Former SDA now Catholic

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It is my opinion that understanding the Catholic view of Mary might be easier for a Protestant if they first understood the Eastern Orthodox view of Jesus and how salvation works.

I say this because it seems to be working that way in my own experience, as a former SDA becoming Orthodox. Also, because at least for the first 1000 years or so, Catholics and Orthodox share the same tradition for the most part.

I don’t claim to have a very good understanding of any of the above though! It’s just my general impression at this point in the journey.

Jeremiah
 
jsenner said:
It is my opinion that understanding the Catholic view of Mary might be easier for a Protestant if they first understood the Eastern Orthodox view of Jesus and how salvation works.

I say this because it seems to be working that way in my own experience, as a former SDA becoming Orthodox. Also, because at least for the first 1000 years or so, Catholics and Orthodox share the same tradition for the most part.

I don’t claim to have a very good understanding of any of the above though! It’s just my general impression at this point in the journey.

Jeremiah
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Welcome home.
 
Hi Jeremiah!

It’d be great if you’d share the specifics of Orthodoxy’s “view of Jesus and how salvation works,” for the benefit of our Adventist readers. You’re perspective is unique.

Hugo 🙂
 
adventistnomore said:
Hi Jeremiah!

It’d be great if you’d share the specifics of Orthodoxy’s “view of Jesus and how salvation works,” for the benefit of our Adventist readers. You’re perspective is unique.

Hugo 🙂
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It’s not really recommended that beginners in Orthodoxy explain Orthodoxy. So what I say should be taken lightly…

In Orthodoxy you don’t have the doctrine of Original Sin, where people are born guilty. You do have the doctrine that man’s nature inherently sins, it misses the mark of what God intended for us; we were supposed to become like God but we decided to become like the Devil and passed that tendency on through the generations. This caused death because sin brings forth death. There was nothing we could do to rescue ourselves. We were in bondage to our nature, to sin, and to death.

What Christ did was partake of our nature. This united our nature to God again. Christ took our death, and destroyed it in the process, and loosed the bondage to sin that we have.

We experience salvation by union with Christ. Baptism, the Eucharist, and other sacraments are ways we experience this new unity with Christ. We die and experience Christ’s victory over death. Ultimately, we are resurrected, too.

One way this relates to Mary is that through Mary our human nature was united to God, when the Eternal Word became flesh, in the Incarnation. Thus Mary plays a significant role in our salvation.

In the Orthodox view salvation isn’t defined as a one-time pronouncement of God acting the role of a judge in a courtroom, but rather as the experience of our hitting the mark of what God made humans for. Thus, it is incorrect for Protestants to think what they normally would think when they hear that Mary contributes to our salvation.

Mary helps save us by providing the avenue for the union of human nature with divinity, accomplished in Christ and participated in by every Christian by being one with Christ.

This is one reason for the great importance of “one body” in the Eucharist. We are being one with Christ in that act. Christ is not divided, therefore the great importance of unity in the church.

For what it’s worth, and probably a very incomplete explanation, but you asked and I tried.

Jeremiah
 
Jeremiah,

You have nothing for which to apologize; I totally agree (albeit while believing in original sin). Christ could not have saved humanity without first assuming our physical nature, which required the free cooperation of Mary. Therefore, Mary is especially integral to Christs salvific work on our behalf, which culminated in the crucifixion, and continues in the Eucharist (“unless you eat my flesh…”; Jn 6:51 ff.).

Also, your reminder that salvation is not a one-time pronouncement raises yet another point for consideration. Because salvation is a process, it is a work in which all Christians cooperate. Our intercessions for one another are sources of spiritual healing and reformation, even to the point where we can legitmately be said to “save” one another (Ja 5:16,19-20). Rahner concurs, adding that early Christians believed penitential absolution flows to us through the intercession of the Church entire, united with Christ our head (Theol. Investig. II, pp.181-6; he cites this fact as the basis for the Church’s teaching on indulgences). Therefore, Mary’s universal intercessory ministry must encourage the salvation of every Christian; after all, the “prayer of a righteous man avails much” (Ja 5:16). We obtain salvation through her prayers, as well as those of our brothers and sisters IN CHRIST, our one Mediator.
 
