Former Catholics - Mary worship

[KathleenGee]

Cube,

You have to find truth in history. The books of the Bible were completed with John’s Book of Revelation. So what happened after 90 AD???

 

[YADA]

…My greatest worry is why Mary does not lead us to God, instead she leads us to herself.
On the Contrary, Jesus, though equal with God, exalts God.
Matt:22:36-38: Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and the greatest commandment.
Matt:22:39: And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Matt:22:40: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I do respect that you love Christ - as I do … and appreciate that you are trying your best to live the Christian life - Rest assured - Catholics love Christ and serve Him … we perhaps are just more in tune with the communion of Saints - Our Lord is the God of the living and not the dead …

You say your greatest concern is that Mary does not lead people to Jesus … that is a concern that is IMHO misplaced …

Mary in word and deed leads us to God - to Jesus … From her “yes” to God at the Annunciation to her faithful witness at the foot of the Cross where Jesus gave her to us as our own Mother … she is the first disciple - the most faithful disciple and witness to a life lived in accordance to God’s will for us …

She tells us to “do whatever He [Jesus] tells you” …

When Jesus said that whoever does the will of the Father is His mother and brother - who is it that did the will of God? Mary with her “yes, be it done unto me according to your word” - she is the perfect example of what we are called to be and to do as Christians - as the people of God - as the Church …

I feel very saddened that your early formation was bereft of authentic Christian teaching … one where you were not introduced to the scriptures outside of the Mass - one where your prayer life was superficial at best …

From many of your posts - your interpretation of scripture is still - sadly- very superficial and biased.

 

[YADA]

…My view is based on the bible and the history of the doctrine. According to the Bible, Jesus instituted the Lord’s table as a church practice in His remembrance. He ate the bread and drunk the wine symbolically as his body and blood. The apostles including Mary the mother of Jesus met daily and broke bread together in remembrance of Jesus.
Apostle Paul also taught about the Lord’s table to the churches. A record is in the letter to Corinthians. His teaching is not that Jesus is present in the Eucharist.

Scripture does not teach what you believe it does …No where in the Scriptures does it state that the bread and wine are symbolic - no where … Read John Chapter 6 … Jesus states unequivocally that His Flesh and Blood are real food and real drink - that His flesh is the True Bread … unless we eat and drink of His Body and Blood we will have no life within us … He is not speaking metaphorically or symbolically …

Similarly - St Paul tells the Corinthians that unless they discern the Body and Blood they partake of the Eucharist at their very peril - they eat and drink condemnation … He tell s the people that illness and death comes from eating the Bread and Wine in a sinful state …

Tell me - how can something that is merely symbolic have that consequence ? …

On the link: blessedquietness.com/journal/housechu/transub.htm
…

As for this link … really - you feel you need to post a link to an anti-Catholic bigot with poor scholarship … you just lost a lot of credibility

 

[Richard_Feynman]

Isn’t this whole transubstantiation thing a big Red Herring Fallacy?

 

[KathleenGee]

Well, if you don’t know anything, then what can you add?

 

[KathleenGee]

Cube,

You should get Shane Shaetzel’s book, that addresses all the points coming out of fundamentalist/evangelical misconceptions.

The vast majority of Christians who protest Catholicism have been indoctrinated by misconceptions and actual falsehoods.

Likewise, look at the Catechism and see how completely the faith of the Church is in Christ.

Christ is our literal lifeblood.

 

[Richard_Feynman]

I was trying to say, let’s keep on the subject of Mary. we can start a new thread for transubstantiation if needed, but this one is about Mary.

 

[Richard_Feynman]

If you would like to understand the Eucharist, I recommend Scott Hahn. His explanations are phenomenal and have change my life. Try to read more about Mary, Cube. She is a great person to imitate and no one is telling you that you HAVE to pray to her. I think someone said that, but it’s worth restating. Also according to the Council of Trent (and I’m doing this from memory so please forgive any mistakes) you don’t have to pray or venerate saints. All you have to do is respect that others can pray and venerate the saints.

Richard Feynman

 

[adf417]

I was trying to say, let’s keep on the subject of Mary. we can start a new thread for transubstantiation if needed, but this one is about Mary.

And I’ve been trying to make the correlation of those who consider worship of Mary and the lack of real presence in the Eucharist as a direct factor. It seems to me the view of those who think we Catholics worship Mary stem from the lack of our understanding of worship in the Eucharist which stems from the real presence.

