Forum on Tolerance to Muslims

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NightRider:
I believe *you *are missing something, not Mr Kofi Annan. There were numerous American Muslims speaking out against 9/11 in the press and on television. In Seattle, which is near where I live, there were numerous public actions taken by local Muslims to show solidarity with Americans against terrorism and to educate the public about Islam. Many Muslim academics all across the country have written letters and articles attempting to educate the American public about the true nature of Islam. Americans refuse to hear! I know numerous Muslims who condemn the terrorists and speak out as often as they can. There is a wealth of information for the American people if they are truly interested in *learning *about Islam and how American Muslims actually feel about terrorism. The problem is many Americans have no desire to learn anything that contradicts their misinformed *opinions. :banghead: *
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These Muslim academics are about as full of hot air as the Catholic academics that try to educate America about the true nature of Christianity - both are completely wrong on the Scripture and Theology of their faiths.
 
:But I don’t remember hearing any Muslims speaking out after September 11.:

As others have pointed out, that is really your problem. It isn’t hard to find. You just aren’t looking. When it was pointed out to you that a simple google search brings up plenty of evidence, you claimed that it ought to have been spoon-fed to you on the major networks. In othe words, you haven’t really been looking.

And as for media bias, it’s not as simple as “right” or “left.” On security/terrorism issues, the mainstream media have a “conservative” bias. On socio-cultural issues, they have a “liberal” bias. At least, that’s how it looks to me, but that’s probably because my own bias is exactly the opposite.

In Christ,

Edwin
 
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NightRider:
There is the Palestine/Israel problem and most Muslims support the Palestinian desire for an independent state;.
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This is just not true. If you are talking of a specific subset of Muslims perhaps but if you took all the Muslims in the world, it is not true. There is a very large number that would just as well see Israel off the map.
 
Muslims lined up
strongly behind the opinion that “the rights and needs of the Palestinian
people cannot be taken care of as long as the state of Israel exists.”
.
The conviction that no way can be found for Israel and the Palestinians to
coexist is strongest in Morocco (90 percent), followed by Jordan (85
percent), the Palestinian Authority (80 percent), Kuwait (72 percent),
Lebanon (65 percent), Indonesia (58 percent) and Pakistan (57 percent).
Poll: Muslims lament Israel’s existence
Meg Bortin - International Herald Tribune Tuesday, June 3, 2003
iht.com/articles/98399.html

[IMRA: For copy of full report
http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/185.pdf”]http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/185.pdf ]
 
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Brad:
The extremist Muslims read the Koran and do what it says. The moderate but serious practicing Muslims read the Koran and silently sympathize with the terrorist. The cafeteria Muslims condemn the terrorist attacks and then run for the hills and change religions so as to not get their head chopped off.
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Extremist Moslems misrepresent the message of Islam. They do not portray a balanced presentation of Islamic belief. While some other Moslems may sympathize with the numerous grievances which lie behind terrorist actions, not all other Moslems do.

Some Moslems are afraid to speak out directly for fear of reprisal against them by the extremists similar to the way an abused person may be afraid to speak out against the abuser.
Others refuse to speak out against fellow Moslems for the mere fact that they are fellow Moslems, and not because they support their violent deeds.

The relationship between Islamic culture and the West has never been a smooth one. All parties involved need to strive toward a more pronounced and respectful understanding of each other in order to achieve greater tolerance.
 
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Contarini:
As others have pointed out, that is really your problem. It isn’t hard to find. You just aren’t looking. When it was pointed out to you that a simple google search brings up plenty of evidence, you claimed that it ought to have been spoon-fed to you on the major networks. In othe words, you haven’t really been looking.
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I don’t think it is the problem of one individual poster. I think it is more of a problem of Muslims to correct their image.

For example, I worked on a new house for a Christian organization to provide a home for a family that otherwise could not afford one. Right NEXT DOOR lived Muslims that were arrested, tried, and convicted of planning terrorist attacks on U.S. soil. These were Muslims that grew up right here in the U.S. These were the good Muslims - educated, clean records, good citizens. All the while, the local mosque denied widespread knowledge or participation, including a local Muslim community leader that owned a small business. This went on for over a year. Finally, the local leader was also arrested for funneling significant amounts of money illegally to Middle-East groups. It was obviously not just his own money.

This has happened in other parts of the U.S. as well as the U.K, Spain, France and all over the world.

