Former Catholics become anti-Catholic

[Ani_Ibi]

Xavier:

Divine revelation.

By what means do you verify the divine origin of the experience you call divine relevation? And I see, you evade the central question yet again: By what means do you infallibly interpret such revelation? More to the point, the question of you having divine revelations raises the possibility that you speak with authority (by definition). How must others respond to you and your divine revelations? By what means can others verify when you are speaking out of divine revelation or when you are just making things up as you go along?

Xavier:

Admit it you were hoping I wouldnt recognize that you were writting gibberish.

It never crossed my mind that you might think I was writing gibberish. However, now that you raise the subject, apparently what I have said has fallen on deaf ears. Is that your excuse for evading the vast majority of my points and questions?

Xavier:

My point exactly ----for Catholics its all Luthers fault.

The Schism was. And I think, any thoughtful, compassionate person would recognize the compelling case for Luther’s culpability. Nevertheless, you evade Church Militant’s point that the grievance you raised concerning indulgences had been corrected.

 

[Church_Militant]

Curious:

Heheh…thanks. It just caught me off guard. But I shall count myself in good company.

Hey my sister!
Thanks for countin’ us good company .
Don’t sweat this dude…he’s got nothing but rhetoric. He wants to get us all to lay down like good little idiots while he tramples all over the facts and the good name of Holy Mother Church. Not on my watch…
You all are the best and I’m grateful for your company here. Let’s all remember Xavier and all his A/C buddies at Mass & in all our private prayers, that the Holy Spirit will give us the right words and wisdom that none of our opponents will be able to resist or refute. (Luke 21:15)
Love to all.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Xavier:

KNOW THE LORD YOUR GOD

I went to every prayer group, every bible study joined the Knights of Columbus yet I met only one saint of God who could show me the hunger and thirst that I had for God.
I dont blame the Church how can I not rejoice in the pearl of great price I have found. Not a church not a dogma not a teadching. But a Presence of the living God that is always with me, He never leaves me. Some here may know what Im talking about but there are some that would persist in arguing with me that have not the slightest idea who God is in their lives.
Why am I here?
For closure.

First off I am not yelling This is for emphasis sake.You make assumptions based on the reaction or the willingness of them to share their relationship with God with you,so you are basing your faith on overt emotionalism.Second you can not presume because you didn’t get it in the Church that it is not in the Church.Third to act like you know what our relationship with God is, is presumptuous and false I used to be a protestant,I am a Catholic till death.Why?An answer to a prayer,I had an unexplainable experience with the Holy Spirit that pulled me in to the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception.I am going to propose to you,that you aren’t here for closure You are here because God is trying to get to you and bring you back home.God Bless
PS St.Francis reformed from within, if you find apathy on the part of the parish you attended,maybe you should have done something about it instead of continuing the great divide.Please think about that.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Philthy:

The question as to why ex-catholics are frequently fervent anti-catholic deserves serious consideration.

Agreed.

Philthy:

Understanding the answers to the question might enable us to reach more people before they become “anti-catholic.”

Agreed.

Philthy:

Mud slinging and arguments won’t accomplish very much.

Please explain what you mean, giving specific examples.

Philthy:

One pre-requisite will be a little honesty on our part. If I have to be the first Catholic in this thread to speak this truth then so be it.

The truth? Much better spoken to say ‘your truth.’

As for the rest of your post:

I agree that much more can be done to have adult continuing classes and get togethers in the Church. Having said that, in Toronto, there are so many Catholic courses to take, so many Catholic Bible studies, prayer groups, concerts, and so on that there is absolutely no excuse for people blaming the Church for their spiritual starvation. If parishioners never got any feedback, it is because they never asked for any. They did not seek spiritual direction when it was available. The Church is not a daycare centre. It is primarily a place of worship.

Philthy:

They then look at where they are - their new spiritual life and all their activities - and they compare it to their experience in the Church and become angered at how long they were in their spiritually starved state. And rather than put the slightest blame on themselves for not participating in the bible studies, prayer groups, fellowship stuff, etc available through their former parish, their anger gets directed toward the Catholic Church.

Their anger gets directed toward the Catholic Church? Who do you think it is who directs that anger? Cafeteria Catholics direct that anger. Why? Because they are not having their unreasonable demands met within the Church. The Church is not Disneyland.

Philthy:

we should be faithful stewards of that gift and seek to build our parishes into thriving communities. Get involved: teach ADULT religious education, get involved with a prayer group, get to know people; and live your faith.

Agreed.

Philthy:

If we stand by and try to blame “ex-catholics” rather than understanding and learning from our failures we will have failed the very Church we claim to love.

