Former Priests

[Irishgal49]

Just because you are angry at being single, doesn’t mean every one is. Priest answer a call to the priesthood. They know they agreeing to be single. This isn’t thrust on them at the last moment.

But don’t you think more men would become priests if marriage was allowed? I pray that this is changed.

 

[TiggerS]

But don’t you think more men would become priests if marriage was allowed? I pray that this is changed.

We can’t know the future. Certainly married men can become deacons and maintain conjugal relationships with their wife. Our married deacons are invaluable to our priesthood in the duties they can take off the priest’s very long list of duties - and deacons are an ordained state in life with duties they can perform as deacons. My previous parish had an outstanding in every way married deacon and a hard worker for the parish with a dedicated and wonderful wife as well. His children had grown and left home and with their own stable vocations.

The Church in Her Superior Wisdom guided by The Holy Spirit for the good of the faithful and all mankind has clearly stated that the Latin Rite Catholic priesthood will remain a celibate state in life. It is not in ‘small print’ and a ‘hidden clause’ for applicants to our priesthood. Nowadays I would think that Catholics and non Catholics alike and all members of other religions as well, as well as all others that read etc the media, are all very well aware that the Latin Rite Catholic priesthood is a celibate state in life and for life.

One of the indications that a man has a vocation to the priesthood is that he is also given the gift of celibacy for the seven or eight years he is in training - before ordination - and then for the rest of his life. If a person is having problems with celibacy, I would think (and not necessarily the facts) that he would have some sort of problem with the celibate chaste state during those seven or eight years he is a student for the priesthood and prior to his ordination. If he does have problems, then he needs to speak up to authority privately about it and perhaps even come to the realization that he is not called to the priesthood.

We can get caught up in our secular culture and society and be somewhat forgetting that The Lord is in this with us all the way in every way. Our God of miracles - and The Mass and The Sacraments are miracles we live with almost daily to my mind - and for one group of miracles only. Holy Orders, The Catholic priesthood, is a Sacrament. We can start to adopt thinking that is “of this world” and becoming (or actually already is) embedded in our culture and society, the majority, and faithful Catholicism becoming almost, or already, a minority group perhaps who are counter-cultural to their own culture and society, their neighbours. And the majority who have little or no understanding of our Catholic Faith.

 

[TiggerS]

At times I have read something secular giving commentary on something or other Catholic - and I have thought to myself “That secular comment is completely logical and reasonable” - until I recall (and hopefully always will) that The Church is guided by The Holy Spirit in the footsteps of Jesus and to the Glory of The Father. “Behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world”. “And I will give to thee the Keys of The Kingdom of Heaven and whatsoever thou shalt bind upon the earth, it is bound also in Heaven - and whatsoever thou shalt loose on the earth, it is loose also In Heaven” - stunning and awesome words indeed from Jesus to His Church and a complete and total guarantee that He always will be with The Church and without fail.

The Church intially had no political power nor actual wealth whatsoever, and often it was a severely persecuted Church by the political powers of the day. Then along came Constantine and the greatest political power of his day who declared that the whole Roman Empire was to be Catholic - and so The Church gradually attained wealth and political power. That was a point in our history and our history rolls on to where, we do not know for sure. But we do know for sure that Jesus will never ever desert His Church no matter what happens and that daily every single day and every second of every single day He is with us in Grace.

 

[HisIsTheCrown]

Let us put things in perspective.
Do you realize that most pedophilia scandals happened many, many years ago and the priests are old. And the priests who left in hordes it was many years ago?

The Seminaries were filled with people without any vocation at all. Faithful and priests wanted to gather as many “vocations” as possible because priests were one degree below God.

Then they left not because of a woman but because they had no vocation at all. some who had no vocation stayed and there it goes the scandals of priests.

Now seminaries are more open, th students enter at a mature age and not as kids, it is different.

 

[TiggerS]

Let us put things in perspective.
Do you realize that most pedophilia scandals happened many, many years ago and the priests are old. And the priests who left in hordes it was many years ago?

The Seminaries were filled with people without any vocation at all. Faithful and priests wanted to gather as many “vocations” as possible because priests were one degree below God.