Nan_S said:
Thank you. I would like to compare notes.

Do the SDA teachings address these two passages?

The question, therefore, is how the elders and angel got ahold of the prayers in their bowls. The Catholic take on this is that the saints (us on earth) have prayed to the creatures in heaven, asking that they pray for us and raise our prayers to God. In the Litany of the Saints, Catholics call upon the names of the Saints in heaven and ask, “Holy men and women of God, pray for us.” The prayers in the bowls were given to the creatures in heaven by us, that they be offered to God.

Nan
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Hello Nan

Sorry it took me so long to get back here to this topic. Sometimes I have to be away for a while; but I am glad to come back & visit. I appreciated this post you made to me because of the inquiry and study into the Bible that it will involve, and so I will look forward to it.

For the sake of brevity, I ommitted a portion of your post in my quote above; but I have made a note of the texts you referred to in post #74, and I thought that it might be a good idea for me to start a separate topic, relating to the subject of “praying to the saints” rather than getting it tangled up in this topic re Mary.

There are some other, more specific things that pertain only to Mary, which I would be interested in pursuing here in this topic.

If this proposal sounds OK to you; then I will commence with a new topic called “Praying To The Saints: What To Tell A Protestant,” and then we can take it from there. Once I hear from you on this; I will also be glad to continue in this thread about some Mary-specific things I am interested in looking into more.

Thanks for your patience in waiting!!👍
 
SDA2RC said:
Awesome Post Jeremiah, thank you!
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Brandon

“Only you can prevent bunny-punchings!”

I think your “jokes” are an abuse of the liturgy.
Perhaps you are uncontrollably turning into a Protestant again?:confused:
 
Protestant101 said:
Brandon

“Only you can prevent bunny-punchings!”

I think your “jokes” are an abuse of the liturgy.
Perhaps you are uncontrollably turning into a Protestant again?:confused:
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Protestant101,
Thanks for stopping by the blog! 😉 Are you a member of PETA? :eek:

BTW… If I were becoming SDA again, I certainly wouldn’t need to be worried about Liturgy… 😉
 
No. I am not a member of PETA. I don’t even know what it is. Maybe you can tell me?

BTW; notice that I did not suggest that you were becoming SDA again; I said “Protestant.”

I was just making the point that if you are so worried about the liturgy; why would you joke about it so?:eek:
 
jsenner said:
What Christ did was partake of our nature. This united our nature to God again. Christ took our death, and destroyed it in the process, and loosed the bondage to sin that we have.

We experience salvation by union with Christ. Baptism, the Eucharist, and other sacraments are ways we experience this new unity with Christ. We die and experience Christ’s victory over death. Ultimately, we are resurrected, too.

One way this relates to Mary is that through Mary our human nature was united to God, when the Eternal Word became flesh, in the Incarnation. Thus Mary plays a significant role in our salvation.

In the Orthodox view salvation isn’t defined as a one-time pronouncement of God acting the role of a judge in a courtroom, but rather as the experience of our hitting the mark of what God made humans for. Thus, it is incorrect for Protestants to think what they normally would think when they hear that Mary contributes to our salvation.

Mary helps save us by providing the avenue for the union of human nature with divinity, accomplished in Christ and participated in by every Christian by being one with Christ.

This is one reason for the great importance of “one body” in the Eucharist. We are being one with Christ in that act. Christ is not divided, therefore the great importance of unity in the church.

For what it’s worth, and probably a very incomplete explanation, but you asked and I tried.

Jeremiah
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This is interesting.

The way I see it though is that Mary did not provide us with anything. She, like us, simply agreed to be God’s agent by which Jesus provides us with something.

The Bible also speaks about how we in turn partake of Christ’s nature:
**2Pe 1:4 ** Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
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This text mentions nothing about us needing a co-Mediator or Mediatrix or any such thing. Mary doesn’t give us these promises. God does; in His Word. His Word is available to everyone, whether or not there is a Mary, a Priest or a Pope around.
 
