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thecoach
Guest
Actually, not all that unreliable. I have just read the site a bit, and hje makes his cases quite well.
Former Catholic Priest Condemns the Catholic Church and Scott Hahn
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thecoach
Guest
Hatred? Perhaps the C’s are motivated by assumptions. The Spirit of Truth led him away, from bondage to the true freedom of Christ.
A
Al_Masetti
Guest
The more I study the Catholic Church, the more I appreciate her.
There is the teaching of the Church on spiritual issues.
There is the history of the Church and all of the persecutions she has suffered. There are all the various heresies and all of the efforts made to attempt to understand and to describe the Infinite God … impossible to do adequately, of course. Even St. Thomas Aquinas, arguably the greatest writer in the history of the Church, attempted to burn his work because he said it was so inadequate … he called it “straw” … worthless … when compared to the majesty of God’s Infinity.
Although a lot of writing has been lost over the centuries, there still is a tremendous body of writing by the Doctors of the Church and other Church Fathers available.
The Catholic Church is the best that we have in trying to appreciate and to reconcile ourselves to God.
Because there is a 2000-year history of Christianity and before that about another 3000-year history of Judaism, there is a lot of studying and learning to be done … impossible for each person to do in a single lifetime.
There is no question that there have been some nasty scandals. And some of them are real. But even some accusations about the Inquisition and the Crusades and other historical evens, upon review, have been found to be false.
I find it difficult to understand how someone can condemn the Catholic Church.
There is the teaching of the Church on spiritual issues.
There is the history of the Church and all of the persecutions she has suffered. There are all the various heresies and all of the efforts made to attempt to understand and to describe the Infinite God … impossible to do adequately, of course. Even St. Thomas Aquinas, arguably the greatest writer in the history of the Church, attempted to burn his work because he said it was so inadequate … he called it “straw” … worthless … when compared to the majesty of God’s Infinity.
Although a lot of writing has been lost over the centuries, there still is a tremendous body of writing by the Doctors of the Church and other Church Fathers available.
The Catholic Church is the best that we have in trying to appreciate and to reconcile ourselves to God.
Because there is a 2000-year history of Christianity and before that about another 3000-year history of Judaism, there is a lot of studying and learning to be done … impossible for each person to do in a single lifetime.
There is no question that there have been some nasty scandals. And some of them are real. But even some accusations about the Inquisition and the Crusades and other historical evens, upon review, have been found to be false.
I find it difficult to understand how someone can condemn the Catholic Church.
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thecoach
Guest
Because the more I studied, the more I learned to condemn and have reason to leave.
C
Claude_Kenneson
Guest
Did your leaving bring you to this forum? cool:
C
Contarini
Guest
Oh yes, and he fulfills his worldly ambitions by becoming a fundamentalist wacko?
Hardly.
Bennett’s ideas pretty much refute themselves. But since you don’t know his motivations, why not just refrain from speculating?
Edwin
C
Contarini
Guest
I like the story, but do you see how this kind of thing simply confirms evangelicals (not to say fundamentalists) in their prejudices? What kind of faith is it that can co-exist with habitual lust? To many evangelicals, the fact that “dirty old men” are so loud in their defense of Catholicism accentuates their concerns about “cultural Christianity” (not a problem in Catholicism alone, be it added).
I’m not saying this is fair. I’m divided in my reactions to this story myself. Part of me wants to cheer your uncle on, and part of me says “wait a minute!”
I guess I have a Catholic half and a Protestant half, kind of like the Took and Baggins in the Hobbit!
Edwin
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ralphinal
Guest
I know. I don’t disagree. The problem is that it would be dishonest of me to paint him as a saint. Now his sister was a saint. He was a normal human who had sins like the rest of us.
C
Contarini
Guest
I understand and appreciate your honesty. And it adds to the color of your story! I just heard this kind of story so often from the other side growing up.
Edwin
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ralphinal
Guest
I bet.
