Forgiveness

[JRKH]

As I understand things, we aren’t supposed to shun anyone but Christians who remain in majorly grievious sin despite our having fraternally corrected them (as in the case of the man who was in a relationship with his step mother mentioned in an an epistle) and this shunning would be for the sole sake of moving him to repentance. But with the heathens I believe we are supposed to love them and pray for them, even if we are only dealing with them on a businness level. But even when dealing with them we should treat them with dignity, kindness, mercy and patience as God treats us all with dignity, is merciful towards all, is kind and patient and lets his sun shine on the just and the unjust. He wants us to be just like Him and he shows his goodness to all, the just and unjust.

The Jews would shun heathens because that was what they were instructed to do in their religion, but with Chritianity we are called to love everyone including our enemies. If we are called to love even heathens, how can we feel right shunning them? What does shunning mean anyway? Maybe that’s why I don’t understand your posts…maybe I don’t know what shunning means.

No, I don’t hang out with pagans, but I pray for them and would try and treat them the same way I would Christians because God wants them and wants me to try and be a good example to them to help lead them to him. I couldn’t have good friends who were pagans because I am very orthodox and we wouldn’t have anything in common and they don’t follow Christ…but I don’t ignore them when I see them in my building.

I think what is meant by treating the Christian like a publican is something I need to understand further. I still don’t understand. Maybe it means to just love them and pray for them from a distance.

I think you understand very well.

I think that to understand better the idea of “treating the Christian like a publican” one must ask ones self if a person is a Christian they follow Christ - and follow His Church. If this person persists in “obstinate opposition” to the teachings of Christ through His Church, as outlined in Mt 18:15-18, where he “…refuses to listen even to The Church…” Should he be considered a “Christian”?

If a person wishes to be considered Catholic, then they should uphold Catholic teaching. To deny the teachings of the Catholic Church is to deny being Catholic. Simple as that.
Now of course where we are dealing with our seperated bretheren, that is non catholic christians, the issues are more complicated in how we approach and dialogue with them.

I think this is where we get into trouble today. We have so called “Catholics”, even very public ones, who are in “obstinate opposition” and are not being called to task by The Church for their opposition. Such “Charity” only confuses the issues.

Sorry getting off topic.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I am shunning a man in my building because he was wearing a Playboy tee-shirt. I am a female and don’t think it safe to smile or mix with him probably out of prudence. Plus he gives me the creeps now. I’ll love him by praying for his soul from a distance though.

I, too, do shun pagans but I see I should still pray for their conversion, loving them from a distance. Maybe that’s the only way to love them besides giving them good example and admonishing them by a sign of open disapproval of their behavior like a disappointed look.

Each person must look carefully at what God is calling them to and what gifts they have to offer for the conversion of others.
There are those who are wonderful apologists, others are great prayer warriors, still others who simply exude Christian Love in everything they say and do. There are those who are very vivacious and outgoing and others who are very quiet. Ones who are very logical and rational and others who are more mystical and spiritual. Each has a gift that God can use.
In your case you seem to feel uncomfortable interacting with certain persons. Yet you see the need for their conversion and so pray for it. This is wonderful. God will hear your prayer and eventually act upon it, either through you or through someone else.
Keep up th egood work.

Peace
James

 

[ready]

Each person must look carefully at what God is calling them to and what gifts they have to offer for the conversion of others.
There are those who are wonderful apologists, others are great prayer warriors, still others who simply exude Christian Love in everything they say and do. There are those who are very vivacious and outgoing and others who are very quiet. Ones who are very logical and rational and others who are more mystical and spiritual. Each has a gift that God can use.

Peace
James

Excellent point!

I just want to clarify that I think I don’t generally shun pagans…the Playboy teeshirt the man in my building was wearing indicated to me, however, that I needed to have some new boundaries with the man. I don’t feel I can trust him as a neighbor now that he shows me he promotes porn; he pretty much ruined all hope of me liking him as a person. I love him spiritually but I don’t like him now. But my decision to love despite my feelings of dislike mark me as a Christian and makes me feel like I am on track with my faith. Could this be what is meant by treating another as a heathen: still loving them but with certain boundaries or with a certain distance between us?

 

[JRKH]

Excellent point!

I just want to clarify that I think I don’t generally shun pagans…the Playboy teeshirt the man in my building was wearing indicated to me, however, that I needed to have some new boundaries with the man. I don’t feel I can trust him as a neighbor now that he shows me he promotes porn; he pretty much ruined all hope of me liking him as a person. I love him spiritually but I don’t like him now. But my decision to love despite my feelings of dislike mark me as a Christian and makes me feel like I am on track with my faith. Could this be what is meant by treating another as a heathen: still loving them but with certain boundaries or with a certain distance between us?