I really believe if someone understood the real presence and how you can worship Jesus beyond any other means in this manner of the Eucharist, “our source and summit”, their view of Mary worship, among other wrong views, automatically diminishes.

Peace!!!

 

[Dorothy]

If you would like to understand the Eucharist, I recommend Scott Hahn. His explanations are phenomenal and have change my life. Try to read more about Mary, Cube. She is a great person to imitate and no one is telling you that you HAVE to pray to her. I think someone said that, but it’s worth restating. Also according to the Council of Trent (and I’m doing this from memory so please forgive any mistakes) you don’t have to pray or venerate saints. All you have to do is respect that others can pray and venerate the saints.

Richard Feynman

No, we don’t “have” to do anything. We have free will.

We are also free to do without washing machines, dryers, electric razors, microwave ovens, computers, etc.

 

[Richard_Feynman]

And I’ve been trying to make the correlation of those who consider worship of Mary and the lack of real presence in the Eucharist as a direct factor. It seems to me the view of those who think we Catholics worship Mary stem from the lack of our understanding of worship in the Eucharist which stems from the real presence.

I really believe if someone understood the real presence and how you can worship Jesus beyond any other means in this manner of the Eucharist, “our source and summit”, their view of Mary worship, among other wrong views, automatically diminishes.

Peace!!!

This makes sense. Thanks for clarifying

 

[Richard_Feynman]

No, we don’t “have” to do anything. We have free will.

We are also free to do without washing machines, dryers, electric razors, microwave ovens, computers, etc.

You are right, in the grand scheme of things, we don’t have to do anything.
“We employ two forms of prayer, differing in the manner of address; for to God we say properly, ‘Have mercy on us, hear us’: to the saints, ‘Pray for us’… the greatest care must be taken by all not to attribute to any other that which belongs to God” – Catechism of the Council of Trent

According to my Catholic Dictionary published by TAN:
“Invocation of our Lady and other saints does not supplant prayer to God, but is by way of reinforcement thereto, as when one asks a friend for help in confirmation pod ones’s own efforts in any matter. Therefore, no Catholic is formally bound pray to the saints; the Council of Trent only requires him to acknowledge that it is “good and useful” so to do. The Mass is, of course, offered to God only and, barring particular exceptions such as the litany of the Saints, the prayers of the liturgy are all addressed to Him directly.”

The latter quote was not from the Council of Trent, just from my Catholic Dictionary.

Richard Feynman

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Thanks for the kind intent for fellowship.

I personally dont doubt some people give inappropriate devotion to Mary. Just like we can idolize sports players, or food, or pets, or vehicles, etc. But it gets more shadowy when it comes to abusing a relationship with Mary. It becomes a frame of heart that we are not worthy of Jesus outside a devotion to Mary. We cannot make her a high Priestess. But we can seek her intercession when in need of recourse to Jesus. This can be a fine line, yet who is led by their anointing from God will be obedient to Him when turning to Mary for assistance. Just as we turn to our pastor and elders for a holy prayer with justified faith that “The prayer of a righteous person has great power in its effects… And covers a multitude of sins.”

Deuteronomy 6:15 ‘(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you)’

Hi ,rcwitness,
As a former believer of Mary as mediatrix,I would now claim no such link is ever seen or shown to be needful :according to the written word that is.
As the writer to the Hebrews States,‘Having therefore, brethren,boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus’(Hebrews 10:19)
If Then ,I was seeking ,as you say ‘recourse to Jesus’ by or in my own person,I no doubt would be in (desperate)need of another advocate to speak on my behalf.
But what I now believe to be the (my) case is, that ,if my passport 'to enter into the holiest ’ is through another,and that by his ‘blood’ then for me ,not to believe in this access, is therefore for me also to deny the efficacy of and the sacrifice involved in the ‘blood’ that was shed.

On my part also ,looking back on my time as a catholic,I would now claim that there seems to me to be a suggestion ,if we need the mother of Jesus to speak on ones behalf,that Jesus himself, is unwilling to give to those who believe his blood was shed for them,the fruits of that which his blood secured for them.But somehow another entrance( into his affections) is needful.would you agree?

I know it is a very sensitive subject for one who,I know,is trying to uphold or magnify a godly women,but can Catholics see how that we who believe ‘everything is ours’ by the blood of the lamb, it would be disrespectful and unbelieving to not believe that it is he who is said 'to be touched with the feelings of our infirmities ’ and go directly to him in person by ‘his blood’?
When her son ascended did not this same Mary, do exactly that?
Then why not now?

