Former Mormon "de-conversion" stories

[sablouwho]

Sorry, couldn’t resist. No. Mary …gave birth to the Savior. [snipped]

About the only thing Joseph Smith and Mary have in common is that both are human creatures.

I think you misunderstand Atticus’ post, the way I read it, he (?) is not at all saying that JS is equivalent to Mary, but rather is merely pointing out that LDS **focus **a lot of attention on JS in a similar manner to the way Catholics focus a lot of attention on Mary.

May I respectfully ask that if there is going to be a major discussion of this idea, that a new thread be started? I am really hoping that there will be more discussion of the stated topic of this thread. You see, I had a very, um, “interesting” time when I was an LDS investigator and while I don’t want to be LDS, I am still trying to make sense of the experiences I had with them.

Thanks for your understanding!

 

[AaronPaul]

I was born/raised Mormon and left at 17 or 18 years old and went back about 15 years ago. When I went back as an adult I eventually became an Elders quorum president, branch president councilor, young men’s president, went to the temple and got “sealed” and did all the other things a good Mormon does. After a few short years I got fed up and burned out and just faded away. At the beginning of Lent 2008 I asked my wife (cradle Catholic turned Mormon turned back to Catholic) to go to a local Congregational Church. She deeply missed the Catholic church and asked if we could try it again. I had been to Catholic high school, Catholic baptisms, marriages and Masses over the years with no desire to learn more. Being the good husband, I agreed to try the Catholic church once more. I haven’t missed a Sunday Mass since that day. My wife had her first marriage annulled and we both went through RCIA for a year. Then last year on the Tuesday night of holy week we got a call from our priest that the annulment had been granted. After the Friday night Mass he married us and I entered the TRUE church with baptism, first communion and confirmation and my wife was able to receive communion for the first time in about 20 years.

During the time I was going through RCIA I would constantly be comparing Mormon to Catholic and eventually tossed my BofM in the trash. At one point, I went to a local bookstore and on the clearance table was a big book that showed every Pope and gave info about each one. That really impressed me to see that history and every once in a while I’ll still pull out that book and read about a few Popes.

I really enjoyed the friendships in the Mormon church but those soon disappeared after I stopped going. I didn’t enjoy seeing a dozen children baptised every week only to never see them again two weeks later. Also, at one point when my wife and I were going through the different ceremonies in the temple we looked at each other and almost bust out laughing. I think that going to the temple was a real turning point for both of us.

What do I enjoy about the Catholic church? The list is too long to list everything but let’s start with the Eucharist, confession, the church buildings, the rosary, caring friends and clergy and all the accessories. I used to think the Mormons had the corner on teaching aids, books, pictures, etc in the Mormon bookstores but found they have nothing compared to us Catholics.

I could go on and on but I’ll end this by saying that we’re both very happy to be active members of the TRUE church. I am now a lector and she’s a EMHC and director of religous education in our Parish.

Peace,

AaronPaul

 

[Tmaque]

Tmaque,
I keep “leaving” this forum, having come here as it were by being led to find a place where people are getting a lot of mis-information even from the official part of what is said about LDS beliefs, let alone the blog threads, and finding that I could at least bring some balance and more light to people totally in the dark about LDS beliefs based on what they had as sources.

After I “leave,” I receive another impression that “there are people who can benefit from your going back” and so I go back. It has nothing to do, ever, with puzzling over the differences between being guided by the Holy Spirit individually versus the kinds of assumptions made about a church and its people never being allowed to choose against purity of knowledge and purity of truth. Then, too, even a slight change in direction by one person, can lead to a different destination much further down the road of life–so I have the impression that those slight changes in direction have been worth the time to hope perhaps such a change can happen in someone’s life–not a dramatic change at all, just a less caustic view of LDS and their “peculiar” beliefs.

Whatever the reason, I’m glad you’re here.

 

[zerinus]

I think you misunderstand Atticus’ post, the way I read it, he (?) is not at all saying that JS is equivalent to Mary, but rather is merely pointing out that LDS **focus **a lot of attention on JS in a similar manner to the way Catholics focus a lot of attention on Mary.