I think that you are fine. Of course you can have cordial relations with the man. It could even be that someone like him could be drawn away from sinful ways by someone like you. I’m not suggesting that in your case, only you can know your comfort level. I am just suggesting that such senerios possible.
St Paul tells converts who are married to “unbelievers” that they should remain married to them if their spouses are willing. (1Cor 7:12-16) “*16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife? *”.
Just so it might be in our all of our relations with others, and not just with husbands and wives. Our friendship with another, without compromising our faith of course, could act as a conduit for God’s Love to enter that person and save them.

So - in your relationship with this man you act in the way that you are most comfortable - praying fro his salvation, being cordial, possibly even telling him that his playboy shirt makes you uncomfortable if that seems appropriate to do. In this way you are serving God in Love without compromising your faith.

Peace
James

 

[spockrates]

As I understand things, we aren’t supposed to shun anyone but Christians who remain in majorly grievious sin despite our having fraternally corrected them (as in the case of the man who was in a relationship with his step mother mentioned in an an epistle) and this shunning would be for the sole sake of moving him to repentance. But with the heathens I believe we are supposed to love them and pray for them, even if we are only dealing with them on a businness level. But even when dealing with them we should treat them with dignity, kindness, mercy and patience as God treats us all with dignity, is merciful towards all, is kind and patient and lets his sun shine on the just and the unjust. He wants us to be just like Him and he shows his goodness to all, the just and unjust.

The Jews would shun heathens because that was what they were instructed to do in their religion, but with Chritianity we are called to love everyone including our enemies. If we are called to love even heathens, how can we feel right shunning them? What does shunning mean anyway? Maybe that’s why I don’t understand your posts…maybe I don’t know what shunning means.

No, I don’t hang out with pagans, but I pray for them and would try and treat them the same way I would Christians because God wants them and wants me to try and be a good example to them to help lead them to him. I couldn’t have good friends who were pagans because I am very orthodox and we wouldn’t have anything in common and they don’t follow Christ…but I don’t ignore them when I see them in my building.

I think what is meant by treating the Christian like a publican is something I need to understand further. I still don’t understand. Maybe it means to just love them and pray for them from a distance.

When you say you don’t hang out with pagans, do you mean you choose not to associate with non-Catholics, or you merely don’t have any opportunity to associate with them?

 

[spockrates]

Excellent point!
… I don’t feel I can trust him as a neighbor now that he shows me he promotes porn; he pretty much ruined all hope of me liking him as a person. I love him spiritually but I don’t like him now. But my decision to love despite my feelings of dislike mark me as a Christian and makes me feel like I am on track with my faith. Could this be what is meant by treating another as a heathen: still loving them but with certain boundaries or with a certain distance between us?

Yes, that is another good point by my good acquaintance James!



Do you think your friend promotes porn because he knows you don’t like it (and so he is being rude to you by trying to make you uncomfortable)? or do you think he has no idea how you feel about porn, and perhaps has no idea it is wrong, and is just trying to strike up a friendly conversation?

 

[ready]

Yes, that is another good point by my good acquaintance James!



Do you think your friend promotes porn because he knows you don’t like it (and so he is being rude to you by trying to make you uncomfortable)? or do you think he has no idea how you feel about porn, and perhaps has no idea it is wrong, and is just trying to strike up a friendly conversation?

The man with the tee-shirt is not and never was a friend of mine, only a fellow tenant in my building who says hello to me…sometimes he tries to shake my hand. One day he was walking with a cane that had the head of a snake on it’s very top which kind of scared me and he shook my hand. I didn’t feel good shaking the hand of a man that was just on the head of a cobra snake.

All men have the natural law inscibed upon their hearts and know that impurity and porn in wrong…I can’t excuse him for wearing such an evil tee-shirt. I’ll let myself be cordial to him in the future if it is possible, but right now I just feel like I need to avoid looking at him.

 

[ready]

So - in your relationship with this man you act in the way that you are most comfortable - praying fro his salvation, being cordial, possibly even telling him that his playboy shirt makes you uncomfortable if that seems appropriate to do. In this way you are serving God in Love without compromising your faith.

Peace
James

Yes, good advise; and please pray for me that I can be cordial again if the Lord is calling me to be…right now I am afraid to look at the man. Between his tee-shirt and his cobra cane I’m thinking I’m dealing with someone on the darker side.

 

[JRKH]

Yes, good advise; and please pray for me that I can be cordial again if the Lord is calling me to be…right now I am afraid to look at the man. Between his tee-shirt and his cobra cane I’m thinking I’m dealing with someone on the darker side.

You may well be.

You may also be dealing with a man who just likes snakes, and who bought the T-shirt at a thrift shop.

Years ago I ran a Leather shop. We sold a lot of Riding leather to motorcyclists. I can tell you that I met some of the nicest people - Rough, Crude, and not Christian in many cases, but friendly and quite easy to talk to and get along with. Some who came in were even members of “Christian” Motorcycle clubs.
Of course this was before I had returned to The church, though I still had a relationship with Christ. That is I had a “Christian Sensitivity” about things. Looking back on it now, I can see where I might not have carried certain items but on the whole I believe that I would have gotten along with these people just as well being a devout catholic as when I was not.

