Former SDA now Catholic

[JoeyWarren]

Allow me to expand on the Constancy Issue.

None of the Apostles held Constancy. They all fled.

Even Paul did not hold Constancy. Paul was a Pharisee. He knew the Scriptures like the back of his hand. But he failed to recognize Jesus as the Messiah when Jesus walked and talked on the Earth prior to the Crucifixion. If Paul held any iota of Constancy, he would recognized Jesus as the promised Messiah. It took divine intervention for Paul to see the truth.

Only one person outside of Christ possessed Constancy and that was Mary herself.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

So, in other words, if it turns out that the Catholic Church is, in fact, just another work of man, and in fact doesn’t endure until the end times, the entire foundation of their faith would crumble out from underneath them?

I think that’s hilarious …

Actually, as humorous as it may sound, it is very true. Without the Catholic Church, SDA eschatology crumbles to dust and their prophet is instantly proven false. With no prophet and no end-time message, the SDA sect has no reason for being.

Now let’s look at this closely, the Hebrew economy of salvation (commonly known as Judaism although it predates the Jews by several hundred years) did not require an “archvillain” to exist and prosper. Its entire purpose was the worship of God through the sacrificial system. It was completely Christocentric.

The Catholic Church birthed at the Cross is the Hebrew economy of salvation in the LIGHT of CHRIST. We do not need an archvillain to exist and prosper. Our entire purpose is the worship of God through the Sacrifice of the Mass. We are completely Christocentric, in all of our doctrines. There is nothing in time and space that could deprive the Church of her reason for being.

How pathetic does the SDA sect look when considered in terms of eternity and purpose?

Marsha

 

[MarysRoses]

I have noticed that Protestant101 is back and posting more anti-Catholic rhetoric without answering the questions raised here.

I also notice a new SDA poster is raising the same old, tired charges that Catholicism is thinly disguised paganism, that we worship Mary, that we have to buy our salvation…

So i’m renewing my questions to them.

WHY does the Adventist church continue to spread falsehood about Catholicism, ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

This thread isn’t for debating the issues, I want an explanation of why Adventists think they know better than we do about what we believe.

MarysRose

 

[JoeyWarren]

I also notice a new SDA poster is raising the same old, tired charges that Catholicism is thinly disguised paganism, that we worship Mary, that we have to buy our salvation…

by any chance is it DrDude?

 

[Protestant101]

I have noticed that Protestant101 is back and posting more anti-Catholic rhetoric without answering the questions raised here.

This thread isn’t for debating the issues, I want an explanation of why Adventists think they know better than we do about what we believe.MarysRose

If you don’t want me here; and I have broken any forum rules; then have your Moderator ban me.

I only post here because of your anti-adventist rhetoric; and your clearly biased approach to all Adventists. No matter what I say here; you are determined to have me accused and convicted of all kinds of shady dealing and evasive tactics in my posting; therefore I ask you. is there any sense in me replying to you further?

If Catholics want to bow down in front of statues of Mary and then try to convince the world that they don’t really worship her, choosing instead to say they are only reverencing or honoring her; I say that they are simply playing with semantics to evade the truth of the matter.

You cannot deny what I have personally seen here in Catholic Churches of my own city. I have seen exactly what I described above.

Mary is dead and the Bible says the dead know not anything. Why do you pray to someone who is dead? I pray to Jesus who is alive! (Jo.11:25). If you pray to Mary, you worship her. Prove me wrong from the Bible.

 

[MarysRoses]

If you don’t want me here; and I have broken any forum rules; then have your Moderator ban me.

No one accused you of breaking rules. I have accused you of distorting Catholic beliefs even when shown information contrary to your opinions.

I only post here because of your anti-adventist rhetoric; and your clearly biased approach to all Adventists. No matter what I say here; you are determined to have me accused and convicted of all kinds of shady dealing and evasive tactics in my posting; therefore I ask you. is there any sense in me replying to you further?