May I respectfully ask that if there is going to be a major discussion of this idea, that a new thread be started? I am really hoping that there will be more discussion of the stated topic of this thread. You see, I had a very, um, “interesting” time when I was an LDS investigator and while I don’t want to be LDS, I am still trying to make sense of the experiences I had with them.

Thanks for your understanding!

Sorry, we do not “pray to” nor “venerate” Joseph Smith, as Catholics do Mary; although we regard him as a great prophet, in much the same way that the Jews might regard Moses to be their greatest prophet.

 

[sablouwho]

Sorry, we do not “pray to” nor “venerate” Joseph Smith, as Catholics do Mary; although we regard him as a great prophet, in much the same way that the Jews might regard Moses to be their greatest prophet.

FWIW, I did not claim that LDS pray to or venerate JS, I only said that there is a focus on him, similar to (but not exactly the same as) the way Catholics focus on Mary. I experienced this focus on JS first hand when I was an investigator. BTW, I experienced the LDS focus on JS to be different than the way Jews regard Moses.

HOWEVER…I will REPEAT my request that this issue be discussed in a different thread, as it is off topic and doesn’t relate to the topic of the thread. Would those reading this post please consider being so kind as to do that?

 

[AtticusFinch]

Sorry, we do not “pray to” nor “venerate” Joseph Smith, as Catholics do Mary; although we regard him as a great prophet, in much the same way that the Jews might regard Moses to be their greatest prophet.

I was LDS. I was a missionary. I was in the Elder’s Quorum Presidency. I was in the Bishopric. I know how LDS feel about Joseph. They sing hymns to him. They “Praise the Man”. They say that Joseph is praying for them and that Joseph will help determine who is judsged.

That is far more than we expect of The Blessed Virgin. We ask Her to pray for us, much like LDS who are certain Joseph is praying for them.

Yeah…it is much the same…

 

[sablouwho]

Thank you for sharing your story, Tmaque, I have a few follow up questions if you don’t mind–please only answer if you feel comfortable.

After my mission I started going to college and was confronted with the notion of seeking truth using reason. After studying sociology, biology, geology, etc, etc, it became apparent that my reason and my faith were at odds. Among the big items were:
*Reconciling the historicity of Genesis and the Book of Mormon with my reason
*Biological evolution
*Age of the earth
*Religious evolution

Interesting. Was this perhaps in part because of the LDS tendency to understand scripture literally? If so, do you think you might have been able to remain in the church if you were allowed to believe things in a less fundamentalist manner?

The experiences I had while coming into the Church were undeniably “spiritual” and left me with no doubt about God’s will for my life.

Would you say that these experiences were of a different nature than the ones you had when you were LDS?

 

[Tmaque]

Thank you for sharing your story, Tmaque, I have a few follow up questions if you don’t mind–please only answer if you feel comfortable.

Interesting. Was this perhaps in part because of the LDS tendency to understand scripture literally? If so, do you think you might have been able to remain in the church if you were allowed to believe things in a less fundamentalist manner?

Would you say that these experiences were of a different nature than the ones you had when you were LDS?

It was absolutely due to LDS literal view of all scripture. I’m certain that I would have not left the church if there would have been a way for me to understand some of the OT and all of the BOM as allegorical rather than literal. I find some LDS now have such an understanding of certain parts of the Bible, however they all still hold that the BOM is historical, which to me, is simply impossible.

The spiritual experiences I had as an LDS were/are not even close to my spiritual experiences as a Catholic. During my conversion experience there were several times I was physically overcome (lost all physical strength), by an unbelievable feeling of utter love. Words can’t describe this. All the more striking because when they started I was still agnostic in my belief, although more open to the possibility of God. I was not praying for, nor expecting any sort of thing like this.

My baptism was the most joyous, transcending experience of my life. Even surpassing the birth of my first son, which I thought was the epitome of pure joy and peace. There were other amazing things that took place that would take too much space and time to tell here.