Then they left not because of a woman but because they had no vocation at all. some who had no vocation stayed and there it goes the scandals of priests.

Now seminaries are more open, th students enter at a mature age and not as kids, it is different.

I don’t know to which post you are responding, sorry, nor why you feel that ‘things’? may be out of perspective:

In my post here, I do make mention of to what you refer at least in part: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9477790&postcount=43

Extract only from my post, link above : In the case of priest he would have a support system of some kind somewhere, or can seek same and/or he could ask to be laicized because he is not coping with the celibate state of life asked by his priesthood. The celibate chaste state as a way of life asks psychological maturity and one would anticipate in hpe this of one who had gone through the seminary system (or noviciate). The psychologically mature recognize when they are in some kind of trouble, and it can happen anywhere in life and be of any kind of problem, and seek assistance and advice.
I think, however, that possibly those who entered a seminar or even noviciate pre V2 certainly, may not have had the evidenced psychological and spiritual level of maturity asked prior to ordination and/or final vows nowadays. This was a mistake but not culpable as back then I think that the importance of psychological and spiritual maturity was not understood as we do today.

I think admitting to oneself that one does have a very real problem and then seeking counselling or advice from sound sources takes a level of humility as well as general psychological and spiritual maturity. We are human and faulted and problems can develop in life and at any point (none are immune) and wisdom (and humility) along with psychological and spiritual maturity clearly informs when the time has arrived to seek help and to do so.

 

[feed_me]

It’s quite different since no man approaches the Catholic priesthood, most particularly that of the Latin Church, without the understanding that the discipline of celibacy comes as part of what is expected of him.

So what about the Eastern Rite? They are still part of the one Holy Catholic Church, have been and always will be.

The Church in Her Superior Wisdom guided by The Holy Spirit for the good of the faithful and all mankind has clearly stated that the Latin Rite Catholic priesthood will remain a celibate state in life. It is not in ‘small print’ and a ‘hidden clause’ for applicants to our priesthood. Nowadays I would think that Catholics and non Catholics alike and all members of other religions as well, as well as all others that read etc the media, are all very well aware that the Latin Rite Catholic priesthood is a celibate state in life and for life.

Again, same as above.

One of the indications that a man has a vocation to the priesthood is that he is also given the gift of celibacy for the seven or eight years he is in training - before ordination - and then for the rest of his life. If a person is having problems with celibacy, I would think (and not necessarily the facts) that he would have some sort of problem with the celibate chaste state during those seven or eight years he is a student for the priesthood and prior to his ordination. If he does have problems, then he needs to speak up to authority privately about it and perhaps even come to the realization that he is not called to the priesthood.

There are a lot of people that are called to the Priesthood that are Married right now, but cant do it because of that rule, and there are a lot of single people that are called to priesthood who God didn’t give the gift of Celibacy to.

At times I have read something secular giving commentary on something or other Catholic - and I have thought to myself “That secular comment is completely logical and reasonable” - until I recall (and hopefully always will) that The Church is guided by The Holy Spirit in the footsteps of Jesus and to the Glory of The Father. “Behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world”. “And I will give to thee the Keys of The Kingdom of Heaven and whatsoever thou shalt bind upon the earth, it is bound also in Heaven - and whatsoever thou shalt loose on the earth, it is loose also In Heaven” - stunning and awesome words indeed from Jesus to His Church and a complete and total guarantee that He always will be with The Church and without fail.

Now let me break this down:

“behold I am with you all days, even to the end of the world”

Matthew 28:20.

That means that God is with us in a married state of single state, or in whatever we do in life.
The scripture has nothing to do with giving up marriage for a life of singleness.

“And I will give to thee the Keys of The Kingdom of Heaven and whatsoever thou shalt bind upon the earth, it is bound also in Heaven - and whatsoever thou shalt loose on the earth, it is loose also In Heaven”

Mathew 16: 19

That scripture has everything to do with priests being able to forgive others, and themselves. Still nothing to do with Marriage or single state of life.

 

[maryjk]

But don’t you think more men would become priests if marriage was allowed? I pray that this is changed.