Is it us that must force a trusting image on groups that have been shown to be un-trustworthy - or are they to change their behavior, actions, and words to better their image?
 
gilliam said:
Muslims lined up
strongly behind the opinion that “the rights and needs of the Palestinian
people cannot be taken care of as long as the state of Israel exists.”
.
The conviction that no way can be found for Israel and the Palestinians to
coexist is strongest in Morocco (90 percent), followed by Jordan (85
percent), the Palestinian Authority (80 percent), Kuwait (72 percent),
Lebanon (65 percent), Indonesia (58 percent) and Pakistan (57 percent).
Poll: Muslims lament Israel’s existence
Meg Bortin - International Herald Tribune Tuesday, June 3, 2003
iht.com/articles/98399.html

[IMRA: For copy of full report
http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/185.pdf”]http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/185.pdf
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]

And the IHT is owned by the New York Times so we be assured those percentages are not any lower that claimed.
 
4 marks:
Extremist Moslems misrepresent the message of Islam. They do not portray a balanced presentation of Islamic belief. While some other Moslems may sympathize with the numerous grievances which lie behind terrorist actions, not all other Moslems do.

Some Moslems are afraid to speak out directly for fear of reprisal against them by the extremists similar to the way an abused person may be afraid to speak out against the abuser.
Others refuse to speak out against fellow Moslems for the mere fact that they are fellow Moslems, and not because they support their violent deeds.

The relationship between Islamic culture and the West has never been a smooth one. All parties involved need to strive toward a more pronounced and respectful understanding of each other in order to achieve greater tolerance.
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You basically said what I said but in a more politcally correct fashion. That’s fine but reality is reality.

If Christians were blowing people up you can be assurred that there would be millions of Christians raising their voices against them. This is because the fundamental technique of evangelization to Christianity is peace and the fundamental technique of evangelization to Islam is the sword. This is the basic theology. I can’t have tolerance for evangelization by the sword.

I am willing to be understanding and work to assist Muslims that are oppressed, poor and in other bad conditions. In fact, I donate to organizations that help them. I will show tolerance and understanding to peacful Muslims. However, I cannot tolerate a flawed ideology (Islam) that is essentially a strong Christian heresy that works in oppositon to Christianity - both literally and figuratively, physically and spiritually.

Muslims that reject violence and are not in a position to suffer for their speech must find their voice to condemn the violence - my suggestion is that when they do this, it will lead them further away from the errors in their faith.
 
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Brad:
I don’t think it is the problem of one individual poster. I think it is more of a problem of Muslims to correct their image.

For example, I worked on a new house for a Christian organization to provide a home for a family that otherwise could not afford one. Right NEXT DOOR lived Muslims that were arrested, tried, and convicted of planning terrorist attacks on U.S. soil. These were Muslims that grew up right here in the U.S. These were the good Muslims - educated, clean records, good citizens. All the while, the local mosque denied widespread knowledge or participation, including a local Muslim community leader that owned a small business. This went on for over a year. Finally, the local leader was also arrested for funneling significant amounts of money illegally to Middle-East groups. It was obviously not just his own money.

This has happened in other parts of the U.S. as well as the U.K, Spain, France and all over the world.

Is it us that must force a trusting image on groups that have been shown to be un-trustworthy - or are they to change their behavior, actions, and words to better their image?
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Brad responding to this post and your previous response to me. You are correct, it’s not just fear. I think one facet of Islam that is hard for us to understand is the loyalty to fellow Muslims rather than to a state. That is a reason Al Qaeda has had such success all over the world. The loyalty is not to a leader or a people or a country but to a religion and the common goal as expressed through the jihadists. They would turn against their countrymen to help “fellow” Muslims. We OTOH are very very nationalistic. We love and defend AMERICA rather than saying well we’ll defend Catholics or Methodists regardless of where they are and what they do. A completely different worldview exists in the Muslim world.

I’m not sure of your location but we had a similar situation here in Oregon. Actually SEVERAL Muslim organizations were operating and as with your experience, these were basically people ‘born and bred in the USA.’ But their loyalty was to an ideaology and not to their neighbors, their non-Muslim friends, co-workers or fellow citizens.

We are foolish to be oblivious to this very real difference.

Lisa N
 
Lisa N:
Brad responding to this post and your previous response to me. You are correct, it’s not just fear. I think one facet of Islam that is hard for us to understand is the loyalty to fellow Muslims rather than to a state. That is a reason Al Qaeda has had such success all over the world. The loyalty is not to a leader or a people or a country but to a religion and the common goal as expressed through the jihadists. They would turn against their countrymen to help “fellow” Muslims. We OTOH are very very nationalistic. We love and defend AMERICA rather than saying well we’ll defend Catholics or Methodists regardless of where they are and what they do. A completely different worldview exists in the Muslim world.

I’m not sure of your location but we had a similar situation here in Oregon. Actually SEVERAL Muslim organizations were operating and as with your experience, these were basically people ‘born and bred in the USA.’ But their loyalty was to an ideaology and not to their neighbors, their non-Muslim friends, co-workers or fellow citizens.