I consider it “shady and evasive” if you want to call it that, to make unfounded charges. I’m not telling you what to believe for yourself, but asking you to quit making false charges against others.

You refer to my ‘anti adventist rhetoric’. Please tell me where I have missrepresented Adventist teaching.

If Catholics want to bow down in front of statues of Mary and then try to convince the world that they don’t really worship her, choosing instead to say they are only reverencing or honoring her; I say that they are simply playing with semantics to evade the truth of the matter.

You are saying you know what is in the hearts of others, that you know better than they what their intentions are, and you know better than they what their Church teaches. Thats quite a claim.

You cannot deny what I have personally seen here in Catholic Churches of my own city. I have seen exactly what I described above.

You have seen people bowing to a statue. You are providing your own explanation and interpretation of the actions of others. Again, you are claiming to know their minds and hearts better than they do themselves.

Mary is dead and the Bible says the dead know not anything. Why do you pray to someone who is dead? I pray to Jesus who is alive! (Jo.11:25).

Matthew 22:31-32
…have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?” God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

2 Corinthians 5:6,8-9
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord… We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Revelation 6:9-10
When he broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of all the people who had been killed on account of the word of God, for witnessing to it. They shouted aloud, “Holy, faithful Master, how much longer will you wait before you pass sentence and take vengeance for our death on the inhabitants of the earth?”

Its interesting this last verse takes place before the resurrection.

If you pray to Mary, you worship her. Prove me wrong from the Bible.

Where in the Bible does it say that ‘Pray’ equals ‘Worship’?

I say the moon is made of green cheese! Prove me wrong from the Bible.

The bible does not address the composition of the moon. It also does not define what the english word ‘Pray’ means.

Pray can mean petition and in this instance refers to communication, not worship. The Mary and the saints are in heaven but are still part of the Church, and as such part of the Body of Christ. Who better to pray for us?

MarysRoses

 

[Protestant101]

I say the moon is made of green cheese! Prove me wrong from the Bible.

The bible does not address the composition of the moon. It also does not define what the english word ‘Pray’ means.

MarysRoses

LOL…that’s funny! (your comment re green cheese). You would think that whoever invented that saying about the moon and green cheese would have atleast gotten the color of it right.

So you use the word “communicate” to mean prayer? That’s good, but when we worship someone, we do communicate with them. So far, your argument is a semantic strawman.

Your scripture quotes are also really out of context, and therefore pretexts.

Take the first one you mentioned as “proving” that Mary is alive:

Matthew 22:31-32
…have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?” God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Please explain to us the details about how **THIS TEXT **proves your assertion.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

I was an SDA for 30 1/2 years before converting to Roman Catholic. In all that times I saw SDAs petition God and thank God, but I never say one WORSHIP God. So it is no wonder that they confuse communication with worship, since they clearly don’t know what worship is or how to do it.

 

[Protestant101]

I was an SDA for 30 1/2 years before converting to Roman Catholic. In all that times I saw SDAs petition God and thank God, but I never say one WORSHIP God. So it is no wonder that they confuse communication with worship, since they clearly don’t know what worship is or how to do it.

SDAs have been accused here of saying falsehoods about what Catholics teach about Mary.

You are simply manipulating semantics here to wrest your own opinions from plain truth.

There are many forms of worship, and prayer, as recorded in the Bible, is just one of them. To deny this, is to deny Scripture.

1 Timothy 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

When I see Catholics do this with what/who they say is “Mary;” how can I see it as anything but worship?

 

[Maria1212]

If you don’t want me here; and I have broken any forum rules; then have your Moderator ban me.

I only post here because of your anti-adventist rhetoric; and your clearly biased approach to all Adventists. No matter what I say here; you are determined to have me accused and convicted of all kinds of shady dealing and evasive tactics in my posting; therefore I ask you. is there any sense in me replying to you further?