 

[PJM]

=Cube2;12071923]To my understanding today, YES! to that time’s understanding NO!
Let me explain; in Catholic there are many objects and people that are honored and venerated. One will never even differentiate whether its worship or not.
These include bowing as you approach the altar, kneeling with the right leg to the tabernacle in the church; saying a prayer to Mary, to the Saints and to Angels.

1. We did a procession of 5 Kms carrying the statue of Mary reciting the rosary.
2. We recited the rosary while kneeling facing a statue of Mary
3. Where there are shrines, there is usually a statue of Mary; people bow and do the sign of the cross when they approach it.

These are practiced even today. To a Catholic its not worship, to a non-Catholic Christian its worship. I hope I have answered your question.

Cube, your hanging around this CAF site why?

Allow me to explain each of your correctly identified actions.

{QUOTE]in Catholic there are many objects and people that are honored and venerated. One will never even differentiate whether its worship or not.

Actually there is NO NEED to as “Worship” is reserved to God alone.ALL prayers end with God.

These include bowing as you approach the altar, kneeling with the right leg to the tabernacle in the church; saying a prayer to Mary, to the Saints and to Angels.?QUOTE]

This IS reverence and honor, and if praying; intercession. NEVER “worship”

1. We did a procession of 5 Kms carrying the statue of Mary reciting the rosary.

1. We recited the rosary while kneeling facing a statue of Mary

Again Reverence, Honor, and respect and Intercession; NOT “worship”.

1. Where there are shrines, there is usually a statue of Mary; people bow and do the sign of the cross when they approach it.

Bowing is a sigh of REVERENCE, NOT “worship” and the sign of the Cross is a connecting Mary and or the saint WITH Christ Action of Dying for us. Intercession.

Perhaps my friend you were never right instructed. ALOT of that going around now.

But the Hail Mary is a Bible BASED Prayer

**Hail Mary, [Lk. 1:28]
Full of Grace [Lk. 1:28]
The Lord is with thee [Lk 1:27]
Blessed are you among all women [Lk 1:42]
And Blessed in the fruit of your womb: Jesus [Lk. 1;42]
Holy Mary [Lk.1: 28]
Mother of God 1:35
Pray for us sinners [our catholic petition]
Now and at the hour of our death
Amen” ****

Also because you may not have been rightly trained, Catholics Pray to [BUT THROUGH"] is a far more accurate term for the following reasons.

Because Mary and the Saints are CONFIRMED to be in heaven [the norm is at least One Miracle independently confirmed so GOD HAS THE FINAL SAY IN IT; the saints, Saints, the Souls in Purgatory [HEAVEN assured but detained to be made perfect. Mt. 5:48 AND all Souls united through the Catholic Church on EARTH, make up the “Communion of saints”. In a sense we are all like family. And like a family should do; we can AID one another.
**
So the Saints and Mary take our prayers and the ADD there own to them, thus increasing there merit and personally present for US to God personally.

My FRIEND, may I humbly suggest you read carefully and prayerfully **Heb .6: 4-7 ** This was written precisely and directly to folks like you, who for WHATEVER reason has chosen to DENY the One true God. The term “impossible” in this VALID teaching means UNLESS one repents and turns BACK to God.

NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE OR FOR THAT MATTER IN MORAL THEOLOGY OR LOGIC IS THERE ANY INDICATION THAT MAN CAN CHOOSE FOR THEMSELVES HOW THEY WILL WORSHIP GOD, OR HOW THERE OWN SALVATION WILL BE ACCOMPLISHED.

BECAUSE THERE IS BUT ONE TRUE GOD
THERE CAN AND IS ONLY ONE SET OF FAITH BELIEFS POSSIBLE
AND GOD DID NOT WAIT SOME 1,200 TO 1,500 YEARS + TO MAKE HIS TRUTH KNOWN.

Poor catecesis is NOT, nor is there ANY sufficient reason in God;s View to abandon HIm and the Only Church He founded, guides and protects. Amen!

I’ll pray for you,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

=Richard_Feynman;12074881]Isn’t this whole transubstantiation thing a big Red Herring Fallacy?