I think more men would become husbands if they could have sex with other women. That doesn’t mean I think the Church should throw out the Commandment about sleeping around.

I pray for more vocations. I pray for the intentions of priests, but no, I am not praying that they can be married.

 

[FCEGM]

So what about the Eastern Rite? They are still part of the one Holy Catholic Church, have been and always will be.

What about the Eastern Rite? That wasn’t part of your comparison of priestly celibacy being like a hidden clause in one’s phone contract. In my response I specifically mentioned only the Latin Rite which does have the discipline of priestly celibacy (which candidates for the priesthood know full well) which is the point of your erroneous comparison. The Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church have a different discipline which doesn’t negate the discipline of the Latin Rite.

If you want to study the issue at a deeper level, I recommend Cochini’s The Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy, Ignatius Press.

 

[feed_me]

What about the Eastern Rite? That wasn’t part of your comparison of priestly celibacy being like a hidden clause in one’s phone contract. In my response I specifically mentioned only the Latin Rite which does have the discipline of priestly celibacy (which candidates for the priesthood know full well) which is the point of your erroneous comparison. The Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church have a different discipline which doesn’t negate the discipline of the Latin Rite.

If you want to study the issue at a deeper level, I recommend Cochini’s The Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy, Ignatius Press.

And when I mention the Latin Rite, I am talking about the rule that shouldn’t of been there in the first place. God calls a person no matter where they are at to serve him, weither it be the priesthood or not. If God himself wants a married man to be a Priest in the Latin Rite, he will do it and make it come about if he so chooses to.

Now when we look at the scriptures closer, Jesus or St Paul nor any of the apostles in there epistles said that to serve God that you had to be celibate. To use Mathew 19: 12(btw it also says in 19 12 that some cannot accept this) or Corinthiens to say make a rule to make everybody celibate to serve God is to manipulate the scriptures to someones own will. 2 peter 3: 16. Just like I could also say that 1 Timothy 3: 1-13 actually talk about what the qualities to be a bishop are, and they do mean actually being physically married with physical kids and being a Priest(pastor). 1 Timothy 3: 5 “If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?” Now back to 1 Corinthiens btw 1 Corinthiens 7:1-40 talks about free choice to do as needed, either way it is free choice. Just because it says that some might do better not being married doesn’t mean that others will, and that those who can’t should marry.

Please forgive me if I come of as angry or any way offencive, I do not mean it in my words.

 

[FCEGM]

And when I mention the Latin Rite, I am talking about the rule that shouldn’t of been there in the first place.

Well, that’s your opinion, but whether you think the discipline should be there or not wasn’t the issue you raised with your erroneous comparison and so wasn’t addressed by me.

God calls a person no matter where they are at to serve him, weither it be the priesthood or not. If God himself wants a married man to be a Priest in the Latin Rite, he will do it and make it come about if he so chooses to.

Obviously He has already called some married men who were originally ordained as Episcopalians to be ordained as priests of the Church in the Latin Rite; God acts, though, through His Church which must ratify such a call and has made an accommodation for these exceptions to the present discipline.

Now when we look at the scriptures closer, Jesus or St Paul nor any of the apostles in there epistles said that to serve God that you had to be celibate. . . [etc.]

St. Paul simply says that those who are bishops must not be polygamists; he says nothing about the absolute necessity of bishops being married period.

The discipline of celibacy is a fitting one prefigured in the practice of the priests in service at the Temple of Jerusalem. Because they were to offer sacrifice to God at the Temple they (in the rotation of their priestly duty) practiced sexual fasting during the time of their service. We see this at the beginning of St. Luke’s gospel when he presents us with the account of Zachary and Elizabeth and the conception of John. So it is quite biblical to practice sexual continence, the celibate priesthood living that out fully in witness to the celibacy of Christ Himself Who is both Priest and Victim - Christ’s own celibacy is what you keep leaving out of the equation.

The Twelve were living celibate when they left their families to follow Our Lord and so were living with and like Him. Moreover, the Apostolic Offices of the Twelve was the highest office of the Church, which the Episcopal offices comes closest to but not equal to. The continence required of bishops followed the Twelve’s vocation to live totally for the Kingdom, as Our Lord says in Matthew 19 that some are eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom.