I want to see the denomination or religion without dirty old men in it. It would be all women.
po18guy
Well-known member
I forgive you. You know not whereof you speak.
J
joseph_virgen
Guest
this should be a warning to all catholics. the fallen one never sleeps. at the smallest injury, he is there to deepen the wound. in truth, the fallen one doubles his efforts in destroying those closest to the faith, our priests. remember, kill the shepard and the sheep will disperse.
knowingly, pray for the spiritual wellbeing of priests, for they are our first line of defence against the forces of the fallen one.
and when they fall, pray that they get up.
knowingly, pray for the spiritual wellbeing of priests, for they are our first line of defence against the forces of the fallen one.
and when they fall, pray that they get up.
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Aleii
Guest
While each person, including priests, make mistakes, the actions of one person who represented Catholicism was not the reason I am no longer Catholic - it stems from my troubles with basic principles of the faith/the Bible, and my issues with the Catholic God alone. It had nothing to do with a member of the Church. Here is my story if you are interested.So, why did you leave?
The reason is ALWAYS some variant of being scandalized by some behavior of some sinful Catholic, and not being able to separate the sinner from the sin, and imputing to the Church the evil of the person.
PLEASE show me ONE instance where that is not true? Thanks in advance.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3584309#post3584309
Please stop the blanket accusations.
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ralphinal
Guest
Hey Coach,
Not to rehash, but have you ever put your issues with the Church on here? If so, please drop me a link. IF not, would you mind a pm telling me about it? I like to know where people are coming from, not trying to argue anything.
Q
qui_est_ce
Guest
Yes, I would be interested as well. But in an objective manner. There are too many people making attacks. I find Contarini very helpful in my understanding of the Protestant view of Catholicism. When Evangelicals come here, thinking we never heard of their positions, and attack the “Roman” Catholic Church, they just sound ignorant and turn me off. I’m sure Protestants feel they same about Catholics who do the same.
Could you show me where Bennett makes his case quite well? I have read and listened to just about everything Scott and Kimberly Hahn have put out. I’m not real crazy about Scott’s folksy style, but that does not affect the truth of which he speaks.
Coach, your profile lists you as Catholic. Are you saying Bennett has been lead to truth or Hahn has been led to truth?
I
inthecloud
Guest
Was Bennett in the Philipines? I heard things, I heard things.
Maybe Agnostheist or some one should look into them.
That might explain his hatred for the CC.
Maybe Agnostheist or some one should look into them.
That might explain his hatred for the CC.
C
CatsAndDogs
Guest
OK,… according to your story, your “one” of your major problems was the thought that a “good” person could be “SENT” to hell for some “unjust” reason.
No one is SENT to hell. They choose hell. Also, God is incapable of BEING unjust, therefore it is simply impossible for Him to “unjustly” do anything.
The reason you “left the Church” was because you didn’t know who God was, and was disappointed by not getting “what you wanted when you wanted it”.
You were “scandalised” away from the Church because SOMEONE misinformed you of the facts of Christianity as Catholics need to know it.
It is not a blanket statement to say that people LEAVE the Church because they are led into misunderstandings which when seen as UNDERSTANDINGS veritably, and rightly, COMPEL them to leave the Church!
It is simply a fact.
V
vocatio
Guest
You comments ring true to some degree. Some of us were hurt …or even abandoned, left for dead so to speak. Some of us were products of mixed religious faiths, something I despirately attempt to direct people away from not only from my parents, relatives, but also from my own personal experience. I saw many Catholics use annulments like it’s a Catholic divorce…as if it is okay and not scandalous. Some of us were victims. If you’ve ever been victimized you’d konw what I mean. When men or women in sacred offices commit awful crimes against the inosent, young inexperienced adults, they commit a grave sin that causes a lot of hardship. I could carry on abou this topic because it is rather personal for me.