Phil

Yes, you are quite right about looking at our failures. We cannot, like Luther, sweep them under the carpet. I am not aware of anyone on this thread who has blamed ex-Catholics for anything other than their uninformed vitriol against Catholics. And well they should be taken to task for projecting onto us their failure to get the straight goods on Catholicism.

 

[Philthy]

Xavier:

KNOW THE LORD YOUR GOD

I went to every prayer group, every bible study joined the Knights of Columbus yet I met only one saint of God who could show me the hunger and thirst that I had for God.

I’m guessing this saint was not Catholic - is that your point? By leaving out this detail your point is not easily understood.

Xavier:

I dont blame the Church how can I not rejoice in the pearl of great price I have found. Not a church not a dogma not a teadching.

Again, I’m not sure what you are trying to say. Are you saying that you have no anger toward the Church since you are now at peace?

Xavier:

But a Presence of the living God that is always with me, He never leaves me. Some here may know what Im talking about but there are some that would persist in arguing with me that have not the slightest idea who God is in their lives.

This may be true but you would do well to find more charitable ways of expressing yourself. For example, rather than make an accusation which you can’t substantiate (“some…have not the slightest idea who God is in their lives.”) you could simply say that as a result of some of the exchanges you’ve had with some individuals that it leads you to believe that some don’t know who God is in their lives. Much more charitable.

Xavier:

Why am I here?
For closure.

Well no wonder you’re causing so much trouble! The rest of us are trying to find out why ex-Catholics often demonstrate animosity toward the Church unlike their ex-Protestant counterparts.
Sriously though, it sounds like your conversion is a relatively recent one. Well peace be with you then. I sincerely hope you find the truth you seek. Don’t be surprised if it’s not the truth you expected…

Phil

 

[SusanL]

Xavier:

You have assumed Im Sola Scriptura, wrongly.

Why do you continue to mock me?

Sounds like a lot of bitterness to me.
Catholics refuse to take responsiblity in the schism. It was sin, corporate sin that caused the break. Again Luther had his shortcomings (personal sin) The corporate sin He fought against was more grevious.

Wow. You just don’t want to give an inch, do you? Bitterness?? Mocking?? Luther had his shortcomings??? Please.
Your arguments are crumbling like a deck of cards.

Please, give up the thread. Just step back, pray real hard to Our Lord and ask him what he wants you to do, and then listen real hard for his answer. You are answering out of bitterness and anger. Anger because there are some very educated posters here listing references with their responses. The old trick of provoking people into anger and then acting innocent isn’t working here.

Step back and save some face, will ya?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Genesis315:

Wait, so besides Scripture you also go by divine revelation? Is that revelation revealed only to you? I’m curious as to what has been revealed to you. Can you give some examples?

Xavier:

God revealed himself to joseph in dreams several times. If Joseph relied on only scripture and tradition he would have never married Mary. Abraham would never have lft the home of his father. God desires to reveal Himself to all peoples.

You have evaded Genesis315’s questions.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Lisa4Catholics:

I am going to propose to you, that you aren’t here for closure

I agree. A person who is ready for closure leaves. A person who is ready for closure doesn’t hang around trying to be right.

Xavier, with all due respect, you have unfinished business. Very little of this unfinished business is about the Church. But, in the Church, you have found a whipping boy, people to diminish. That makes you feel like a big guy.
Church Militant:

You are here because God is trying to get to you and bring you back home.

God will use what’s there. God is always trying to bring the lost sheep home.

 

[Philthy]

Hi Ani Ibi-
Let me take a second to say that I have read some of your posts in the past (other threads primarily) and have been very impressed with your wealth of knowledge and analytical approach. Thank you for sharing and being a defender of the faith!

Philthy:

Mud slinging and arguments won’t accomplish very much.

Ani Ibi:

Please explain what you mean, giving specific examples.

I’m going to assume that you know what “mudslinging” means and what “arguments” means and that what you are really trying to say is that you disagree that any of that has occurred on this thread aimed at answering the simple question, “Why do many ex-Catholics have anger toward the Church whereas most ex-Protestants don’t?”
I’ll agree to disagree without typing another word on the board. If you don’t think that some have taken an argumentative approach I’d rather send you a PM with citations than potentially embarrass anyone through my accusations which may not represent the intent of the poster. I didn’t mean to implicate anyone in particular and I’m sorry if you somehow got offended.

Philthy:
One pre-requisite will be a little honesty on our part. If I have to be the first Catholic in this thread to speak this truth then so be it.
Ani Ibi:

The truth? Much better spoken to say ‘your truth.’

