Former Mormon "de-conversion" stories

[lax16]

Thanks for the plug TheosisM and Zaffiroborant.

Here is a *Salt Lake Tribune *article on my research:
wildernesschristianity.net/info/LDS/The-Cross.html

And a podcast interview that I did for Mormon Expression:
mormonexpression.com/?p=274

Here is pic of my forthcoming book’s cover (designed by John Hamer):
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4036/4264292708_cb917c5112.jpg

For those who may live in southern CA, I will participate in a panel discussion about my book (with scholars D. Michael Quinn, Robert Rees, and Newell Bringhurst) at the *Sunstone West Symposium *(Claremont Graduate University) March 26-27.
sunstonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/SW10-Claremont-final-11x17-Edits-as-of-3-12-EOB.pdf
I will also a paper at the *Restoration Symposium *in Independence Mo., April 8-9.
jwha.info/meetings/scheduleRSS10.asp

I wonder how this will affect us here in Utah. I have heard of several instances of children being harrassed for wearing a cross as earrings or around their neck.

Do you think your research will shed new light on the true meaning of the cross to the LDS of today?

 

[Mike_Reed]

I wonder how this will affect us here in Utah. I have heard of several instances of children being harrassed for wearing a cross as earrings or around their neck.

Do you think your research will shed new light on the true meaning of the cross to the LDS of today?

LDS readers who assume that the Mormon custom (for rejecting the cross) has revelatory/doctrinal basis, might reconsider. They will likely be surprised to learn that the common aversion to the cross has an anti-Catholic basis, and was a rather late development in Mormon history. The aversion to the cross didn’t emerge until around the turn of the 20th century, and wasn’t institutionalized until the 1950s. Prior to this time, many Latter-day Saints embraced and promoted the symbol. For example, in 1916 the Church petitioned the SLC council to erect a cross monument (to honor the Mormon pioneers) on Ensign Peak. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other Church leaders accepted/used the symbol. Spencer W. Kimball even saw a cross (which he believed was a sign from God) that assured his mind that he was chosen and called to serve as an apostle in the Church. And many early Saints viewed the pre-Columbian cross as evidence validating the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. My book will also include an appendix that debunks a common argument made by LDS apologists (ie. because early Christians didn’t embrace the cross, Mormons don’t either).

Not to toot my own horn… but I suspect that a lot of Catholics and Mormons will find my book worth reading.

 

[lax16]

LDS readers who assume that the Mormon custom (for rejecting the cross) has revelatory/doctrinal basis, might reconsider. They will likely be surprised to learn that the common aversion to the cross has an anti-Catholic basis, and was a rather late development in Mormon history. The aversion to the cross didn’t emerge until around the turn of the 20th century, and wasn’t institutionalized until the 1950s. Prior to this time, many Latter-day Saints embraced and promoted the symbol. For example, in 1916 the Church petitioned the SLC council to erect a cross monument (to honor the Mormon pioneers) on Ensign Peak. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other Church leaders accepted/used the symbol. Spencer W. Kimball even saw a cross (which he believed was a sign from God) that assured his mind that he was chosen and called to serve as an apostle in the Church. And many early Saints viewed the pre-Columbian cross as evidence validating the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. My book will also include an appendix that debunks a common argument made by LDS apologists (ie. because early Christians didn’t embrace the cross, Mormons don’t either).

Not to toot my own horn… but I suspect that a lot of Catholics and Mormons will find my book worth reading.

I hope your book can help bring all believers in Christ to recognize the cross as a universal symbol of Christianity. I look forward to reading your book - what an interesting topic for a thesis. Thanks!

 

[catholic-rcia]

Howdy Mike

I am in Northern Utah and I make Crosses and crucifixes. When you have a good grasp, the message of the Cross it is a good place to start when speaking to the LDS. I have had quite a few say to me while touring our Church “ seems like the Catholics focus more on the Death of Christ than the resurrection.
Read this Mike
** Total Trust**
utahmission.com/pages/Shame%20of%20the%20Cross.html

Gives me a chance to speak about how wrong this thought is, that it all goes together. This one question opens so many doors for them, things they did not think about. were never taught. When you can get them to open up to some of their own suffering, even get them to admit their own sinful nature, the cross grabs them. But is it sad to see them leave after. Because you won’t to tell them so much more about Why the Crucifix…why suffering…etc… It’s the message of the Cross that pierces hearts.
So Central to a Christian. Jesus was born to die, His mission for us was to die. Even the gifts given to Him as a baby were for His buriel…amazing stuff.