As a Mormon I had a testimony, I had a "burning in my bosom, I had a relationship with God. As a Catholic my life has been radically reoriented toward God. I still stumble and I am weak. But the goal is clearly in sight and my eyes remain fixed upon it. I have found my God, I have found His church, I am home.

 

[zerinus]

FWIW, I did not claim that LDS pray to or venerate JS, I only said that there is a focus on him, similar to (but not exactly the same as) the way Catholics focus on Mary. I experienced this focus on JS first hand when I was an investigator. BTW, I experienced the LDS focus on JS to be different than the way Jews regard Moses.

I wasn’t suggesting that you had. I was merely commenting on your post.

HOWEVER…I will REPEAT my request that this issue be discussed in a different thread, as it is off topic and doesn’t relate to the topic of the thread. Would those reading this post please consider being so kind as to do that?

Not at all; but when people make incorrect statements about Mormonism (as Atticus has done below), I would like to respond to it.

I was LDS. I was a missionary. I was in the Elder’s Quorum Presidency. I was in the Bishopric.

None of that means a thing if your statements about Mormonism are incorrect, which they are.

I know how LDS feel about Joseph. They sing hymns to him. They “Praise the Man”.

We have a couple of hymns that relate to Joseph Smith. One of them starts with, “We thank thee O God for a prophet”. That is a prayer of thanks to God for the raising a prophet in the last days. It is about God, not Joseph Smith. The other one starts with the words, “Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah”. That also is ultimately a hymn of praise to God rather than to Joseph Smith. Joseph is deemed worthy of praise because he “communed with Jehovah,” not because he has some intrinsic quality of his own. The praise thus ultimately goes to Jehovah, not to him.

They say that Joseph is praying for them and that Joseph will help determine who is judsged.

I don’t recognize that as a familiar teaching of Mormonism. We believe that all Church members who have died in the faith and are among the righteous in the spirit world have an interest in us who live on earth, and there are unseen ways in which they can assist us in the fulfillment of our righteous desires. There is nothing special about Joseph Smith in that. But we don’t “pray” to them, and certainly not to Joseph Smith.

That is far more than we expect of The Blessed Virgin.

Not true!

We ask Her to pray for us, much like LDS who are certain Joseph is praying for them.

Assuming what you say is true, how are those two “alike”?

Yeah…it is much the same…

Not true! Wide apart I am afraid.

 

[ParkerD]

I was LDS. I was a missionary. I was in the Elder’s Quorum Presidency. I was in the Bishopric. I know how LDS feel about Joseph. They sing hymns to him. They “Praise the Man”. They say that Joseph is praying for them and that Joseph will help determine who is judsged.

That is far more than we expect of The Blessed Virgin. We ask Her to pray for us, much like LDS who are certain Joseph is praying for them.

Yeah…it is much the same…

AtticusFinch,
That’s a bit interesting–I’ve been in similar callings, but never once have heard nor thought that “Joseph is praying for [any of us at all].” True enough that Joseph Smith has keys that relate to the priesthood on the earth and the sealing ordinances having been restored, and thus he has a role in assisting the original twelve apostles (less Judas Iscariot) in their role as judges of the house of Israel as taught by the Savior, but he has been seen in dreams as an extremely busy man in the spirit world. I have the feeling that my father-in-law is praying for his daughter (my wife) from time to time from his position in the spirit world watching her and our children and his other posterity, and that my mom would have occasion to pray for me and for her posterity also from her “vantage point”–but I have never once thought any church leader at all is “praying” for me or us, unless to pray generally that we “keep the Spirit” and “keep the faith.”

So, I would say that you don’t “know how LDS feel about Joseph.” You certainly know “how you felt about Joseph” but that is the extent of what you could say in all honesty, and be accurate.

All the best to you in the choices you have made. They are fine as far as I’m concerned–but that doesn’t make you an authority about LDS feelings and thoughts. (Nor am I, but I know my own, and I’m in not out.)