At first this did not mean separation from one’s wife, but only separation from conjugal sex; this normally would not be a problem, since priests and bishops, and even deacons were chosen from the elders, i.e., those whose children were already raised.

The Church has always allowed couples who had no responsibilities towards offspring or others to mutually separate and enter religious life. In the first period of the Church when spirituality was higher than later (first 300 years) this was not so unusual and the Church following the practice of the Apostles as well as their example chose priests and deacons from among these spiritually mature elders, who though not separating from their wives who needed their financial and social support before such things as monasteries, lived like brothers and sisters with regard to sex. A great example of this in the West is St. Nicholas of Flue: after a prolific marriage, he and his wife spent the last 20 years in continence and he was blessed with prophecy and even living only on the Eucharist (15th century, I believe).

Further, while in the early Church there were many married bishops, even married Popes, we see that this was not always the case; in fact, if you look at the writing St. Ignatius you see that he names the first bishops of 4 major Episcopal sees: Rome, Antioch, Ephesus and Crete. In listing them, he says that the first men appointed to be bishops of the sees of Rome (Clement), Antioch (Evodius, then St. Ignatius of Antioch), Ephesus (St. Timothy, then John, the Beloved Disciple) and Crete (Titus) were all celibate men, and then Alexandria (St. Mark).

For a fuller understanding of Scripture and the early Church on this issue I again recommend the book I spoke of in my previous post.

Please forgive me if I come of as angry or any way offencive, I do not mean it in my words

Of course.

 

[feed_me]

Well, that’s your opinion, but whether you think the discipline should be there or not wasn’t the issue you raised with your erroneous comparison and so wasn’t addressed by me.

Fair enought I’ll take it up with that person. forgive me

Obviously He has already called some married men who were originally ordained as Episcopalians to be ordained as priests of the Church in the Latin Rite; God acts, though, through His Church which must ratify such a call and has made an accommodation for these exceptions to the present discipline.

Thank you for that knowledge, but again some people are called to be priests but don’t have the gift of celibacy. What then?

St. Paul simply says that those who are bishops must not be polygamists; he says nothing about the absolute necessity of bishops being married period.

True about the polygamy, but your stilll missing the full point of the scripture.

The discipline of celibacy is a fitting one prefigured in the practice of the priests in service at the Temple of Jerusalem. Because they were to offer sacrifice to God at the Temple they (in the rotation of their priestly duty) practiced sexual fasting during the time of their service. We see this at the beginning of St. Luke’s gospel when he presents us with the account of Zachary and Elizabeth and the conception of John. So it is quite biblical to practice sexual continence, the celibate priesthood living that out fully in witness to the celibacy of Christ Himself Who is both Priest and Victim - Christ’s own celibacy is what you keep leaving out of the equation.

Still didn’t mean celibacy had to be the norm today when all the priests had to do was just do a day or 2 of fasting then return back to there wives(meaning 1 wife per priest).

The Twelve were living celibate when they left their families to follow Our Lord and so were living with and like Him. Moreover, the Apostolic Offices of the Twelve was the highest office of the Church, which the Episcopal offices comes closest to but not equal to. The continence required of bishops followed the Twelve’s vocation to live totally for the Kingdom, as Our Lord says in Matthew 19 that some are eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom.

And he also said that some cannot accept it. Doesn’t mean that they still couldn’t serve.

At first this did not mean separation from one’s wife, but only separation from conjugal sex; this normally would not be a problem, since priests and bishops, and even deacons were chosen from the elders, i.e., those whose children were already raised.

Again, fast for a day or 2 then return to your wife. Not put a heavy yoke that somebody cannot bear to carry. Even Jesus condemned it with the scribes and Pharisees Matthew 23: 1-40 and the exact scripture for the yoke is Matthew 23: 4(btw it means past, present, and future. This involves Catholics, and Protestants alike.). Again God still calls people to the Priesthood and doesn’t give them the gift of Celibacy or make them take a vow.