I can see where you would be upset if I declared my opinion as THE truth, but if you look at the quote I actually said THIS truth, which simply means one of other various truths. Also, I think I erred gramatically in that you think the truth Im referring to is “a little honesty”. Actually I was simply referring to the truth of what follows in my post: of many Catholics living a spiritually numb life within the Church and basically being isolated without a tremendous amount of feedback from the parish community. I wasn’t accusing anyone of dishonesty.

con’d

 

[Philthy]

Ani Ibi:

As for the rest of your post:

I agree that much more can be done to have adult continuing classes and get togethers in the Church. Having said that, in Toronto, there are so many Catholic courses to take, so many Catholic Bible studies, prayer groups, concerts, and so on that there is absolutely no excuse for people blaming the Church for their spiritual starvation.

I can’t comment on the parish atmosphere in Toronto, but I would disagree with your characterization of “absolutely no excuse”. What if participation in these activities is extremely minimal and someone comes to understand the Church’s apparent indifference as an indication that these activities are not that important? I simply think it should be promoted more and the sense of community should be bult up a bit. “We must consider how to rouse one another to love and good works…”
Ani Ibi:

If parishioners never got any feedback, it is because they never asked for any. They did not seek spiritual direction when it was available. The Church is not a daycare centre. It is primarily a place of worship.

The church has many functions. Daycare is one of them - don’t you have a crying room and a “little kids” activity group during Mass at your parish? Perhaps we are misconnecting on the terms Church and church? The Church should be involved with any activity that leads to a fuller appreciation of Jesus Christ. Identifying and ministering to those who are in need of spiritual encouragement seems a natural function of the church to me.

More relevant though, is that you seem to be DEFENDING the Church in response to people’s misplaced anger - that’s fine. The only problem is that’s not what this thread is about. It’s not about DEFENDING the Church and explaing why the ex-catholics are wrong, it’s about understanding WHY ex-Catholics have anger toward the Church. I’m attempting to explain WHY there is anger and what we can do to change that.
Ani Ibi:

Their anger gets directed toward the Catholic Church? Who do you think it is who directs that anger? Cafeteria Catholics direct that anger. Why? Because they are not having their unreasonable demands met within the Church. The Church is not Disneyland.

Explaining all anti-catholic sentiment as the result of the “unreasonable demands” of Cafeteria Catholics is lacking in my opinion. Even if I were to grant it as being true we would still want to know WHY it happens and what it is about their new situation that they find so appealling. My perspective may not be as broad as yours is, but my original post is one born of experience. I don’t know how many ex-catholics it applies to, but I think it represents enough of a problem that we should seek to remedy it.

Thanks for your response,

Phil

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Philthy:

I can’t comment on the parish atmosphere in Toronto, but I would disagree with your characterization of “absolutely no excuse”.

There is absolutely no excuse. There is a cornucopia of Church activities in which to participate in Toronto. This cornucopia demonstrates that the Church in Toronto is not indifferent.

Philthy:
The church has many functions.

Yes.

Philthy:

Daycare is one of them - don’t you have a crying room and a “little kids” activity group during Mass at your parish?

Yes. I do. A friend of mine left the Catholic Church because her parish didn’t have daycare for her kids. And a few other reasons like coming to grips with her drug addiction and shoplifting. As a Catholic she would have to go to confession. To this day, all those drugs and theft are never discussed.

Philthy:

Identifying and ministering to those who are in need of spiritual encouragement seems a natural function of the church to me.

And it’s there. People have to make some effort to get to where it is offered.

Philthy:

More relevant though, is that you seem to be DEFENDING the Church in response to people’s misplaced anger - that’s fine. The only problem is that’s not what this thread is about.

Tell that to Xavier.

Philthy:

it’s about understanding WHY ex-Catholics have anger toward the Church. I’m attempting to explain WHY there is anger and what we can do to change that.

The posts on Luther. Read em again.

Philthy:
Explaining all anti-catholic sentiment as the result of the “unreasonable demands” of Cafeteria Catholics is lacking in my opinion.

All? Explain and justify please.

Philthy:

Even if I were to grant it as being true we would still want to know WHY it happens and what it is about their new situation that they find so appealling

.

And I would want them to get real and tell the truth which was exactly what we were asking for on this thread.

Philthy:

I think it represents enough of a problem that we should seek to remedy it.

We are seeking to remedy it.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

So Philthy. You’ve declined to state your religion on your profile. Log? Mote?

 

[TNT]

Xavier:

You have found it neccesary to shout again?