 

[AtticusFinch]

AtticusFinch,
That’s a bit interesting–I’ve been in similar callings, but never once have heard nor thought that “Joseph is praying for [any of us at all].” True enough that Joseph Smith has keys that relate to the priesthood on the earth and the sealing ordinances having been restored, and thus he has a role in assisting the original twelve apostles (less Judas Iscariot) in their role as judges of the house of Israel as taught by the Savior, but he has been seen in dreams as an extremely busy man in the spirit world. I have the feeling that my father-in-law is praying for his daughter (my wife) from time to time from his position in the spirit world watching her and our children and his other posterity, and that my mom would have occasion to pray for me and for her posterity also from her “vantage point”–but I have never once thought any church leader at all is “praying” for me or us, unless to pray generally that we “keep the Spirit” and “keep the faith.”

So, I would say that you don’t “know how LDS feel about Joseph.” You certainly know “how you felt about Joseph” but that is the extent of what you could say in all honesty, and be accurate.

All the best to you in the choices you have made. They are fine as far as I’m concerned–but that doesn’t make you an authority about LDS feelings and thoughts. (Nor am I, but I know my own, and I’m in not out.)

Yes, I know what was said in testimony meetings. I know what I was taught at the MTC. I kinow what I sang in hymns.

So, yes…I know.

 

[aspirant]

being Jewish and having started out my Christian journey in a Protestant setting, you can hopefully imagine that when I found out what the Protestant belief was about salvation, well, it disturbed me. Because according to them, most of my family/ancestors would be in hell. And considering that some of them were terrified of Christianity because of they way they had been treated, and because of this found the God of Christianity to be the God of their persecutors, I felt that the Protestant belief was grossly unfair. If God was really like that, it made him, IMO, a monster.

Ugh. Understandable.

 

[sablouwho]

Ugh. Understandable.

Thanks…and I forgot to add, this is also a reason why Catholicism was attractive too. It seemed less black and white than the "“saved/unsaved” view that I encountered in evangelical circles.

 

[aspirant]

we do not “pray to” …Joseph Smith, as Catholics do Mary; although we regard him as a great prophet, in much the same way that the Jews might regard Moses to be their greatest prophet.

FWIW, the comparison to Judaism is not entirely apt here, since Chasidic Jews, like Catholics, do “beseech the intercession” of tzaddikim (righteous ones) who have died.

In the 19th century, Rabbi Moshe Shik was asked about this question: if a Jew is not permitted an intermediary, how can he ask another Jew to pray for him? Rabbi Shik answered that it is possible because the Jew does not feel he is praying for an “other” but praying for himself. All Jews are, in this view, considered as one body. If the toe is hurting, it needs the head and the heart to help it. And Rabbi Shik further elaborated that this extends to tzaddikim who have died: they too are members of the Jewish body.

This Chasidic reasoning is fundamentally compatible with our Catholic understanding of saintly intercession in Christ. Our faith in the communion of saints is also based on the belief that members of Christ are one Body, and that we need one another.

I will REPEAT my request that this issue be discussed in a different thread, as it is off topic and doesn’t relate to the topic of the thread.

Sorry. I’ll stop.

I forgot to add, this is also a reason why Catholicism was attractive too. It seemed less black and white than the “saved/unsaved” view that I encountered in evangelical circles.

We have hope that all may be saved.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

We have a couple of hymns that relate to Joseph Smith. One of them starts with, “We thank thee O God for a prophet”. That is a prayer of thanks to God for the raising a prophet in the last days. It is about God, not Joseph Smith. The other one starts with the words, “Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah”. That also is ultimately a hymn of praise to God rather than to Joseph Smith. Joseph is deemed worthy of praise because he “communed with Jehovah,” not because he has some intrinsic quality of his own. The praise thus ultimately goes to Jehovah, not to him.