The Church has always allowed couples who had no responsibilities towards offspring or others to mutually separate and enter religious life. In the first period of the Church when spirituality was higher than later (first 300 years) this was not so unusual and the Church following the practice of the Apostles as well as their example chose priests and deacons from among these spiritually mature elders, who though not separating from their wives who needed their financial and social support before such things as monasteries, lived like brothers and sisters with regard to sex. A great example of this in the West is St. Nicholas of Flue: after a prolific marriage, he and his wife spent the last 20 years in continence and he was blessed with prophecy and even living only on the Eucharist (15th century, I believe).Further, while in the early Church there were many married bishops, even married Popes, we see that this was not always the case; in fact, if you look at the writing St. Ignatius you see that he names the first bishops of 4 major Episcopal sees: Rome, Antioch, Ephesus and Crete. In listing them, he says that the first men appointed to be bishops of the sees of Rome (Clement), Antioch (Evodius, then St. Ignatius of Antioch), Ephesus (St. Timothy, then John, the Beloved Disciple) and Crete (Titus) were all celibate men, and then Alexandria (St. Mark).

For a fuller understanding of Scripture and the early Church on this issue I again recommend the book I spoke of in my previous post.

Of course.

 

[edward_george]

However it is undoubtedly a life against nature

Actually, voluntary priestly celibacy is not a life against nature in the least, anymore than any supernatural calling is opposed to nature. Rather, grace perfects nature, and when men are called to live celibately for the sake of the kingdom of God, they are aided by grace in this endeavor and that generative, fatherly love which should form and shape any man’s desires, regardless of his vocation, is raised to a higher purpose. Where the biological father orders his natural fatherly desires to the begetting and raising of children, the spiritual father’s desires are ordered toward spiritual fatherhood, toward the begetting and raising of spiritual children. It is not a contradiction of our nature to embrace celibacy, but rather a different ordering of it.

-ACEGC

 

[TiggerS]

Now let me break this down:
Matthew 28:20.
That means that God is with us in a married state of single state, or in whatever we do in life.
The scripture has nothing to do with giving up marriage for a life of singleness.
Mathew 16: 19
That scripture has everything to do with priests being able to forgive others, and themselves. Still nothing to do with Marriage or single state of life.

You have misunderstood and no problem whatsoever with me, it happens. Perhaps my wording was confusing. My post to which you are referring is here forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9482185&postcount=58

"And I will give to thee the Keys of The Kingdom of Heaven and whatsoever thou shalt bind upon the earth, it is bound also in Heaven - and whatsoever thou shalt loose on the earth, it is loose also In Heaven" **
Mathew 16: 19… ( Matthew 16 : [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.[19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.)**

**“behold I am with you all days, even to the end of the world” **
Matthew 28:20.

What I am saying through quoting from Matthew as above is that The Church has the power from The Lord to make rules and to change rules (priestly celibacy is one [disciplinary] rule only) - and that Jesus will be with us, His Church, until the end of time and Jesus is God.

In the Canon Law of The Church (laws made by The Church), private vows are covered. I am free to make choices for my life. If I choose to be single and because I am aware of an invitation from God to remain in the lay celibate chaste state in life and under private vows - and for the sake of The Gospel - then I am free to do so and have done so. I need keep the obligations laid out in Canon Law for Private Vows. Thirty years of commitment to this state in life and with its ups and downs, joys and problems, up a creek (as it were) and then back again states that God of His Mercy has granted The Grace of perseverance to this way of life and undeterred by failures or problems, sorrows, challenges nor detraction. And a quite happy life - if at times run off my feet!

 

[TiggerS]

After His Resurrection, the power of forgiveness of sins :

John Ch 20
drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=20&l=23#x

[21]** He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins** you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained

The power of making and changing rules (as quoted in my previous post) comes earlier in the Gospel and before the Death of Jesus. Jesus asks His apostles who they think that He is. Peter answers: “Thou art The Christ, The Son of The Living God”.

** Matthew 16** : " And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."

What has all this to do with the priesthood and marriage, the single celibate lay state? All are covered by Laws of The Church (which The Church has Divine Authority to make and change) as well as statements by The Church in various Documents.

 

[TiggerS]

Quoting feed me:

Thank you for that knowledge, but again some people are called to be priests but don’t have the gift of celibacy. What then?

