Former Catholics become anti-Catholic

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Xavier:
You have assumed Im Sola Scriptura, wrongly.
Please state a source other than Scripture on which you rely.
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Xavier:
Why do you continue to mock me?
I use humour because you persist in attempting (futilely) to dismantle teachings which you clearly do not understand. Moreover, your position has been one of browbeating us and our Church with what? Nothing more substantial than strawmen.
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Xavier:
Sounds like a lot of bitterness to me.
A rhetorical response with the substance of air. What you condemn as bitterness is insight into the plight of a man who was very very ill. And very very Alone.
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Xavier:
Catholics refuse to take responsiblity in the schism.
A sweeping generalization supported neither by argumentation nor by authority and a rhetorical response with the substance of air. The responsibility for the Schism did not rightfully belong to the Church. The responsibility for some of the abuses of power among certain members of the Church lay with those members. Moreover, as Church Militant has explained, those errors were addressed and corrected.

The responsibility for the Schism lay squarely at Luther’s doorstep. If the Church had had the knowledge of things such as post-traumatic stress disorder (as only one example), then, She would have been in a far stronger position to help Luther. But She did not have that knowledge. She did the best She could to deal with Luther in a compassionate, understanding, and responsible manner, until Luther tied Her hands by exercising his free will to assert the supremacy of his own intellect – an intellect seriously impaired by cognitive distortions resulting from his response to childhood violence.
  • No one forced Luther to let his work slide.
  • **No one forced Luther to withdraw from the support and love of his fellow monks when he was in pain. **
  • **No one forced Luther to disobey the concerned and worried directives of his superiors and seek instead his own counsel. **
  • No one forced Luther to starve himself, deprive himself of sleep, and flog himself until he was delusional.
  • No one forced Luther to be rude, aggressive, and arrogant.
  • No one forced Luther to make agreements and then break them.
  • No one forced Luther to seek defence mechanisms instead of the truth.
  • No one forced Luther to ally with ruffians whose motives could in no way be considered charitable.
  • No one forced Luther to persist in his error even in the face of enormous collateral damage.
While all of Luther’s behaviour had a contributing compulsive component, he nevertheless chose all those courses of action. Why do I say that? Because he knew better. For all the horrors of his childhood home, he also knew the peace and companionship of monastery life. By chosing unwisely, he closed himself to any dialogue which would have prevented the Schism, spared countless lives, and snatched him from the jaws of public infamy.

May God rest this man’s soul – poor lonely, tormented man that he was. And may God rest all the souls of all people like Luther, who struggle daily to free themselves from the demons of childhood violence. May God grant them the gift of trust so that they might come home to us where we may embrace them and give them the comfort and the confidence necessary to finally experience peace and joy. FSHS Amen.

Perhaps, ultimately, one way of looking at the Schism is that (some) people did the best they could with what they knew and now that people know better, they do better. Some people, however, knew enough then to refrain from doing harm, but they did it anyway.
 
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Xavier:
My friend I wish you no more discord.
I have not dodged your answers, you have not listened to my answers.
Love God with all your heart.
Peace.
No no…this won’t do. You just refuse to discourse with anyone that actually can answer you posts with the truth. That’s just plain dishonest. 😛

To All Posters Here:
Please weigh in by your posts if you agree that Xavier has intentionally attempted to ignore or dodge my valid posts verses his allegations. Thank you!
CM 🙂
 
Ani Ibi:
Please state a source other than Scripture on which you rely.
Divine revelation.
Admit it you were hoping I wouldnt recognize that you were writting gibberish.
A rhetorical response with the substance of air. What you condemn as bitterness is insight into the plight of a man who was very very ill. And very very Alone.

A sweeping generalization supported neither by argumentation nor by authority and a rhetorical response with the substance of air. The responsibility for the Schism did not rightfully belong to the Church. The responsibility for some of the abuses of power among certain members of the Church lay with those members
. Moreover, as Church Militant has explained, those errors were addressed and corrected.

The responsibility for the Schism lay squarely at Luther’s doorstep. If the Church had had the knowledge of things such as post-traumatic stress disorder (as only one example), then, She would have been in a far stronger position to help Luther. But She did not have that knowledge. She did the best She could to deal with Luther in a compassionate, understanding, and responsible manner, until Luther tied Her hands by exercising his free will to assert the supremacy of his own intellect – an intellect seriously impaired by cognitive distortions resulting from his response to childhood violence.
  • No one forced Luther to let his work slide.
  • **No one forced Luther to withdraw from the support and love of his fellow monks when he was in pain. **
  • **No one forced Luther to disobey the concerned and worried directives of his superiors and seek instead his own counsel. **
  • No one forced Luther to starve himself, deprive himself of sleep, and flog himself until he was delusional.
  • No one forced Luther to be rude, aggressive, and arrogant.
  • No one forced Luther to make agreements and then break them.
  • No one forced Luther to seek defence mechanisms instead of the truth.
  • No one forced Luther to ally with ruffians whose motives could in no way be considered charitable.
  • No one forced Luther to persist in his error even in the face of enormous collateral damage.
While all of Luther’s behaviour had a contributing compulsive component, he nevertheless chose all those courses of action. Why do I say that? Because he knew better. For all the horrors of his childhood home, he also knew the peace and companionship of monastery life. By chosing unwisely, he closed himself to any dialogue which would have prevented the Schism, spared countless lives, and snatched him from the jaws of public infamy.