Protestant101 said:
This text mentions nothing about us needing a co-Mediator or Mediatrix or any such thing. Mary doesn’t give us these promises. God does; in His Word. His Word is available to everyone, whether or not there is a Mary, a Priest or a Pope around.
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One of the little gripes Eastern Orthodox Christians have with Western Christians in general is the tendency to have a religion based on books, or rules. It’s so easy in the west to codify every last detail.

Your mention of God’s Word in this context makes me think you mean a book. When Greek Christians hear the word Logos (“Word” in Greek) in means a whole lot more than you imagine from a Protestant perspective. The WORD became flesh… etc.

In Orthodoxy we worship the Word made flesh! He has more revelations than simply a book.

Oh, BTW; The Word got His flesh from… Mary! She’s special to us!

Oh yeah and the Word says he has a Body on this earth… he calls it a “Church”. There are priests, bishops, deacons, and lay people in the Church.

Jeremiah
 
jsenner said:
One of the little gripes Eastern Orthodox Christians have with Western Christians in general is the tendency to have a religion based on books, or rules. It’s so easy in the west to codify every last detail.

Your mention of God’s Word in this context makes me think you mean a book. When Greek Christians hear the word Logos (“Word” in Greek) in means a whole lot more than you imagine from a Protestant perspective. The WORD became flesh… etc.

In Orthodoxy we worship the Word made flesh! He has more revelations than simply a book.

Oh, BTW; The Word got His flesh from… Mary! She’s special to us!

Oh yeah and the Word says he has a Body on this earth… he calls it a “Church”. There are priests, bishops, deacons, and lay people in the Church.

Jeremiah
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Yes, and His revelations would match what’s in the “Book” and anything that does not match is falsehood. The Bible, containing God’s Word, is not like an ordinary book. It is still today “The Word of God.” God’s Word has the same creative power as Him, to create what it says…for if it did not, then we might as well throw it out. If the Bible says that "all things become new; God’s Word then, does have the power to do what it says

The Bible tells us that we partake of the divine nature through the promises of God, as written in His Word. This has nothing to do with Mary - especially when we consider things that she purportedly told “us” during the time when The Secrets of Fatima were manifested by an apparition claiming to be her.
 
Protestant101 said:
Yes, and His revelations would match what’s in the “Book” and anything that does not match is falsehood. The Bible, containing God’s Word, is not like an ordinary book. It is still today “The Word of God.” God’s Word has the same creative power as Him, to create what it says…for if it did not, then we might as well throw it out. If the Bible says that "all things become new; God’s Word then, does have the power to do what it says

The Bible tells us that we partake of the divine nature through the promises of God, as written in His Word. This has nothing to do with Mary - especially when we consider things that she purportedly told “us” during the time when The Secrets of Fatima were manifested by an apparition claiming to be her.
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There is no part of Catholicism that contradicts the Bible. As for Mary, shouldn`t we honor and respect the woman who gave birth to, and raised, Jesus? Moreover, Catholics do not have to believe that Mary appeared at Fatima. That is an individual choice, but one does not need to believe it. For the sake of argument, what did she “purportedly tell us” that contradicts Scripture?

Sincerely,

Maria1212
 
Protestant101 said:
Yes, and His revelations would match what’s in the “Book” and anything that does not match is falsehood.
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EVERY Catholic on this thread agrees with you. 🙂

Trouble is, you interpret the Bible differently from us. So how do we know which interpretation is right?

…the Bible?
Yeah, that’s the SOURCE of our disagreement. So how do we know which interpretation is right?

…the Bible?
Again, we kinda don’t agree on how to interpret it. So how do we know which interpretation is right?

…the Bible?
We’re kinda going around in circles, aren’t we!?
 
As it has been said before, Jesus did not hand each of the disciples a leather bound red letter edition of the KJV as He ascended into heaven. The early Christians had no book. But they did have the Word, for as Jesus promised, “Lo, I am with you always.”

The Protestants get out of joint over our respect for Mary and the Saints, calling it idolatry. This is clearly the pot calling the kettle black, since they so obviously worship the Bible.
 
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