: (With a smile.) You will see! Now, lover, come with me.

Soc: Where are we going? (Socrates follows Goodwill as she enters the woods at the edge of the campsite. The foliage becomes thicker and he loses sight of her. There is panic in his voice as he calls out.) Goodwill! Where are you? I’ve lost you! Goodwill!
 
Jane:

I cannot help but wondering about what the good doctor said, however. For she pointed out that the word as can also mean because. So the words

… Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
(Colossians 3:13)

might mean

… Forgive [because] the Lord forgave you.

This also raises the possibility that Christ’s words “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”
(John 13:34)

might mean

“[Because] I have loved you, so you must love one another.”
So both passages are ambiguous, as they can be taken to mean two different things: Either i am to forgive and love the way that Jesus does, or i am to forgive and love because Jesus does.

That leaves me wondering, then, what St. Paul meant by the words

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
(Ephesians 5:1-2)

If i am not to imitate Jesus in the way He loves (including in the way He forgives) then how am i to imitate Him? I’m in a state of confusion, but i have been in such a state in the past with God results. I trust that “God works all things for the good of those who love Him”.
What if BOTH things are true?
 
The Scene: A camp at the top of the mountain where previously Socrates and his companions watched the Forgivenesses set. Socrates’ companions are fast asleep in blankets by a campfire that has just gone out. Socrates is sleeping under his own blanket by the smoldering embers next to the rest. …

Soc: Yes, i know that now. You must be Goodwill, the Forgiveness who never resents. Odd how you look so much like your sisters, the other Forgivenesses. Except for your hair. I always fancied you just changed the hue of your locks to suit my whim, but now i see . . .

Good: That we are not one but three?
🙂 Hello, I know that I took a lot out, but I just wanted to let you know that this is a beautiful piece of writing.👍 You also made it very clear about the forgiveness that does not resent. I love this in this story form, it is so easy to understand. I, of course, had already learned this from you and your companions, and am praying :gopray2: more than daily.

I guess what I am trying to say is thank you and keep up the great work, it really is not enough sometimes to find the answer, but to see it in different formats. The formats appeal to different types of people and you reach a larger audience. I hope someday to have the knowledge and wisdom and to be able to use it as all of you have. Thank you again. Peace be with You All.
 
What if BOTH things are true?
If both are true, then i should forgive the same way that the Son forgives, and the Son forgives the same way the Father forgives, so i should forgive the same way the Father forgives.

That is why Jane and Doc wanted me to think that Jesus’ words meant to forgive because He forgave me and not forgive the same way He forgave me, i think. What do you think, Guano? Do you think both are true?
 
🙂 Hello, I know that I took a lot out, but I just wanted to let you know that this is a beautiful piece of writing.👍 You also made it very clear about the forgiveness that does not resent. I love this in this story form, it is so easy to understand. I, of course, had already learned this from you and your companions, and am praying :gopray2: more than daily.

I guess what I am trying to say is thank you and keep up the great work, it really is not enough sometimes to find the answer, but to see it in different formats. The formats appeal to different types of people and you reach a larger audience. I hope someday to have the knowledge and wisdom and to be able to use it as all of you have. Thank you again. Peace be with You All.
UR welcome, Scarlet. Thank you for the encouragement! It’s a kind of style the real Socrates, and his contemporaries, sometimes used. I thought it would be fun to try to imitate him.
 
Scene 2: Socrates approaching the edge of a clearing. In the clearing sits Goodwill at the side of Enemy, an evil looking man with a lustful expression on his face. Goodwill is embracing him. The clearing is well lit by moonlight, but Socrates does not yet see them.

*Soc: *Goodwill! Where are you? Why have you forsaken me?

*Pardon: *(A woman who appears identical to Goodwill, but who has long, curls of red hair, speaks from behind Socrates.) Are you lost you old fool?

Soc: (With a start, turns to speak to Pardon.) Don’t keep startling me like that, Goodwill! You know how easily . . . Oh, your hair. I can just make it out in the moonlight. Which one are you?

*Par: *(Annoyed.) Is that any way to greet the one of whom you used to be so fond? And what’s wrong with my hair?

Soc: What is wrong? Everything! I mean nothing! Nothing is wrong with your hair. You know i’ve always been partial to it’s fiery red.

*Par: *Funny, but from your hypnotic expression it seemed blond was your new love and your eyes desired no other. They’ve turned you against me, haven’t they?