With The Grace and vocation to Holy Orders, the Catholic [Latin Rite] priesthood, comes the Grace of celibacy. The Grace of celibacy is part and parcel of the actual vocation. The seven or eight years in seminary training and in the celibate chaste state should give a student indication of where he may stand in regards to chaste celibacy.

Can we all, priests included, be unfaithful to Graces granted - yes. Can we be unfaithful to vows - yes and this includes marriage vows for the married, religious vows for religious and the consecrated and private vows for those in private vows. Does this mean that unfaithfulness, broken vows, indicates a lack of the vocation - not necessarily. It may, or it may not.

If a man feels a call to the priesthood but has trouble with celibacy, then his feeling of a vocation from God may not be so but perhaps from his own personal desires for some reason. Not at all unusual in the seminary or a noviciate for a student or novice to discover that what they thought was a vocation was actually an investment in their own desires of some kind and not necessarily a negative desire - just incorrectly addressed.

 

[feed_me]

Thank you very much for that. I overlooked that scripture in John when I quoted you. I forget about John meaning what it did and matthew 16: 19 meaning what it did. I got them mixed. A mistake on my part. I do see clearer now.

 

[FCEGM]

[feed me;9484014]. . .True about the polygamy, but your stilll missing the full point of the scripture.]

Not at all; nowhere does St. Paul indicate that it is demanded that only married men may be priests; he simply says that married men must have only one wife. Thus we have different disciplines arising from that, East and West. With the East having only celibate Bishops - and also having monastics who are, of course, celibate. This article more fully addresses St. Paul’s meaning:

catholic.com/tracts/celibacy-and-the-priesthood

Still didn’t mean celibacy had to be the norm today when all the priests had to do was just do a day or 2 of fasting then return back to there wives(meaning 1 wife per priest).

OTC, Christ being celibate (and not from happenstance) certainly shows the fittingness of this admissable norm of discipline for the Church.

Again, fast for a day or 2 then return to your wife. Not put a heavy yoke that somebody cannot bear to carry. Even Jesus condemned it with the scribes and Pharisees Matthew 23: 1-40 and the exact scripture for the yoke is Matthew 23: 4(btw it means past, present, and future. This involves Catholics, and Protestants alike.). Again God still calls people to the Priesthood and doesn’t give them the gift of Celibacy or make them take a vow.

OTC, His Church, as has already been addressed here, has the authority from Christ to set what disciplines it deems most fitting for His priests; God isn’t miserly in giving the gift of celibacy to those He calls and thus it is and has been received with full knowledge and and happily so by millions and millions of priests through the ages. Keep in mind that this very call must be ratified by His Church; a man can’t just show up and say that God has called me and voila’ he becomes a priest. There is a long period of discernment to see if the call is from God and whether the discipline asked for by His Church can be accepted. You speak as if the Church’s decision for this discipline is made up out of whole cloth.

These articles might be helpful to you:

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0165.html

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0166.html

ewtn.com/library/PRIESTS/CELIBACY.HTM

ewtn.com/library/PRIESTS/CELMDPSY.HTM

 

[TiggerS]

Thank you very much for that. I overlooked that scripture in John when I quoted you. I forget about John meaning what it did and matthew 16: 19 meaning what it did. I got them mixed. A mistake on my part. I do see clearer now.

Humility!

No worries! Wish I had a penny for every time I had forgotten and made mistakes, and incidentally on my part - COMPLETELY mixed up and confused. At 66yrs, it’s almost a condition of daily existence!

 

[feed_me]

Not at all; nowhere does St. Paul indicate that it is demanded that only married men may be priests; he simply says that married men must have only one wife.

It is in the scripture, between the parentheses. My bible has those same exact words as every bible does. If those parentheses aren’t there then something is amiss.

OTC, Christ being celibate (and not from happenstance) certainly shows the fittingness of this admissable norm of discipline for the Church.

Just because Christ was celibate, doesn’t mean that we all have to be celibates to follow him.

OTC, His Church, as has already been addressed here, has the authority from Christ to set what disciplines it deems most fitting for His priests; God isn’t miserly in giving the gift of celibacy to those He calls and thus it is and has been received with full knowledge and and happily so by millions and millions of priests through the ages.