Why do Catholics admire the Cross?

The Cross is the greatest symbol for all Christians. Satan hates the cross and the Mass because they are perpetual reminders of his defeat. The Cross in the Catholic Church, with Christ in his agony reminds us of our sin, what we have done, what we have failed to do, and what Christ has done for us. We ask the Church, all the saints and angels to pray for each of us to the Lord our God. That Crucifix shows us how much our God loves us by laying down His life for us. By pouring out His love and mercy to all who come face to face with their own sin, He teaches us forgiveness. The Cross teaches us humility, which is the opposite of pride. It reminds us of who Christ is, and who we are. “Jesus came to pay a debt He didn’t owe, because we owed a debt we couldn’t pay” - Unknown. (Lk. 9:23-25, Col. 2:14, Eph. 2:16, Col. 1:21-23, Mk. 10:21)

www.chooseyourcross.com

Rich
www.utahmission.com

 

[thomasf]

Is there any group that works the de-convert mormons? Or literature I can give to mormons to make them look at the questions of that faith honestly?

 

[twopekinguys]

Is there any group that works the de-convert mormons? Or literature I can give to mormons to make them look at the questions of that faith honestly?

Try checking out this website.

hotm.tv/

 

[Mike_Reed]

Is there any group that works the de-convert mormons? Or literature I can give to mormons to make them look at the questions of that faith honestly?

Yes. There are lots of organizations out there that attempt to de-convert Mormons. Most of them, however, rely on sensationalism and misinformation. If your desire is to have a meaningful dialogue with Mormons, it is important to understand that the central issue is priesthood authority and modern revelation. Catholics may have success in exposing how Mormon claims to priesthood succession is problematic. The down side to such attacks, however, is that Mormons have accessible equally problematic info against the Catholic Church to tap into, if they feel the need to counter attack. So rather than attempt to deconvert Mormons, I would suggest that you first try to expand your understanding of Mormonism, and their history. Richard Bushman’s Rough Stone Rolling is a great book (written by a believing Mormon)… and for something a little more juicy (but equally scholarly), I’d suggest D. Michael Quinn’s two volumes, *Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power *and Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power. All three of these books are humungous, and are absolutely packed with information. While reading, try to connect with Mormon culture, and try to understand them as accurately as possible. You may also find searching the official website LDS.org helpful. They have a ton of information published online that you can read for free. Some of it is white washed, but at least you will be able to understand where they are coming from. Do these things and you will be in a great position to participate in interfaith dialogue with Mormons, and possibly even convert some to Catholicism, if they are unsatisfied Mormonism. If they are not unsatisfied with their faith, there probably isn’t much you can do.

 

[why_me]

This is not an assumption, its truth. Christianity is of the Most Holy Trinity… Christ is the Catholic Church, His body, we being members of His Body. Protestants believe in the same God we do, the same Jesus. It is because of the 2000 year old Mass that they have the same beliefs. They accept the Apostles Creed weather they want to admit that it came out of the Catholic Church or not. I do not have a problem if they don’t…they are still my brothers and sisters in Christ.
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Here is the problem as I see it. Your definition of christianity is stated above and it is shared with many other christians, except the part about the catholic church. Protestants would disagree with you.

Being a christian is not about the apostles creed but it is about believing christ to be the son of god and our saviou and living god’s word. Many christian sects are far from living god’s word. I refer to the more liberal protestant sects here regardless if they believe in the trinity or in the apostles creed. I know that the luthern church in Europe is deeply divided about issues of morality. And the anglicans also. I can not see god being pleased with either one of those churches regardless of the apostles crreed etc.

Mormons in general have a very traditional chrisitan moral code. They have not departed from that code. Nor do they encourage the embracing of moral relativism and the idea of going with the flow. Mormons lead very christian lives and accept Christ as their savior and they attempt to live the words he preached. Thus, they are christians.

 

[why_me]

Not to toot my own horn… but I suspect that a lot of Catholics and Mormons will find my book worth reading.

Nice to see you here Mike.