We are foolish to be oblivious to this very real difference.

Lisa N
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Mentioning Oregon…If I were a terrorist, whether eco or jihadist in flavor, Portland OR, like it or not, is probably a pretty safe place to hang out.
 
Lisa N:
Brad responding to this post and your previous response to me. You are correct, it’s not just fear. I think one facet of Islam that is hard for us to understand is the loyalty to fellow Muslims rather than to a state. That is a reason Al Qaeda has had such success all over the world. The loyalty is not to a leader or a people or a country but to a religion and the common goal as expressed through the jihadists. They would turn against their countrymen to help “fellow” Muslims. We OTOH are very very nationalistic. We love and defend AMERICA rather than saying well we’ll defend Catholics or Methodists regardless of where they are and what they do. A completely different worldview exists in the Muslim world.

I’m not sure of your location but we had a similar situation here in Oregon. Actually SEVERAL Muslim organizations were operating and as with your experience, these were basically people ‘born and bred in the USA.’ But their loyalty was to an ideaology and not to their neighbors, their non-Muslim friends, co-workers or fellow citizens.

We are foolish to be oblivious to this very real difference.

Lisa N
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That is a very good point. I don’t know if I necessarily disagree with their approach. Our first loyalty is supposed to be to our faith. The basic difference is one of principles of the faiths. Up until now, it is has been very easy to be loyal to Catholicism and the United States with minimal contradiction. However, we are now being faced with more and more decisions of choice. Although not Catholic, Judge Moore was a classic example - he chose his faith - a true man of courage - but, in so doing, I believe he makes his country stronger.

I’m unsettled that so many Muslims follow a flawed ideology but I do respect their devotion to their faith. If only Catholics had such fervor - we’d have world peace. Someone in the Church once said (I think the Pope) that if 1/3 of the Catholics truly lived their faith, abortion would essentially end overnight.
 
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Brad:
Someone in the Church once said (I think the Pope) that if 1/3 of the Catholics truly lived their faith, abortion would essentially end overnight.
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Amen.

Maybe the Kings in the “Voting with their Feet” thread could use our prayers.
 
NightRider said:
:rotfl: Yup, I believe network news and media in general are biased, but not always just to the right! I believe the Left does attempt to push the knowledgeable Muslim Americans to the forefront, so to speak, but I just don’t think that network media is all that interested in these sorts of views, because these sorts of views don’t fit in all too well with the “military-industrial complex” that is the war against terrorism, which is what is being reported at this time. The news media does not wish to be viewed as soft on terrorists, even though reporting on Muslim Americans against terrorism would not in actuality soft on terrorists. There is the Palestine/Israel problem and most Muslims support the Palestinian desire for an independent state; the American news media never likes to show any support to an independent Palestine because that is perceived as anti-Israel and erroneously, anti-semitic. So–it is very difficult for our news media to spotlight the Muslims against terrorism because most of them support an independent Palestinian state, and the American media tends to view all Palestinians as terrorists.

Anyway, I have to sign off for now! Thanks for the exchanges! and God bless! 🙂
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Is Al Jazeera a good representation of what the majority of muslims think? I understand the message they’re putting out. I also disagree that the media is pushing an agenda that fits with the military industrial complex, that’s ridiculous. The network news would love to spotlight prominent american muslims that condemns terrorism to push an anti-military industrial complex agenda.

Peace.
 
When Kofi Annan speak so critically against countries like Sudan, Saudi Arabia or the same Morocco by the ilegal ocuppation of Western Sahara, that wants to invade the south of Spain, this man will have my respect, respect Islam, I prefer not to comment, greetings
 
Kofi cansay whatever he wants. I just believe we shouldn’t fund 25% of that crooked organization and I’d like to see how nice they think it would be having their headquarters in Paris.
 
:This is because the fundamental technique of evangelization to Christianity is peace:

Tell that to the people of northern and Eastern Europe forcibly converted in the early Middle Ages. Tell that to the pagans whom Justinian crucified in the sixth century. Tell that to the Hindus of Goa whose worship was suppressed by the order of St. Francis Xavier.

Edwin

P.S. I don’t disagree with the views being expressed here as totally as it sounds. In another forum, I’d express the other side too. Unquestionably the use of force is more central to Islam than to Christianity, and it’s ridiculous to claim that Islamic terrorists (or anyone else) are “misrepresenting” their own religion. We as Christians have no business deciding what is “true” Islam or not. We simply call it as we see it. And there’s clearly a spectrum of opinion within Islam, of which Bin Laden is one extreme and Westernized Muslims who totally reject religious violence are the other. I don’t say this often here because lots of other people are saying it. But I do think it.
 
Anyone here ever hear of Muslims worrying about being tolerent of Christians?
 
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