*Soc: *What? My companions? No! I mean, they have no resentment for you.

Par: How can they? They love HER!

Soc: You mean Goodwill. Yes, they are extremely fond of her. It’s a strong devotion they have. They are loyal.

Par: They are fools!

Soc: Why do you say that?

Good: (Laughing in the clearing.)

Soc: (Turning his head to look away from Pardon and in the direction of the laughter.) Is that her? I think she is over there.

Par: It appears you have spent far too much time with them; now she even turns your head, too!

Absolution: And see, sister, how he follows the sound of her voice like a lamb to the slaughter? His poor heart will suffer the butcher’s knife when he sees the company she keeps!

Soc: (Turns back to see Absolution standing beside Pardon. She is identical to her sisters, yet she has ebony hair that is straight and not long enough to touch her shoulders.) Sister! We meet again; but it seems like the first time. It feels like the very first time! Allow me to introduce myself–i am, i’m sure you know, Socrates. And you are–no, let me guess: You with hair as beautiful as the setting sun are Acquittal, your sister with the ebony hair that is dark and desirous like the night is Absolution, and your sister who i hear just beyond those trees with the hair bright and playful as the noonday sun is Acceptance. Although i’m sure you each go by many other names, each meaning the same.

Par: (Clapping gently as she says with a sarcastic tone.) Bravo.

Absol: (Staring at Socrates with disapproval.) Don’t reward him just yet, sister. We are not sure he deserves our love. Not yet.

Par: Isn’t that why he follows HER? She is easy, and men, like dogs, do not have the patience to wait for a satisfying meal. They’d rather settle for scraps that fall from other men’s laps!

Absol: (With a smile and a wink at Pardon.) Sister! You are cruel; accurate, but cruel.

Soc: Forgivenesses, i dont’ understand. Are you not the embodied virtues of acts of forgiveness themselves? How can you resent your sibling and me for loving her?

Good: (Laughing in the clearing.)

Par: Yes, that’s the one you love with such loyalty, Socrates. Go to her.

Absol: But remember: A spear will pierce your heart, too!

Soc: (Turns toward the sound of the laughter and walks into the clearing.)
 
**Capulet’s Garden.

[Enter Romeo.]

Romeo.
He jests at scars that never felt a wound.–
[Juliet appears above at a window.]
But soft! what light through yonder window breaks?
It is the east, and Juliet is the sun!–
Arise, fair sun, and kill the envious moon,
Who is already sick and pale with grief,
That thou her maid art far more fair than she:
Be not her maid, since she is envious;
Her vestal livery is but sick and green,
And none but fools do wear it; cast it off.–
It is my lady; O, it is my love!
O, that she knew she were!–
She speaks, yet she says nothing: what of that?
Her eye discourses, I will answer it.–
I am too bold, 'tis not to me she speaks:
Two of the fairest stars in all the heaven,
Having some business, do entreat her eyes
To twinkle in their spheres till they return.
What if her eyes were there, they in her head?
The brightness of her cheek would shame those stars,
As daylight doth a lamp; her eyes in heaven
Would through the airy region stream so bright
That birds would sing and think it were not night.–
See how she leans her cheek upon her hand!
O that I were a glove upon that hand,
That I might touch that cheek!

Juliet.
Ah me!

Romeo.
She speaks:–
O, speak again, bright angel! for thou art
As glorious to this night, being o’er my head,
As is a winged messenger of heaven
Unto the white-upturned wondering eyes
Of mortals that fall back to gaze on him
When he bestrides the lazy-pacing clouds
And sails upon the bosom of the air.

Juliet.
O Romeo, Romeo! wherefore art thou Romeo
Deny thy father and refuse thy name;
Or, if thou wilt not, be but sworn my love,
And I’ll no longer be a Capulet.

Romeo.
[Aside.] Shall I hear more, or shall I speak at this?

Juliet.
'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;–
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What’s Montague? It is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What’s in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call’d,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title:–Romeo, doff thy name;
And for that name, which is no part of thee,
Take all myself.

Romeo.
I take thee at thy word:
Call me but love, and I’ll be new baptiz’d;
Henceforth I never will be Romeo.

Juliet.
What man art thou that, thus bescreen’d in night,
So stumblest on my counsel?

Romeo.
By a name
I know not how to tell thee who I am:
My name, dear saint, is hateful to myself,
Because it is an enemy to thee.
Had I it written, I would tear the word.