My point is that this person may not be as demonic as you are now thinking. I cannot know. his tee-shirt and his cane may not be as significant of his heart as you fear.
Keep praying and follow God’s lead.

Peace
James

 

[ready]

Keep praying and follow God’s lead.

I will…thanks!

 

[ready]

Yes, good advise; and please pray for me that I can be cordial again if the Lord is calling me to be…right now I am afraid to look at the man. Between his tee-shirt and his cobra cane I’m thinking I’m dealing with someone on the darker side.

I should say that I don’t think that God is calling me to be warm (cordial) with a man who is openly promoting impurity. I think God wants me to pray for him but God wants me to protect my purity which means keeping my distance from the man.

 

[spockrates]

The man with the tee-shirt is not and never was a friend of mine, only a fellow tenant in my building who says hello to me…sometimes he tries to shake my hand. One day he was walking with a cane that had the head of a snake on it’s very top which kind of scared me and he shook my hand. I didn’t feel good shaking the hand of a man that was just on the head of a cobra snake.

All men have the natural law inscibed upon their hearts and know that impurity and porn in wrong…I can’t excuse him for wearing such an evil tee-shirt. I’ll let myself be cordial to him in the future if it is possible, but right now I just feel like I need to avoid looking at him.

Ready:

Do you think capital punishment is evil?

 

[ready]

Ready:

Do you think capital punishment is evil?

I saw the man with the cane (though he wan’t with his cane) waiting to enter someone’s apartment down the hall and was able to smile at him. I was still at a little distance from him physically, but was able to be polite.

To answer your question, the Church says capital punishment is not allowed unless under certain circumstances. Unless those circumstances are met I think it would be an evil thing to do.

 

[spockrates]

I saw the man with the cane (though he wan’t with his cane) waiting to enter someone’s apartment down the hall and was able to smile at him. I was still at a little distance from him physically, but was able to be polite.

To answer your question, the Church says capital punishment is not allowed unless under certain circumstances. Unless those circumstances are met I think it would be an evil thing to do.

Do you think the circumstances were met in the case of Christ? Or do you think his torture and death was undeserved?

http://static-wear.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/172027__passion_l.jpg

 

[ready]

The Church only allows capital punishment when the criminal is a danger to the others around him and can not be contained alone. So there really is no case for capital punishment in the US or in most countries…prisoners can be kept in solitary confinement.

Christ was not a criminal so capital punishment wouldn’t even apply to Him.

 

[spockrates]

The Church only allows capital punishment when the criminal is a danger to the others around him and can not be contained alone. So there really is no case for capital punishment in the US or in most countries…prisoners can be kept in solitary confinement.

Christ was not a criminal so capital punishment wouldn’t even apply to Him.

Agreed. And what about wearing a crucifix, which is a symbol of this unjustified capital punishment. Is this practice justified?

 

[ready]

Agreed. And what about wearing a crucifix, which is a symbol of this unjustified capital punishment. Is this practice justified?

I understand the crucifix to be a symbol of Christ’s love for us.

 

[spockrates]

I understand the crucifix to be a symbol of Christ’s love for us.

That it is, Ready! I suppose it is also a symbol of His suffering and death. But it’s a little like wearing an electric chair around one’s neck, I suppose. If the guy with the snake cane asked you why you wear a tortured man on your neck, what would be your reply?

 

[ready]

That it is, Ready! I suppose it is also a symbol of His suffering and death. But it’s a little like wearing an electric chair around one’s neck, I suppose. If the guy with the snake cane asked you why you wear a tortured man on your neck, what would be your reply?

I would say I wear it as a sign of His love for me.

By the way, the cross is a sign quite different from the crucifix.

 

[spockrates]

Thanks Spock -
As I work to explain one thing I sometimes loose track of another.

Jesus did indeed mix with sinners, even those who felt “justified” and hated Him. Here I am refering to the Scribes and Pharasees who, the Gospels tell us, were always trying to “trip Him up” in some question or other.
Overall Jesus implication that we should “shun” needs to be seen within the context of the time and the training of the people. In the Old Covenent shunning was common. sometimes for physical reasons like shunning lepers and sometimes for sociological reasons, shunning heathens and “tax collectors”, sometimes for a combination of the two, shunning prostitutes.
In the New Covenent shunning is more problematic because the Good News is to be offered to all, Jew and Gentile, Righteous and Sinner alike so that All may have the opportunity to repent and be saved.
So in the New covenent we need to shun “beliefs” instead of people. That is we must witness to the truth of our beliefs to others who are unbelievers or wrong believers while being careul not to become infected by wrong beliefs ourselves.

Not sure if I explained that very well, It’s too early here, but I hope others will get my meaning.

Peace
James

Explained extremely well. Thank you, James!