He may just have poor vision, like me. Sometimes I can see ok, other times everything is a blur so then I
write big
So, disregard the customary “shouting” by big print or caps.
Thanks.
Mr Magoo

 

[Church_Militant]

TNT:

He may just have poor vision, like me. Sometimes I can see ok, other times everything is a blur so then I
write big
So, disregard the customary “shouting” by big print or caps.
Thanks.
Mr Magoo

LOL

Gotta love ya TNT…gotta love ya. In fact you’re right…it’s simply for easier reading since long posts can really be hard on the eyeballs.

As for Ani & Philthy…I think you guys just misunderstood each other’s statements and have wandered way off topic (as is my comments here to TNT ). Shake hands and offer it up for Lenten penance or something and get on with the good stuff. the difficulties of individual Catholic churches & individual Catholics in no way justifies the vitriol of A/Cs who left the church for whatever reason… that is only effectively dealt with one on one and those of us with burdens for building up the church need to get our hands dirty the way St. Francis of Asissi did.
Love you guys…hold fast.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Philthy]

Ani Ibi:

So Philthy. You’ve declined to state your religion on your profile. Log? Mote?

So Ani Ibi - why don’t you simply ask me the question you want an answer to rather than making an accusation? For example - why do you say that I have “declined” to state my religion? I don’t think I declined anything. I don’t even know how to access my profile!
I’m Catholic. A week ago I would have said I’m Roman Catholic but I have since learned that that is actually a derogatory term started by the reformers (which has subsequently lost it’s original meaning and has become more acceptable.) Log is a mathmatical function to me and Mote is a wetland isn’t it?

Did I say something you considered offensive or even borderline anti-Catholic or something? Do you think I’m too tolerant or what? I’m not particularly knowledgable (not a big reader) but I do possess reasonable analytical skills and this allows me to argue effectively with almost anyone. I mean argue in the constructive sense - I’m sorry if you feel I’ve been combative or something. Maybe you’d feel a little better about me if you read some of the posts Ozzie and I got into…

Friends?

Phil

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Hello,Ani lbi and Philthy You guys are more than friends you guys like me and alot of others here are Catholics We are family all united in Christ and sometimes like all brothers and sisters we bicker a bit But don’t let anyone else mess with us,that is twirling time I just wanted to cheer you up as someone who only at this point has the ability to literally put my two cents in,and loves watching you guys who are more seasoned debate.God Bless you guys:yup:

 

[TNT]

Philthy:

…and Mote is a wetland isn’t it?
Phil

No.
You’re thinking of:
Ditch \Ditch\ (?; 224), n.; pl. Ditches. [OE. dich, orig. the same word as dik. See http://www.dictionary.net/searchbox.php?st=2&query=Dike”]Dike.]

1. A trench made in the earth by digging, particularly a trench for draining wet land, for guarding or fencing inclosures, or for preventing an approach to a town or fortress. In the latter sense, it is called also a moat or a fosse.
   1. Any long, narrow receptacle for water on the surface of the earth.

Source: Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Old Castles had moats around them with draw bridges to keep out the riff-raff.
I seen it on the TV.

 

[J.R]

I have stated this in past posts and it is just as appropriate here as there; ** most Catholics who leave the church know very little about the Catholic faith 2 weeks prior to their leaving and then 2 weeks after they have left they know everything about the Catholic faith.**

 

[Mickey]

Greetings all. Ani and philthy both make good points. Perhaps there is a slight cultural divide? Toronto sounds like it has it’s act together! Personally, I know many Catholics who go to church every Sunday because they feel that they have to. Yes, we must attend Mass. But not because we have to, but because we want to. Many Catholics feel that if they meet their Sunday obligation, they are saved because they are Catholic. This is truly sad. The religious adult education is available, but many people are too busy to attend. And so they muddle along in their ignorance never realizing the depth and richness of the One True Church. A depth and richness that could teach them amazing truths every day for the rest of their lives. But alas, they are too busy. Then, their evangelical friend introduces them to fellowship 101, and it is as if God has finally been revealed to them. And so they blame the Catholic Church for making them blind for so many years. This breaks my heart.

 

[Mickey]

I know this is off topic, but I don’t feel that it warrants another thread so I apologize ahead of time. It addresses daycare at Church.

I had my two nephews last week for a sleep over. Ages 6 and 7.
They are being raised baptist. I decided to take them to the Byzantine Catholic Liturgy of the Presanctified. Their parents were concerned that they would misbehave because they are accustomed to being wisked off to daycare during the baptist service.

These boys were fascinated by the incense and the bells on the censer; the large beautiful icons of Jesus, The Theotokos, and the saints; The vestments of the priest; The Liturgical movement around the alter; The large crosses; the chanting of the Liturgy; The communion lines.

They were perfect angels for the entire hour. By the end of the Liturgy they were bowing and making the sign of the cross on themselves. We can learn a lot from children. Jesus said, " Let the children come to me"