May God rest this man’s soul – poor lonely, tormented man that he was. And may God rest all the souls of all people like Luther, who struggle daily to free themselves from the demons of childhood violence. May God grant them the gift of trust so that they might come home to us where we may embrace them and give them the comfort and the confidence necessary to finally experience peace and joy. FSHS Amen.

Perhaps, ultimately, one way of looking at the Schism is that (some) people did the best they could with what they knew and now that people know better, they do better. Some people, however, knew enough then to refrain from doing harm, but they did it anyway.

My point exactly ----for Catholics its all Luthers fault.
 
The question as to why ex-catholics are frequently fervent anti-catholic deserves serious consideration. Understanding the answers to the question might enable us to reach more people before they become “anti-catholic.” Mud slinging and arguments won’t accomplish very much.
One pre-requisite will be a little honesty on our part.
If I have to be the first Catholic in this thread to speak this truth then so be it.
The first thing you need to understand is that many self-proclaimed catholics lead spiritually starved lives within the Church. They get catechised as young children and confirmed in their early teens and then receive almost no adult religious education. They do nothing to nourish their spirituality except attend Mass once a week (at best) in an obligatory fashion and may often have a limited prayer life. There is probably minimal communication with others in their parish regarding their walk with Christ. In addition, they probably never got any feedback whatsoever from the parish that there was anything wrong with the situation. They come to understand, mistakenly, themselves as a “true catholic” and their lifestyle as the “Catholic” lifestyle. If this weren’t bad enough, they get no feedback from their parish that they are not on the right path. Lonliness and spiritual emptiness becomes their norm.
Then something happens in their life to expose them to an outside church. They find a tremendous sense of community and lots of things to keep them busy: their in a bible study, sunday school, prayer group, etc. They start to experience the presence of Christ in a way they have not for a long time. This is all good in my opinion. But what happens next is not so good. They then look at where they are - their new spiritual life and all their activities - and they compare it to their experience in the Church and become angered at how long they were in their spiritually starved state. And rather than put the slightest blame on themselves for not participating in the bible studies, prayer groups, fellowship stuff, etc available through their former parish, their anger gets directed toward the Catholic Church. Sometimes this anger gets magnified by anti-catholic elements within their new setting, but often not. It simply is the natural result of misplacing some of the blame.
How should you and I respond? We have been given a tremendous gift of faith - we should be faithful stewards of that gift and seek to build our parishes into thriving communities. Get involved: teach ADULT religious education, get involved with a prayer group, get to know people; and live your faith. If we stand by and try to blame “ex-catholics” rather than understanding and learning from our failures we will have failed the very Church we claim to love.

Phil
 
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Xavier:
Divine revelation.
Wait, so besides Scripture you also go by divine revelation? Is that revelation revealed only to you? I’m curious as to what has been revealed to you. Can you give some examples?
 
Has it not yet become so obvious that Xavier wants nothing more than to get a rise out of everyone? Why do you guys keep wasting your energy on him?
 
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Genesis315:
Wait, so besides Scripture you also go by divine revelation? Is that revelation revealed only to you? I’m curious as to what has been revealed to you. Can you give some examples?
God revealed himself to joseph in dreams several times.
If Joseph relied on only scripture and tradition he would have never married Mary. Abraham would never have lft the home of his father.
God desires to reveal Himself to all peoples.
 
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Xavier:
God revealed himself to joseph in dreams several times.
If Joseph relied on only scripture and tradition he would have never married Mary. Abraham would never have lft the home of his father.
God desires to reveal Himself to all peoples.
so you’ve had some cool dreams huh? are you allowed to talk about them?
 
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Philthy:
And rather than put the slightest blame on themselves for not participating in the bible studies, prayer groups, fellowship stuff, etc available through their former parish, their anger gets directed toward the Catholic Church. Sometimes this anger gets magnified by anti-catholic elements within their new setting, but often not. It simply is the natural result of misplacing some of the blame.
How should you and I respond? We have been given a tremendous gift of faith - we should be faithful stewards of that gift and seek to build our parishes into thriving communities. Get involved: teach ADULT religious education, get involved with a prayer group, get to know people; and live your faith. If we stand by and try to blame “ex-catholics” rather than understanding and learning from our failures we will have failed the very Church we claim to love.

Phil
KNOW THE LORD YOUR GOD

I went to every prayer group, every bible study joined the Knights of Columbus yet I met only one saint of God who could show me the hunger and thirst that I had for God.
I dont blame the Church how can I not rejoice in the pearl of great price I have found. Not a church not a dogma not a teadching. But a Presence of the living God that is always with me, He never leaves me. Some here may know what Im talking about but there are some that would persist in arguing with me that have not the slightest idea who God is in their lives.
Why am I here?
For closure.
 