If Catholics want to bow down in front of statues of Mary and then try to convince the world that they don’t really worship her, choosing instead to say they are only reverencing or honoring her; I say that they are simply playing with semantics to evade the truth of the matter.

You cannot deny what I have personally seen here in Catholic Churches of my own city. I have seen exactly what I described above.

Mary is dead and the Bible says the dead know not anything. Why do you pray to someone who is dead? I pray to Jesus who is alive! (Jo.11:25). If you pray to Mary, you worship her. Prove me wrong from the Bible.

If you don’t want me here; and I have broken any forum rules; then have your Moderator ban me.

I only post here because of your anti-adventist rhetoric; and your clearly biased approach to all Adventists. No matter what I say here; you are determined to have me accused and convicted of all kinds of shady dealing and evasive tactics in my posting; therefore I ask you. is there any sense in me replying to you further?

If Catholics want to bow down in front of statues of Mary and then try to convince the world that they don’t really worship her, choosing instead to say they are only reverencing or honoring her; I say that they are simply playing with semantics to evade the truth of the matter.

You cannot deny what I have personally seen here in Catholic Churches of my own city. I have seen exactly what I described above.

Mary is dead and the Bible says the dead know not anything. Why do you pray to someone who is dead? I pray to Jesus who is alive! (Jo.11:25). If you pray to Mary, you worship her. Prove me wrong from the Bible.

This statement is filled with anti-Catholic rhetoric indeed. In contrast, nothing MarysRoses has said is anti-SDA. Rather, she disagrees with some SDA beliefs, always explains why, and provides credible authoritiative sources to support her argument.

You are clearly misinformed if you equate bowing with worshiping. I live in Japan and we bow to each other as a sign of respect and honor and reverence. The same can be said when bowing one`s head in prayer inside a church, whether in front of a statue or not. Praying to someone is not the same as worshiping. Catholics and many of our Protestant brothers and sisters pray to those in heaven, to ask them to join us in prayer to Jesus.

If you desire to learn more about the Catholic faith, your allegations have already been addressed on previous threads. If you intent is to spread anti-Catholic rhetoric, rather than learn, do not waste your efforts, or our time, here. MarysRoses asked a question, and in our posts on this thread, we should respond to her question.

MarysRoses, to answer your question, in my humble opinion, I think many Adventists promote false teachings about Catholicism due to fear, ignorance, skewed interpretation of the truth, or misunderstanding of the Bible. Most SDAs do not have ill intent. However, this is no excuse for the numerous misquotes, misrepresentation, and downright error found in many Adventist publications. All writers would do well to follow one of the basic rules of writing and always seek out the PRIMARY source of a work, before they cite it in their own publication. To misrepresent the teachings of another religion, is downright deceit.

Sincerely,
Maria1212

 

[adventistnomore]

Protestant 101,

You never responded to my earlier posts. I raised some very particular arguments that I hope you will consider more focusedly in your next few posts; I still look forward to a lively, intelligent discussion on them. As it is, this thread has unraveled into an incoherent series of accusations, which would be best avoided if we focused on a single, narrow subject. If you would rather discuss another aspect of Christian mariology, then please identify it, and I will address the relevant theological considerations.

 

[Protestant101]

They seem very obsessed about the Catholic Church.

Do they have any actual doctrines of their own, that you know of? Or is it all about erecting strawmen and contradicting supposed doctrines of the Catholic Church (which seem to be mostly made up of ideas of their own invention, anyway, having little or nothing to do with the actual Catholic Church).

Not everyone feels the same about Seventh-day Adventists:


George Bush on Seventh-day Adventists


Hillary Clinton on Seventh-day Adventists

Although we are not the only ones; we do play some very important roles in society. I do not understand any of the main tenets of the reformation as being against people - only against ideas.

Sometimes; it is hard to draw the line between the people and their ideas; but perhaps forums like this will help the cause a little?