Yes but that is the thing. If God gave the gift of Celibacy why do many priests leave the church to get married instead of staying as priests? No offence but not everybody is given celibacy who is called. Nor are they given the gift when they get baptized with the Holy Spirit, which is after you confess Jesus is Lord, and God gives you a new heart btw where you can actually feel the remorse of concious when you do wrong.

So I ask what is celibacy? Is it the state of which where you have no more of a sex drive? Where girl/guy after girl/guy comes your way luring you with with the immorality of dress, or lack there of and you have no care to look back or have no interest at all? I mean what is it? Cause I don’t have it, nor given it with the baptism of HS.

Keep in mind that this very call must be ratified by His Church; a man can’t just show up and say that God has called me and voila’ he becomes a priest. There is a long period of discernment to see if the call is from God and whether the discipline asked for by His Church can be accepted. You speak as if the Church’s decision for this discipline is made up out of whole cloth.

Are you sure about that? If there is a long period of discernment to see if the call is from God, then are they listening? I mean when you actually hear Gods voice, the actual voice of God, (and I do from time to time, which I need to work on more )it makes every other voice pale in comparison, and you will know instantly who it is, and you can discern very easily who is God and who isn’t, and if you ask him he will tell you what he wants you to do in life. Ask and you will recieve.

Humility!

No worries! Wish I had a penny for every time I had forgotten and made mistakes, and incidentally on my part - COMPLETELY mixed up and confused. At 66yrs, it’s almost a condition of daily existence!

LIke I said I am still learning. I’m a theologin in training, learning and making mistakes. I wish I could get with more people that actually know this stuff like the back of their hand.

Btw didn’t Paul have to correct Peter in his teachings?

Sometimes I just feel that my words fall on deaf ears.

 

[TiggerS]

So I ask what is celibacy? Is it the state of which where you have no more of a sex drive? Where girl/guy after girl/guy comes your way luring you with with the immorality of dress, or lack there of and you have no care to look back or have no interest at all? I mean what is it? Cause I don’t have it, nor given it with the baptism of HS.

I’m an armchair everything but will have a try at least in part. Celibacy is not the lack of a normal sex drive although it is expressed without a sexual relationship (sublimation). Anyone can give in to temptation including priests, although we all have the Grace to resist temptation. Certainly a priest because of Holy Orders and his status in The Church as an “authority” and in the general community as being in a position of Catholic Christian leadership has a very serious obligation indeed to both re his vows. I am sure a priest might appreciate an attractive woman. I sure appreciate an attractive guy and give thanks to God for them and that “I am still a woman” though celibate.and very happily so. Does this mean I do not experience tempation - No. But certainly I do not experience overwhelming temptations against chaste celibacy. Could I? Yes I could and then I would be either speaking to my spiritual director or a priest - or even both.

Are you sure about that? If there is a long period of discernment to see if the call is from God, then are they listening? I mean when you actually hear Gods voice, the actual voice of God, (and I do from time to time, which I need to work on more )it makes every other voice pale in comparison, and you will know instantly who it is, and you can discern very easily who is God and who isn’t, and if you ask him he will tell you what he wants you to do in life. Ask and you will recieve.

Probably very rare is the person who hears The Lord actually speaking to them and it is regarded as a mystical phenomena. There are normally speaking three clear signs of vocation:

1. 
   *]Attraction to the life
   *]Ability to lead the life (psychological and spiritual maturity and for the priest (for one) would certainly include the ability to live comfortably with the chaste celibate state, which is not necessarily the absence of temptation. Temptation is only temptation and not sinful)
   *]Acceptance into the life
   
   This third sign for a priest is with ordination and only after six or seven years of study and formation in a seminary or noviciate. All three signs need be present to positively assess that the man does indeed have a vocation to Holy Orders and the Catholic Latin Rite priesthood.
   

   Just because Christ was celibate, doesn’t mean that we all have to be celibates to follow him.

   No way - of course! The rule of celibacy for the Latin Rite Catholic priesthood is a disciplinary rule only of The Church for the Latin Rite priesthood.