Juliet.
My ears have yet not drunk a hundred words
Of that tongue’s utterance, yet I know the sound;
Art thou not Romeo, and a Montague?

Romeo.
Neither, fair saint, if either thee dislike.**

Romeo and Juliet. A timeless play that illustrates the tragic consequences of resentment and lack of forgiveness. What a profound tragedy. Oh the sorrow. Oh the pain. Oh if I could only write like Socrates4Jesus so that I wouldn’t post such a pathetic attempt to fit in this conversation. I knew I should have paid more attention in that English lit class. :mad:

God Bless,
Michael
 
I think the poetic writings are taking an odd turn. Why would pardon and absolution care if you also loved Goodness? You need not abandon the rest for the one…

Giving up your anger, resentment, bitterness, etc. is an act of forgiveness - one that can (and probably should) be done unconditionally. Restoring a relationship is not required in forgiveness (neither is pardoning the act or entirely forgetting that the act has ever occurred) but can it (and they) can be involved in forgiveness. It doesn’t mean we can’t hope for it to happen and therefore (in the analogy of the poetic language) love them too.

In fact, one should hope for the restoration of the relationship (and be open to it when the other person is also wanting to repent and restore the relationship), I think.

Besides - we ought to keep these posts rated G. All that talk about Goodness as a lover was a little wierd… lol
 
Have you read the Song of Solomon? 😃

God Bless,
Michael
Lol - yes. And while I don’t personally mind something that is rated something other than G, I have noticed that there are younger people wandering around on this forum. I’d rather some parents NOT get angry at us for getting a little questionable in our posts - especially when it isn’t necessary. 😉 A wonder piece of writing, yes. But not necessary for the discussion 😉

I’m actually looking forward to studying the Song of Solomon with my future husband one day 🙂
 
I think the poetic writings are taking an odd turn. Why would pardon and absolution care if you also loved Goodness? You need not abandon the rest for the one…
…lol
You shall see, my good doctor, what they have to say about why they resent their sibling.
 
Lol - yes. And while I don’t personally mind something that is rated something other than G, I have noticed that there are younger people wandering around on this forum. I’d rather some parents NOT get angry at us for getting a little questionable in our posts - especially when it isn’t necessary. 😉 A wonder piece of writing, yes. But not necessary for the discussion 😉

I’m actually looking forward to studying the Song of Solomon with my future husband one day 🙂
I’ll try not to push the envelope too far, Doc. The ending of the story i think you might like.
 
Scene 3: Socrates enters the clearing then stops dead in his tracks, staring in disbelief as Enemy embraces Goodwill. Pardon stands at his left and puts her hand on his right shoulder. Absolution stands at his right and puts her hand on his right shoulder.

*Pardon: *(To her sister Absolution.) Didn’t we warn him not to proceed?

*Absolution: *(To her sister Pardon.) Indeed! But we should feel no pity for him, for he refused to listen to us.

*Socrates: *This can’t be! How can she be with HIM?

Goodwill: (Waving to Socrates and calling out to him joyfully.) Socrates, come sit with me! I have someone i’d like you to meet.

Soc: (Clenching his fist and with a look of anger he begins to approach Enemy.) If she only knew what monster was touching her!

Par: (Grabbing his right arm and stopping him.) You naive fool!

Absol: (Grabbing the other arm.) She does know. She knows everything he did to you; to those you love, too.

Soc: But why HIM!

Absol: Yes, him. (Drawing closer and whispering in his right ear.) Did I not warn you your heart would be broken? He does not deserve her, for he is the opposite of all she is.

Par: (Whispering in his other ear.) Yet she is no less guilty than he, for there she sits embracing him. Our sister has no shame!

Abol: (Still whispering.) She does not blame. She cares not who has her, for her love is freely given to all–good or evil. It makes no difference to her.

Par: (Whispering still): YOU make no difference to her. How does that make you feel, Socrates? Do you feel jealous?

Absol: (Continuing to whisper.) Do you envy your enemy?

Soc: (Sweating with a nervous tone.) Forgivenesses, you mustn’t talk like this! I’ve thought this through and i know, now, that Resentment has two brothers–Jealousy and Envy. They are triplets like you three. If i hold envy in my heart, if i nurture jealousy, they will rise up in me like a beast and devour me. I will become like their brother Resentment. And you know what becomes of those who throw in their lot with him!

Good: (Laughing with Enemy as she calls out.) Socrates, we’re waiting!