Former Adventists seem just about as hard on Adventists, as former Catholics are on Catholics. I can agree that it should not be this way.

 

[Maria1212]

Protestant 101,

You never responded to my earlier posts. I raised some very particular arguments that I hope you will consider more focusedly in your next few posts; I still look forward to a lively, intelligent discussion on them. As it is, this thread has unraveled into an incoherent series of accusations, which would be best avoided if we focused on a single, narrow subject. If you would rather discuss another aspect of Christian mariology, then please identify it, and I will address the relevant theological considerations.

I was wondering if Protestant 101 responded to any of your questions by starting a new thread. If so, could you paste the links? Thank you!!

As a side note, I always appreciate the way Adventistnomore and Marys Roses give their personal responses based on their own research and study, rather than by provide"canned off the shelf" responses pasted or copied from someone elses work.

I hope one thing Adventists learn after visiting CAF, is that while they may not believe what we believe, or agree with what we believe, they walk away with an understanding of why we believe what we believe. We are not misinformed.

Sincerely,
Maria1212

 

[Protestant101]

Non-denominationalism???

Catholics are an “ism” too.

Catholic-ism…

But that’s OK. Us Adventists don’t hate you and we don’t teach that only Adventists will be saved.

We teach that some Adventists will be lost too. I find that people get too defensive when confronted with God’s judgments. It’s almost like we think they are for others, but not for us.

The Bible has some pretty colorful stuff in it re what will happen to people who are not following God in the endtimes.

If you look at Catholic literature, on end times; it becomes quickly apparent that they too have some ominous things on the burner. For eg., the 3rd “Secret Of Fatima” is now being purported to not have been fully revealed. But, if you look at what has been revealed, and what people think has not yet been disclosed; it gets pretty scarey.

I think it’s unfair to judge people because their endtime prophecy denounces something you believe or practice. Catholic literature I have in my own library here at home suggests it will not go well for me if I do not become a Catholic. I don’t take this as an insult; nor do I feel Catholics are bigoted against me. People should be able to state their beliefs; and we should not expect them to be all wine and roses, for any Bible version you want to choose will have the same condemnations and teachings re judgment of “the great whore” of revelation. I feel too that some catholics really do care about me; and just want me to be saved; like we do them.

We can continue to accuse one another; or we can be a little more enlightened, and continue to compare notes.

 

[Nan_S]

But that’s OK. Us Adventists don’t hate you and we don’t teach that only Adventists will be saved.

We teach that some Adventists will be lost too. I find that people get too defensive when confronted with God’s judgments. It’s almost like we think they are for others, but not for us.

We can continue to accuse one another; or we can be a little more enlightened, and continue to compare notes.

Thank you. I would like to compare notes.

Do the SDA teachings address these two passages? They are used by Catholics to support the teachings that prayer can be offered to God through His creatures who are already in heaven before the first resurrection.

Rev 5:7-9 He came and received the scroll from the right hand of the one who sat on the throne. When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the saints. They sang a new hymn: "Worthy are you to receive the scroll and to break open its seals, for you were slain and with your blood you purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue, people and nation.

Rev 8:3-4 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of all the saints went up before God from the hand of the angel.

Those in the presence of God in heaven have been purified and perfected, therefore sin is not an issue. The elders and the angel can not have stolen the prayers enroute to God. But clearly the elders and the angel have possession of the prayers of the saints being offered to God.

Much ado has been made elsewhere about the bible using the word “saints” to refer to us humans - Christ’s church here on earth. Catholics also use the word Saint, with a capital “S”, to refer to people who we believe have received their purification and been admitted into the presence of God before the first resurrection of the dead:

Rev 7:9-10 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!”

The question, therefore, is how the elders and angel got ahold of the prayers in their bowls. The Catholic take on this is that the saints (us on earth) have prayed to the creatures in heaven, asking that they pray for us and raise our prayers to God. In the Litany of the Saints, Catholics call upon the names of the Saints in heaven and ask, “Holy men and women of God, pray for us.” The prayers in the bowls were given to the creatures in heaven by us, that they be offered to God.