Google “Eucharistic Miracles”

Transubstantiation IS FACT, NOT Fiction

 

[rcwitness]

Deuteronomy 6:15 ‘(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you)’

Hi ,rcwitness,
As a former believer of Mary as mediatrix,I would now claim no such link is ever seen or shown to be needful :according to the written word that is.
As the writer to the Hebrews States,‘Having therefore, brethren,boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus’(Hebrews 10:19)
If Then ,I was seeking ,as you say ‘recourse to Jesus’ by or in my own person,I no doubt would be in (desperate)need of another advocate to speak on my behalf.
But what I now believe to be the (my) case is, that ,if my passport 'to enter into the holiest ’ is through another,and that by his ‘blood’ then for me ,not to believe in this access, is therefore for me also to deny the efficacy of and the sacrifice involved in the ‘blood’ that was shed.

On my part also ,looking back on my time as a catholic,I would now claim that there seems to me to be a suggestion ,if we need the mother of Jesus to speak on ones behalf,that Jesus himself, is unwilling to give to those who believe his blood was shed for them,the fruits of that which his blood secured for them.But somehow another entrance( into his affections) is needful.would you agree?

I know it is a very sensitive subject for one who,I know,is trying to uphold or magnify a godly women,but can Catholics see how that we who believe ‘everything is ours’ by the blood of the lamb, it would be disrespectful and unbelieving to not believe that it is he who is said 'to be touched with the feelings of our infirmities ’ and go directly to him in person by ‘his blood’?
When her son ascended did not this same Mary, do exactly that?
Then why not now?

What I believe to be the ‘Hidden Manna’ of the Catholic Devotion to Mary is NOT that we need her to present us to Jesus because we are unworthy. That is the man Jesus Christ.

The Church has a devotion to the heart of Mary, which was given the fullness of grace through the merit of her Son Jesus. We believe the Church, through its apostolic ministry, speaks on behalf of Christ, and did so when declaring the Truth that Mary remained ever faithfull in the grace she was given. She was holy in a unique way fitting for being offered to all Christians, because she believed what was told to her about the Saviour, and thus that same Saviour commited her motherhood to the Apostle at the end of His earthly life, and the beginning of the life His Mystical Body. and she willingly gave her heart to Jesus and His sacrifice to all who might believe on Him, as the prophet spoke, “And a sword shall pierce your heart”!

This sword pierced her heart because she opened it up to the love of Jesus, which is the mark of her participation in the portion of ministry she was given.

Now, my recourse in Mary is the same recourse I have to all those who accept and suffer their cross against sin, for the sake of Christ. When I pray for her recourse I am acknowledging my betrayal to my mother also. And likewise, when I go to Reconciliation, I acknowledge my sin against His Mystical Body, the Church. This is the profound union we have to one another and one another all in Him. This is how He could say to Saul, “Saul, why do you percecute me?” and “Whoever does these to the least of my brethren, he does it to Me.” Therefore, also we recognize our annointed leaders to be ‘in the Person of Christ’ just as Paul Taught.

Jesus acknowledged this depth of brotherhood all through Scripture. James Teaches about the prayers of a righteous person having the power to cover many sins. You tell me how he can Teach this??? Why does one need to confess their sins to those in good standing???

James is recognizing the recourse we have in our brotherhood!

Or answer me this, Did not Paul have recourse to God through Stephen’s prayer???

This recourse I see as wisdom in Christ is based on the bond and oneness Catholic Teaching recognizes through faithfull Communion in His Eucharist.

 

[Jerbear]

Grew up being taught that she was incredibly special, hand-picked by God to bring Jesus into the world, and it is important to acknowledge her place and to pray to her, but no not worship.

 

[KathleenGee]

Richard, there are many Catholics who receive but do not believe in the Eucharist.

About Mary worship, that is the red herring.

The other night I noted 2,865 points of faith in the universal Catholic Catechism, the defining deposit of our faith and belief.

Mary is in the catechism. But there is not one statement of faith stating we worship Mary. And of the 2,865 points of faith, 40 direct to Mary but in the following context, likewise stated in the Catechism. Going back to the point of the Eucharist in my previous post,

CCC487 states: What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illuminates in turn its faith in Christ.

One must experience the Eucharist, True Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the state of grace, grow in the Eucharist through the Word and Sacrament, study authentic spirituality and the sacred mysteries.

Statement CCC491: Through the centuries the Church has become every more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God, (Lk 1:28) was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception finally declared in 1854. Mary ‘was preserved immune from all stain of original sin.’

When we grow in the Lord, we become likewise, more and more sensitive to sin and virtue, and the movement of the Holy Spirit vs that of sin and the flesh. Same with the Church. She grew in wisdom over the ages through the contribution of countless saints and believers, as well as testimonies of the Virgin’s help and prayers for members of the Church.