This is without a doubt the lowest I’ve ever seen your dishonesty stoop in these fora, Zerinus. Your argument that God is some how indirectly honored through veneration of Joseph Smith suspiciously sounds like hyperdulia… you know, the term we Catholics use to explain why veneration to Mary is allowed since as the Theotokos, the “God bearer” veneration to her is vicariously passed to the cause of her veneration: Jesus Christ her son, yet you stand here obstinantly insisting that Marian devotion borders on idolatry while what the LDS do with Smith is just peachy keen. By the way, I have never heard a Mormon claim that the hymn Praise to the Man is about God rather than Joseph Smith, likely because anyone with a basic command of the English language can see for themselves that the hymn has only Joseph Smith as its object:
LDS Hymn #27:

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah! Jesus anointed that Prophet and Seer. Blessed to open the last dispensation, Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

(Chorus): Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven! Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain. Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren; Death cannot conquer the hero again.

Praise to his mem’ry, he died as a martyr; Honored and blest be his ever great name! Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins, Plead unto heav’n while the earth lauds his fame.

(Chorus)

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood. Ever and ever the keys he will hold. Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom, Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

(Chorus)

Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven; Earth must atone for the blood of that man. Wake up the world for the conflict of justice. Millions shall know “Brother Joseph” again.

(Chorus)

Let’s not forget that the older versions of this hymn included other verses, some of which called for vengeance on the state of Illinois among other gruesome things. To be honest with you Z, even as a practicing Mormon I didn’t much care for this hymn and anytime I heard it it always rubbed me the wrong way as it so clearly seems to place a very exaggerated sense of devotion on a mere mortal.

So really Z, would you like to try this again?

In this hymn Joseph Smith (not God, but Joseph) is said to:

• be extolled and revered,
• intercedes on behalf of living Mormons (see the chorus),
• demand vengeance for his spilled blood,
• actually have proprietaryship of the priesthood (i.e. it’s “Joseph’s priesthood” not Jesus’ priesthood),
• have proprietaryship over Heaven (e.g. "Faithful he will enter his kingdom),
• be crowned in Heaven,
• have sacrificed on behalf of the Church,

with this in mind, is it still your position that this is nothing like Catholic Mariology?

 

[xixxvmcm85]

To the original poster:

I have a funny suspicion that our recent e-mails back and forth helped prompt this thread In any case, you already have my conversion story, and I’m surprised to see that the catalyst for me was the same as it was for Tmaque. I lost faith in Mormonism long before I ever found faith in Catholicism as the driving force was coming back from my mission, and embarking on a scientific discipline of study.

I notice some folks are talking about parts of their Mormon experience that they miss, or thought were virtuous and are sadly lacking in their experience of Catholicism. For me, this would have to be a sense of uniqueness as a separated people. Latter-day Saints far better fit the bill of the peculiar people spoken of in Deuteronomy and later reiterated by Jesus. And all throughout life we were constantly reminded of our “peculiar” status, which I think made living the faith a bit easier. Unfortunately I think Catholicism specifically, and Christianity in general, have lost this sense of not being of the world likely due to necessity since coming to be the majority religion I think demands that the religion become some what worldly. Maybe this isn’t the case for Catholics in parts of the world in which Christianity is a rarer phenomenon. Sub-Saharan Catholics or Catholics in China likely live the faith much closer to how the 1st century martyrs did while us Western Catholics take much of it for granted.

 

[Stephen168]

I was completely atheistic at first, then quickly became a confirmed agnostic. Once agnostic, I decided to say a little prayer every day (just in case). This prayer was simply “God, if you’re there, please guide my life”. He did. It took almost two decades, but he did.

One day, sitting at a stop light, I had this brilliant thought that I didn’t have to believe in God at all. It was on the most freeing moments in my life, that I remember well. It was just a huge relief to stop this struggle about God and just let it go.

Would you say that most born and raised Mormons become atheists; opposed to converting to another religion, when they find out that Mormonism is not true?

 

[AtticusFinch]

Thanks for posting the hymn. It only proves what I have said.

But, it is not the fault of LDS, they are followjng a man who claimed he had done more the Church than even Jesus Himself…

 

[ParkerD]

Yes, I know what was said in testimony meetings. I know what I was taught at the MTC. I kinow what I sang in hymns.