Nan

 

[Protestant101]

Thank you. I would like to compare notes.

Do the SDA teachings address these two passages? They are used by Catholics to support the teachings that prayer can be offered to God through His creatures who are already in heaven before the first resurrection.

Rev 5:7-9 He came and received the scroll from the right hand of the one who sat on the throne. When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the saints. They sang a new hymn: "Worthy are you to receive the scroll and to break open its seals, for you were slain and with your blood you purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue, people and nation.

Rev 8:3-4 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of all the saints went up before God from the hand of the angel.

Those in the presence of God in heaven have been purified and perfected, therefore sin is not an issue. The elders and the angel can not have stolen the prayers enroute to God. But clearly the elders and the angel have possession of the prayers of the saints being offered to God.

Much ado has been made elsewhere about the bible using the word “saints” to refer to us humans - Christ’s church here on earth. Catholics also use the word Saint, with a capital “S”, to refer to people who we believe have received their purification and been admitted into the presence of God before the first resurrection of the dead:

Rev 7:9-10 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!”

The question, therefore, is how the elders and angel got ahold of the prayers in their bowls. The Catholic take on this is that the saints (us on earth) have prayed to the creatures in heaven, asking that they pray for us and raise our prayers to God. In the Litany of the Saints, Catholics call upon the names of the Saints in heaven and ask, “Holy men and women of God, pray for us.” The prayers in the bowls were given to the creatures in heaven by us, that they be offered to God.

Nan

Hi Nan,

Thanks for this reply. it may be a few days or so before I can get back to reply; but I will make this post my first stop when I am able to get back here to CA. I will be glad to compare notes on these two scriptures, when I can get here again.

 

[water]

Why does the Adventist Church persist in claiming that the Catholic Church teaches things that she emphatically does not?

I’ll save the history questions and others for seperate threads, if there are people interested in discussing them.

MarysRoses

God bless you, MarysRoses. Welcome back Home! it is great to be Home!

There are many people out there who have been wrongly informed about our Catholic faith and this goes on and on from one generation to another.

As you see, some people who come to this forum have the same idea about us worshiping Mary while others have come to realize what they’ve been taught or told were wrong and they are to eagerly to find out the truth.

 

[jmcrae]

I think it’s unfair to judge people because their endtime prophecy denounces something you believe or practice.

I think the difference is that we don’t say specifically, “the leader of the Adventists is going to be the Anti-Christ.”

What happens to your religion if it turns out that the Catholic Church really is a man-made religion (as you claim it is), and that there is no Pope to be the anti-Christ in the End Times, the Catholic Church having gone the way of all man-made things, and been dissolved into mist like the kingdom of the Aztecs?

 

[Protestant101]

I think the difference is that we don’t say specifically, “the leader of the Adventists is going to be the Anti-Christ.”

What happens to your religion if it turns out that the Catholic Church really is a man-made religion (as you claim it is), and that there is no Pope to be the anti-Christ in the End Times, the Catholic Church having gone the way of all man-made things, and been dissolved into mist like the kingdom of the Aztecs?

As I mentioned; I am too pressed for time for the next few days to answer in detail; if at all; but i will be back asap.

it should be noted though that there is also a lot of misunderstanding about Adventist beliefs; and that we actually do not teach, on an official basis, that all Catholic beliefs and practices are “man-made.”

See you guys again soon!

 

[JoeyWarren]

As I mentioned; I am too pressed for time for the next few days to answer in detail; if at all; but i will be back asap.

it should be noted though that there is also a lot of misunderstanding about Adventist beliefs; and that we actually do not teach, on an official basis, that all Catholic beliefs and practices are “man-made.”

See you guys again soon!

Will will be waiting…