I think that when it comes to catholicism one needs to remember the crucifix of christ that it attached to the cross. Many protestant sects do not show the crucifixtion of christ on the cross. And here we have a departure of some protestant sects from catholicism. The catholic church almost always has christ dying on the cross hanging inside their church. Many protestant churches may have the cross but not the dying christ. And even some protestant preachers do not accept the dying christ on the cross because for them, it symbolized death and not the living christ.

I can not see the early mormons rejecting the cross because of catholicism since protestants also rejected the crucified christ on the cross being shown inside their churches. . But I can see mormons rejecting the crucifixtion on that cross and then eventually, the cross itself as a christian symbol for them to use. .

 

[why_me]

I wonder how this will affect us here in Utah. I have heard of several instances of children being harrassed for wearing a cross as earrings or around their neck.

Children will be children. But I can almost be certain that their parents do not encourage their children to harass other children who wear the cross. You make it sound like children who wear crosses are bullied across Utah. And hearing is not exactly seeing.

 

[why_me]

Is there any group that works the de-convert mormons? Or literature I can give to mormons to make them look at the questions of that faith honestly?

The Mormon church is small in number but the people that hate the Mormon church are large in number. There are more antimormon sites on the internet as there are grains of sand on a beach.

Can you recommend for me any anticatholic websites that I can recommend to catholics so that I can deconvert them and to help them look at questions of that faith honestly?

Mike was correct in his response to you. But that will take a lot of thought for anyone to do. And I am afraid that the people on this forum do not have the desire or time to engage mormons on that level.

 

[mariahloves]

Being a christian is not about the apostles creed but it is about believing christ to be the son of god and our saviou and living god’s word.

Part of being Christian is believing Christ to be the One True God. If you believe God the Father is also the One True God, then you must accept the Trinity. It is part of Christian belief.

 

[why_me]

Part of being Christian is believing Christ to be the One True God. If you believe God the Father is also the One True God, then you must accept the Trinity. It is part of Christian belief.

Accepting the trinity does not make one a christian. To be a christian is to be active in living and promoting the word of god and proclaiming christ as saviour. One can accept the trinity and live a very ungodly life. But can that person be called a christian? A christian is a follower of christ. I have not read in the new testament where the early members were called christians. They were called saints, however.

 

[Michael_Vernon]

Read Acts 11:26 to see where first century saints were first called Christians.

Of all the fundamental doctrines of Christianity, perhaps the one with which Mormons have difficulty most often is the Trinity, because they are taught to think of God very concretely. They have no difficulty believing that there are many, many gods and goddesses; but it absolutely eludes them how there could be Three Divine Persons of the same Divine Essence.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Accepting the trinity does not make one a christian. To be a christian is to be active in living and promoting the word of god and proclaiming christ as saviour. One can accept the trinity and live a very ungodly life. But can that person be called a christian? A christian is a follower of christ. I have not read in the new testament where the early members were called christians. They were called saints, however.

Have you spent time reading about the Saints here at Catholic Answers?
We are all called to be Saints. We are all called to die to oursleves.

This would be wrong, your quote above. Not because I am saying it is wrong. 2000 years of Christianity tells us this. You have to accept God Why Me in order to be a Christian. Anything less would not be God, not the Father, not the Son, not the Holy Spirit. It would be accepting something else other than God. It may look very good, act good. But there is so much more to it.

When you accept Christianity you accept the Holy Trinity (God) , when you accept the Holy Trinity you are accepting Christianity… This is inseparable. When a Christian proclaims Christ as Savior a Christian is proclaiming the Holy Trinity. One can do good things all of their lives, but without accepting the Holy Trinity, one may not hear Christ’s voice, it may be drowned out by what appears to be family. I tell a story about death, that I see my loved ones, those that I have lost in this life right over a small grassy hill, all of them so happy, filled with joy to be seeing me again.