So, yes…I know.

If you’re talking about the hymn “Praise to the Man”, then whenever I sing that hymn I realize that it was written by W W Phelps, whose actions actually led to imprisonments of Joseph Smith when he left the LDS church at one point in his life, yet when he returned to ask forgiveness from Joseph he was told “yes, let us be friends once more.” Joseph Smith was not bitter, although having been in horrible, dismal conditions for four months.

W W Phelps thus had a tremendous sense of honor for Joseph Smith, the man. He sensed his integrity, and his compassion. He also happened to like to write hymns, so he wrote that hymn after the prophet was killed by a heartless mob.

You undoubtedly don’t think that “kings” extol him or that “nations revere.” But we are still in the early transition period before the Millenium, and leaders of nations have extolled the LDS approaches to humanitarian needs and will probably continue to do so as humanitarian needs happen in the world, but the word “nation” can be a symbolic term such as “an extended multi-generational family” or “a community of believers” or “a million people gathered together”, and there are those who do honor Joseph Smith’s integrity and faith such that they “revere” his name just like my family “reveres” the name of “George Washington” and “Thomas Jefferson”. Revere can mean “have gratitude for the mission on earth of …”

The LDS view is that God is in charge of how He has planned the unfolding of the gifts of knowledge given to humankind on earth. To reverence that unfolding process is not to diminish from the Giver of the knowledge. It is to honor the Giver as well as to acknowledge the need for the recipient of the knowledge to have asked for the knowledge by seeking inspiration from Heaven.

One can gain insight by placing a hymn into its historical setting, but some people choose not to do that and choose to poke fun at the sincerity of others’ expressions of gratitude to God.

 

[zerinus]

This is without a doubt the lowest I’ve ever seen your dishonesty stoop in these fora, Zerinus. Your argument that God is some how indirectly honored through veneration of Joseph Smith suspiciously sounds like hyperdulia… you know, the term we Catholics use to explain why veneration to Mary is allowed since as the Theotokos, the “God bearer” veneration to her is vicariously passed to the cause of her veneration: Jesus Christ her son, yet you stand here obstinantly insisting that Marian devotion borders on idolatry while what the LDS do with Smith is just peachy keen. By the way, I have never heard a Mormon claim that the hymn Praise to the Man is about God rather than Joseph Smith, likely because anyone with a basic command of the English language can see for themselves that the hymn has only Joseph Smith as its object:

Let’s not forget that the older versions of this hymn included other verses, some of which called for vengeance on the state of Illinois among other gruesome things. To be honest with you Z, even as a practicing Mormon I didn’t much care for this hymn and anytime I heard it it always rubbed me the wrong way as it so clearly seems to place a very exaggerated sense of devotion on a mere mortal.

So really Z, would you like to try this again?

In this hymn Joseph Smith (not God, but Joseph) is said to:

• be extolled and revered,
• intercedes on behalf of living Mormons (see the chorus),
• demand vengeance for his spilled blood,
• actually have proprietaryship of the priesthood (i.e. it’s “Joseph’s priesthood” not Jesus’ priesthood),
• have proprietaryship over Heaven (e.g. "Faithful he will enter his kingdom),
• be crowned in Heaven,
• have sacrificed on behalf of the Church,

with this in mind, is it still your position that this is nothing like Catholic Mariology?

I still stand by what I said. That hymn honors Joseph Smith because he “communed with Jehovah”. Joseph Smith receives honor from his association with Jehovah, not the other way round. I also like what Parker has said. That hymn was written by W. W. Phelps, who apostatized from the Church for a time, and bore testimony against the Church, and was instrumental in bringing a lot of persecution against the Church and especially against Joseph Smith. But when he repented and came back and asked for forgiveness, Joseph Smith readily forgave him and received him back as a friend. As a result of that experience Phelps developed such a great love for Joseph Smith that he wrote that hymn in his praise, and it has become a Church classic. But as far as I am concerned, it honors “Jehovah” more than Joseph Smith.