There is truth in what you say, but the next question to ask is invincible ignorance and culpability. Sometimes wounds need time to heal and people need time to learn. Whe looking for truth and you get mixed answers it’s often difficult to know what the real truth is in a world bent on pushing their own agenas. It’s a wonder that more people don’t fall away when you look at the intensity of it all. Pride is often overstated. There is an element of self-preservation that must be considered.
It’s true sometimes that the worst of anything is someone from that broke away from that frame of thought. Probably because they’re still fighting internally with what they used to believe. Sometimes its truly ignorant pride and others it is selfish pride. I’m sure someone has terms up their sleeve for what I’m trying to say.
If the pride of the priests I ran into was less than my pride I may never have fallen away from the Church. My biggest lesson that I learned through this heart breaking experience is that we all need to be on guard against the evil one who is out to devour us. Anyone can fall into this pit. But I do believe that if you are truly seeking God you will find him. In my case it lead me back Home and with my wife who proselytized me years ago. The only reason I hand out of these forums is to learn apologetics and help as many Catholics both in and fallen away with what I’ve learned to date. I also look for things I should know.
Being a priest does not necessitate being an “expert”. Some of the dummest people I’ve met were the smartest and/or most educated.
po18guy
Well-known member
Know why there are too many American annulments? There were too many unfounded marriages! Many of them should never have been married in the first place. All the annulment states is that, in fact, there was no actual marriage.
And the American priest scandal? The sexual revolution, tolerance, then acceptance of homosexual behavior in the Seminaries. Then, tolerance, and acceptance of some of the worst human behavior imaginable in the Priesthood.
The church is rotting because American society has already rotted. These are both primarily American problems! It’s not the church, its the rot in American society. This is a spiritual attack. It took us only 40 years to notice it.
The church declined when it stopped believing certain things and began believing everything. The counter attack has begun. The first salvos have already been fired.
Christ’s peace.
A
Al_Masetti
Guest
To the above, you also need to add the breakdown in Catholic education. The Catholic Church stopped teaching. And this was due to the intrusion of political correctness … [no memorization allowed; so let’s get rid of the Baltimore Catechism].
No more apologetics. No more evangelization.
Many Catholics fled to more rigorous bible-oriented Evangelical and Pentacostal churches … not realizing they were giving up the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
Now we glory in a mere dozen conversions at a parish, but there used to be hundreds at each parish.
And a lot of this was due to the rise of bureaucracy in the Church.
It’s not so much that the Church stopped believing, but that some members focused on gaining power for themselves and stopped telling people the teachings of the Church.
Believe it or not, there was a time when immediately after the dismissal at Sunday Mass, the priest and the whole congregation would kneel for prayers that he led for the conversion of Russia.
There used to be Holy Name Societies. There used to be novenas of all kinds.
In the name of political correctness, all that stuff was done away with … and numerous church buildings were “renovated” to remove all traces of traditional Catholic worship. At one church, there were even plans to transform the sanctuary into a “Protestant model” with the organ pipes relocated from the choir loft to the space where the main altar was. [The parishioners fought successfully long and hard and stopped that part of it. A later pastor referred to it as “World War III”. Some parishioners even went to Rome and complained to the Holy Father.]
The big turnaround started to take place when Karl Keating started up Catholic Answers. There was this huge time gap … between the throwing of the Baltimore Catechism under the bus and the startup of Catholic Answers.
In a meeting, Avery Cardinal Dulles said that the Catholic Church in the U.S. had spent a huge amount of money on evangelization but had absolutely nothing to show for it.
The turnaround, though, will not happen through interminable meeting after meeting (with or without donuts). It will only happen by evangelization and re-evangelization … one person at a time. Doing the reading and the praying.
Lay people are pushing their pastors to institute Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration, which is hugely successful.
So, now there is a grass roots effort led by folks like Karl Keating, Scott Hahn, Mother Angelica and EWTN, Patrick Madrid, Tom Monaghan, Marcus Grodi, writers like Dinesh D’Souza, and others to bring the level of apologetics and evangelization up to where it needs to be.*
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