I myself am also filled with joy as I see all of them once again, calling me to be embraced. Then right before I run to them I see Jesus to my right, not to far off into the distance. He is helping a small bloodied lamb who has been caught in a barbed wire fence. He looks up to me and I here him say “come to me” I look back at my mother who I lost when I was eight years old, I see my grandparents who loved me, who raised me. My Uncle Frank and Aunt Harriet. My cousin Leland who died at twelve, my younger brother who lost his life in a truck at 16, my nephew Jeremy who also died in a tragic accident at 24…I see them all, yet Jesus is calling me to him. As much as I want to run to my family I walk to Jesus. As I get closer He moves towards me, he runs to me and embraces me and I feel the joy of heaven. I look towards my mother who I have yearned for, so many years without her. But she is gone, they are all gone. As I turn my head back to Jesus I see all of them again, right behind Him. I look back to where they all stood just a moment ago and I see darkness whisper away. It was in Jesus that I found them all.

Because Jesus is God, all things were created by Him, for Him, through Him, all things. You see Why Me God is love, and in the Godhead is relationship. The Father throughout all of eternity has loved the Son, the Son throughout all of eternity has loved the Father. This love is the Holy Spirit. As created beings, we are gifted a share in this love, what the Holy Trinity has always shared. We do not possess this Holy Gift. Only God does (TRINITY) . We are not the center of anything, God is. When you can see God as this special, yourself as not so special Jesus becomes more special in your life. Thus it is because of Jesus that you or I are special in the eyes of God.

You are able to see your fallen nature more clearly, why so much sin in the world, why we need God to be at the very center of our lives. Why Jesus, our God came and died for you and I. Learn what it means to die to self, in order to be raised in Christ. This will help.

I went to confession Tuesday night. I confessed that I do not take enough quiet time to be with God, that in the past year I have gossiped, I have told lies, I have not been patient enough with my children, I missed Mary’s feastday etc… when I left the confessional I left those sins behind me. I heard Jesus speak through His Priest, that my sins have been absolved. But the best part of that night was after my wife came out with tears of joy, and we went into the chapel, knelt and prayed side by side.

This is Christianity at its best. When you know you are a failure and Jesus constantly picks you back up and tells you how much you are loved by Him. When you are not a failure, when you do great things you know it is Jesus, you point towards Him.

Because a Christian knows where all good works come from. Without Trinity you might be tempted to think they come from you. And this is the fall of all of us….mankind.

 

[sablouwho]

Here is the problem as I see it. Your definition of christianity is stated above and it is shared with many other christians, except the part about the catholic church. Protestants would disagree with you.

Being a christian is not about the apostles creed but it is about believing christ to be the son of god and our saviou and living god’s word. Many christian sects are far from living god’s word. I refer to the more liberal protestant sects here regardless if they believe in the trinity or in the apostles creed. I know that the luthern church in Europe is deeply divided about issues of morality. And the anglicans also. I can not see god being pleased with either one of those churches regardless of the apostles crreed etc.

Mormons in general have a very traditional chrisitan moral code. They have not departed from that code. Nor do they encourage the embracing of moral relativism and the idea of going with the flow. Mormons lead very christian lives and accept Christ as their savior and they attempt to live the words he preached. Thus, they are christians.

Honestly, I think what it means to be a Christian depends on who you ask. From a Jewish perspective, people who believe in Jesus are thought of as Christian. Catholics and Protestants tend to be more credal in their view of who is a Christian. C.S. Lewis makes a GREAT point in his book “Mere Christianity”, (I am greatly summarizing here) which is that the words “Christian” and “good” and NOT synonyms.

This makes sense, because there are a lot of Jews I know who are most definitely NOT Christian, yet they live moral lives that are in harmony with Christian values (because they are really Judeo-Christian values). And I can think of atheists and agnostics and members of other faith traditions who live very moral lives as well.

So I am not really sure that living a traditional Christian moral code is sufficient for making one a Christian since there are too many examples of non-believers in Christ who fit that description.

 

[Mike_Reed]

Nice to see you here Mike.

Thanks why me. Nice to see you too.

I can not see the early mormons rejecting the cross because of catholicism since protestants also rejected the crucified christ on the cross being shown inside their churches.

I don’t think I’m understanding your post correctly. Sorry. It is hard to know if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing. Are we in agreement that early Mormons didn’t explicitly reject the symbol of the cross? Are we in agreement that early american protestants rejected the cross primarily because they associated the symbol with Catholicism?

As you may know… some historians (before my research) assumed that Mormon attitudes toward the symbol mirrored contemporary protestant attitudes. It turns out, however, that there is a kind of inverse relationship. Early mormons accepted the symbol when protestants largely did not. By the time mormons started rejecting the symbol, mainstream protestants accepted it. Mormons then reached back and recycled the arguments promoted by protestants generations before.