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Xavier:
Remember the Tower of Babel?
It is only in Christ that we can be in unity.
It is imperative we all know the Living God, not know about Him, not know what the Church teaches about Him but to know Him, to walk with him to trust in Him.
Im not saying that Catholics dont know God or walk with Him.
What Im saying is if you do it doesnt really matter that you are Catholic or Baptist or whatever.
Just stop worshipping idols;)
How many times do you have to be told we don’t worship idols?:tsktsk:
 
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Genesis315:
so you’ve had some cool dreams huh? are you allowed to talk about them?
Ill star a new thread in a little while.

On second thought I’ll call it a night.

Peace.
 
Church Militant:
No no…this won’t do. You just refuse to discourse with anyone that actually can answer you posts with the truth. That’s just plain dishonest. 😛

To All Posters Here:
Please weigh in by your posts if you agree that Xavier has intentionally attempted to ignore or dodge my valid posts verses his allegations. Thank you!
CM 🙂
Yes, he has dodged using the bait and switch.He comes up with one issue and when you prove him wrong he stops and hops to another issue,then proceeds to shamelessly mangle scripture to attempt to prove his chosen interperation.God Bless
 
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Curious:
I’m not worshipping idols. :confused:
Hello, Curious:) You are getting a taste of what we go through and I am sorry,that he went there with you.God Bless
 
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Xavier:
Ill star a new thread in a little while.

On second thought I’ll call it a night.

Peace.
Oh man, this was just starting to get interesting…
 
Church Militant:
To All Posters Here:
Please weigh in by your posts if you agree that Xavier has intentionally attempted to ignore or dodge my valid posts verses his allegations. Thank you!
CM 🙂
A list of questions (on this page) which have not been answered by Xavier:

Ani: What kind of a religion is ex-Catholicism?

Xavier: No response.

Xavier: (the selling of indulgences to build the Basilica in Rome etc etc

Church Militant: This was corrected by the Council of Trent.

Xavier: No response.

Xavier: You have assumed Im Sola Scriptura, wrongly.

Church Militant: What is that then when you allege that the Bible is the only source of authority for what Christians believe?

Xavier: No response.

Mickey: Since you say that some sins are more grievious than others, does that mean that you believe in mortal and venial sin?

Xavier: No response.

Mickey: did you know that Luther murdered the Anabaptists?

Xavier: No response.

Xavier: I have no issue with the Catholic church deciding who should be or not be priests…

Evades the question that Xavier claims that Church teaching requiring priests to be celibate is unbiblical.

Genesis 315: If it was so straightforward and easy to intepret, why do some people intepret literally and some allegorically or symbolically on such basic fundamental issues as salvation. Philip had to help the Ethiopian to understand the Scripture; he couldn’t do it in his own. (Acts 8:30-31).

Xavier: No response.

Ani: if the Bible were not very straightforward and easy to interpret, then God would not desire all should read it?

Xavier: No response.

Ani: At least until the advent of the Guttenberg printing press, over 90% of the Church were illiterate. If all were to read the Bible, then how were they supposed to obtain Bibles to read? Before Guttenberg, Bibles were hand copied. The ratio of Bibles to Christians was miniscule. It was virtually impossible for the vast majority of Christians either to be able to read the Bible or to obtain Bibles to read. Do you think God wanted to communicate with only the wealthy, educated members of the Church?

Xavier: No response.

The word Logos is the term by which Christian theology in the Greek language designates the Word of God, or Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.

Zavier: It was the second Vatican Council amoung others that upheld that the bible is the inspired inerrant word of God.

Evades the question of reconciling the two seemingly disparate uses of terminology. (Truth does not contradict itself.)

 
Continued…

A list of questions (on this page) which have not been answered by Xavier:

Ani: Which Bible? Which translation? Which interpretative-skill-set? What about the Septuagint? Is that easy to interpret?

Xavier: I would suggest a good word for word translation using the majority text.

Evades the question (supra) of why choose one Bible over another? Evades the question of differences between translations. Evades the question of what interpretative-skill-set is brought to bear and by what authority that ISS is chosen.

Curious: But how do you account for 2 people, both well-meaning, God-loving, God-fearing people who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit who come to two different conclusions about what a scripture means?

Xavier: Remember the Tower of Babel?
It is only in Christ that we can be in unity.
It is imperative we all know the Living God, not know about Him, not know what the Church teaches about Him but to know Him, to walk with him to trust in Him.
Im not saying that Catholics dont know God or walk with Him.
What Im saying is if you do it doesnt really matter that you are Catholic or Baptist or whatever.
Just stop worshipping idols

Evades the question.

Xavier: the institution of the RCC went astray and is still defended to this day for being in error. (the selling of indulgences to build the Basilica in Rome etc etc

Ani: While all of Luther’s behaviour had a contributing compulsive component, he nevertheless chose all those courses of action. Why do I say that? Because he knew better. For all the horrors of his childhood home, he also knew the peace and companionship of monastery life. By chosing unwisely, he closed himself to any dialogue which would have prevented the Schism.

Xavier: No response.
 
Hello, Curious:) You are getting a taste of what we go through and I am sorry,that he went there with you.God Bless
Heheh…thanks. It just caught me off guard. But I shall count myself in good company. 😉
 
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