One thousand eight hundred and fifty four years is no shot gun dogma made up overnight on whimsy.

So the Catholic Catechism has two thousand eight hundred sixty five points of faith, 40 of them relate to Mary but in context to Jesus Christ.

So if the Church does not worship Mary, does not see her as an idol then, what indeed does the Church believe is worship? Who does the Church worship and how???

 

[KathleenGee]

So if Catholics do not worship Mary, then how do they worship?

Through the celebration of the liturgy, which once meant public work or ‘service in and behalf of the people’. CCC1070: New Testament word ‘liturgy’ refers not only to divine worship but the proclamation of the Gospel and the call to active charity. Here we witness the action of Christ as Priest and of his Body, which is the Church…No other action of the Church can equal its efficacy by the same title and to the same degree.’

CCC1074: "The liturgy is the summit toward the activity of the Church is directed; it is the font from which all her power flows…

CCC1075: Liturgical catechesis aims to initiate people into the mystery of Christ…mystagogy…by proceeding from the visible to the invisible, from the sign to the thing signified, from the sacraments to the mysteries…’

The Liturgy is the work of the Holy Trinity. Our first calling as Catholics is to enter into the life of the Holy Trinity and then second, to love God and our neighbor as ourselves.

The Heavenly Father is the goal of liturgy. CCC1082: In the Church’s liturgy the divine blessing is fully revealed and communicated, the Father…the source and end of all blessings of creation and salvation. In his Word who became incarnate, died and rose for us, he fills us with his blessings. Through His Word, he pours into our hearts the Gift that contains all gifts, the Holy Spirit.’

From parts of CCC1083: On the other hand, 'the Church, united with her Lord and ‘in the Holy Spirit’ blessed the Father for his inexpressible gift in her adoration, praise, and thanksgiving. On the other hand, until the consummation of God’s plan, the Church never ceases to present to the Father the offering of his own gifts and to beg him to send the Holy Spirit on that offering, upon herself, upon the faithful, and upon the whole world, so that through communion in the death and resurrection of Christ the Priest, and by the power of the Spirit, these divine blessings will bring forth the fruits of life ‘to the praise of his glorious grace’, Ephesians 1:6.

I could go on and on about liturgy but will add more here.

CCC1084. “Seated at the right hand of the Father” and pouring out the Holy Spirit on His Body which is the Church, Christ now acts through the sacraments he instituted to communicate his grace…’

CCC1085. 'In the liturgy of the Church, it is principally his own Paschal mystery that Christ signifies and makes present…His Paschal mystery is a real event that occurred in our history, but it is unique: all other historical events happen once, and then they pass away, swallowed up by the past. The Paschal mystery of Christ, by contrast, cannot remain only in the past, because by his death because by his death he destroyed death, and all that Christ is – all that he died and suffered for all men – participates in the divine eternity, and so transcends all times while being made present in them all. The event of the Cross and Resurrection ABIDES and draws everything toward life.

And in Catholic Sunday worship of the Holy Trinity, CCC1090: ‘In the earthly liturgy we share in a foretaste of that heavenly liturgy which is celebrated in the Holy City of Jerusalem towards which we journey as pilgrims, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God, Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle. With all the warriors of the heavenly army we sing a hymn of glory to the Lord; venerating the memory of the saints, we hope for some part and fellowship with them; we eagerly await the Savior, Our Lord Jesus Christ, until he, – our life–( my emphasis), shall appear and we too will appear with him in glory.’

Mary was conceived without sin and did not suffer the wages of sin. We can only assume she was glorified with the Lord on her passing from this earth to heaven, and likewise we will be glorified in the Lord, those who persevere in Him and also for those who know the advocacy of the Blessed Mother in her great help in leading us to Christ.

No, Catholics do not worship Mary.

 

[Cube2]

So, because you did not open your bible at home as a family, you were unable to open your heart to the Bible being read at Mass, therefore you didn’t believe in Jesus until you read the Bible at home?

The point is only a small section of scripture is read during mass. When you attend mass, you get many verses in bits because there is the 1st reading, the Psalms & the Gospel. At the end of a period, eg a month, you have many small bits of scripture.
For one to gain full benefit of the Word, it would be good to read for himself/herself and understand more. This is what I meant.
It was not a common practice, and its not a common practice even today.

On the other point, its not about believing in Jesus, its about knowing Jesus and having a strong relationship with him.