But I can see mormons rejecting the crucifixtion on that cross and then eventually, the cross itself as a christian symbol for them to use. .

My book primarily focuses on the symbol of the cross. But if you can find any negative statements (prior to 1880) speaking out against the crucifix, I’d love to read them.

On a side… you may find this quote interesting:

“When he [Zebedee Coltrin] saw Him [Jesus] in the Kirtland Temple, on the cross His hand (sic) were spiked to the wood, and he had around him what appeared like a sheet.”
Salt Lake City School of the Prophets Minute Book, Internally Paginated.

 

[thomasf]

The Mormon church is small in number but the people that hate the Mormon church are large in number. There are more antimormon sites on the internet as there are grains of sand on a beach.

Can you recommend for me any anticatholic websites that I can recommend to catholics so that I can deconvert them and to help them look at questions of that faith honestly?

Mike was correct in his response to you. But that will take a lot of thought for anyone to do. And I am afraid that the people on this forum do not have the desire or time to engage mormons on that level.

This isn’t a thread about former catholics, it’s a thread about former mormons and what made them question their faith. I’m sure you can find lots of jack chick publications to help you elsewhere.

And I wasn’t asking for anti-mormon literature. I was asking for the stuff that people read that made them reconsider their faith. This is a thread full of former mormons, imo it’s a pretty good place to ask that question.

I’m not anti-mormon. I almost became a mormon at one point. I have mormons that work for me, they are good people. But I have a good friend who is mormon that tells me that he qestions his faith. He converted to marry his wife. IMO that’s why he sticks with it. I would like to be able to give him something that discussed the inconsistencies and errors in the lds religion.

 

[why_me]

This isn’t a thread about former catholics, it’s a thread about former mormons and what made them question their faith. I’m sure you can find lots of jack chick publications to help you elsewhere.

And I wasn’t asking for anti-mormon literature. I was asking for the stuff that people read that made them reconsider their faith. This is a thread full of former mormons, imo it’s a pretty good place to ask that question.

I’m not anti-mormon. I almost became a mormon at one point. I have mormons that work for me, they are good people. But I have a good friend who is mormon that tells me that he qestions his faith. He converted to marry his wife. IMO that’s why he sticks with it. I would like to be able to give him something that discussed the inconsistencies and errors in the lds religion.

Most of the literature against the lds church would be considered antimormon. And this is the problem with literature for questioning lds. The balance is always skewed. Mormonism has always been a polarizing religion. It began at its inception and continues to this day. The websites that are linked to this site that deal with mormonism can be considered antimormon because of the way information is presented. To find a site or literature that presents the mormon faith in a balanced way that has been written by a nonmormon or a former mormon is hard to come by.

The literature that I have come across on the web is highly slanted but it will certainly do the trick for anyone who is questioning the mormon faith. However, give him Rough Stone Rolling by Bushman and see what happens.

 

[why_me]

Thanks why me. Nice to see you too.

I don’t think I’m understanding your post correctly. Sorry. It is hard to know if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing. Are we in agreement that early Mormons didn’t explicitly reject the symbol of the cross? Are we in agreement that early american protestants rejected the cross primarily because they associated the symbol with Catholicism?

.

In a previous post, you stated that the mormons rejection of the cross was primarily do to anticatholicism. But I believe that this would be untrue. The cross within catholicism has always been connected with the crucifixtion. It is difficult to come across a cross within catholicism that does have the crucifixtion on it.

The mormons did reject the crucified cross but not because of catholicism or not because they were anticatholic. The cross was still part of early mormon culture mainly because the converts brought the cross with them and to my knowledge the early converts were mainly protestant. And as such, they may have had lingering anticatholic feeling rooted in WASP culture at that time but the crucified cross may have already been rejected by the early converts because of their connection to protestantism.

I question the anticatholic reason in your previous post. I think that the rejection of the cross happened over a period of time as the belief began to change into a more living christ. Call it folkore or fact but the reason for the rejection of the cross still stands: Mormons do not have the cross because it represents a dying christ, whereas in the lds faith christ’s resurrection is more stressed but no more valued than the crucifixtion itself.

It is all in the symbolism.