Absol: Yes, we know what becomes of those who turn their backs on our dear sister and turn to Resentment. But the same fate does not befall those who reject our love, you disloyal one. Do you know why that is?

Soc: I suppose it has something to do with mercy?

Par: Yes, let us tell you about him, you guilty old fool. Let us tell you of our dear father.

Absol: And the tragic story of our grieving mother, whose name is Justice. Do you know her?

Soc: Yes, i remember her as a child. She was the tall, dignified lady who held a scale and wore a blindfold. When i asked why the lady on the flag covered her eyes, my mother told me, “Because justice is blind.”

Par: She was wrong! She covered her eyes to hide her tears of shame.

Absol: For there was only one who her husband Mercy loved, and he spoiled her rotten! Our precious daddy’s pet. He loves her so, that all those who reject her love do not receive his love, either. No Mercy, no life.

Good and Enemy: (Laughing together.)

Par: Goodwill you dare call her, guilty one. Tell us, how can you call THAT good? That thing which grieves her mother so and feels no guilt?

Abol: Look what injustice she does, loving the undeserving wicked as much as the deserving good. Look at what unjust little evil ones she spawns, causing others to love the sinful as shamelessly as she. She breads more sin in the hearts of the unrepentant than any temptation might hope sire.

Par: Good she is not. For under that joyful laugh is the heart of a tyrant. Fear of her reigns in the hearts of men for any who dare cross her have to answer to daddy. Daddy does what she wants, for she rules over him, too.

Absol: No Mercy, no life. And all the time mother Justice grieves over the love daddy Mercy never gives her. Though he says he loves her with his lips, his actions prove otherwise. For Mercy has no love for Justice.

Par: And Justice weeps.

Absol: As do we.

Par: Now do you understand why we resent the one who does not, dear guilty one?

Soc: Yes, i think i do.
 
Good: (Whimsically with a giggle.) Socrates, please. Enemy and i have something to say to you.

Absol: Socrates, is that a tear running down your cheek?

Par: I believe you are correct, sister.

Absol: Tell us, beloved, do you weep for your loss? And who do you choose to lose?

Soc: I do not weep for my loss, lovely Absolution.

Par: Then if your tears are for your sin, come to us, forgiven one. Sister and i will comfort you.

Absol: Yes, let us leave this place together, for you have earned our affections.

Soc: My tears are not for my sin, either, for who in his right mind would repent of the truth? No, i weep are for both of you.

Absol: He insults us sister!

Par: How offensive! Fine, hate us then! But don’t come crawling back to us with your tail between your legs after her beloved kicks you like the mangy cur you have revealed yourself to be!

Par and Absol: (Turn to walk back into the dark woods.)

Soc: Forgivenesses, please! Hear me out.

Absol: (Turning back with an angry look.) Our patience is wearing thin, obstinate one.

Par: (Turning and also angry.) Speak now, and forever hold your peace. Soon we will leave you to lie in the bed you have made.

Soc: My tears are for you, but not for your sin. For how can virtues have any sin? I grieve for your pain, and for the grief of your mother, and for the suffering of your dear sister and worthy father, too. Yes, please bear with me just a little longer. This war between all in your family is not good; you cannot deny that, and neither can i. Yet my God tells me that He works all things for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to his purpose. You are His purpose, i know this is true. For who can be reconciled to Him without you two? And i know you both love Him as i do, for He created you, and all the other virtues, too. Yes, even your sister and father are His beloveds.

Absol: Where is all this going?

Par: I’ve heard enough. Come, sister! (Turns to leave.)

Soc: No, wait! Please, Forgivenesses. Hear what i plan to do before you abandon me. You might like what you see.

Par and Absol: (Turning back and saying In unison.) Out with it then.

Soc: As you were telling your story, the Father of your father, who is also my adopted Father, spoke to me. His beloved Spirit reminded me of the words His precious Son spoke to lovers of virtue long ago: “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.”

Par and Absol: (Equally annoyed and in unison.) And?

Soc: And, i suddenly realized something i had never seen with the Spirits’ eye before: God’s purpose for me might be not just to make peace between my Enemy and me. His purpose might be to make peace between you three.

Par and Absol: (In unison.) What?

Soc: Not only between you and your hated sister, but also between your mother and father. Have i peaked your curiosity?

Absol: If this is a game . . .

Par: So help us we . . .

Soc: This is no prank, sweet sisters, like our Father says, “For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.”

Absol: You have our attention.

Par: Tell us more.
 
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