Four Cardinals Formally Ask Pope for Clarity on Amoris Laetitia

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Chipper said:
The church is the “pillar and foundation of truth”…Or supposed to be.

If Cardinal Burke is ostracized, then what happened to the pillar and foundation of truth"?
Cardinal Burke represents the Truth when he asked the questions. And there is a lot more wrong with AL then just the questions he asked. I think he was being polite in not raising all the questions - yet.

No sir for me, if they strip Cardinal Burke, then there is no longer any “Pillar and Foundation of Truth”…
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Chipper,
Let’s say the Pope has erred in this matter. If he has, and if he disciplines those who do not share in his error, why would that shake your faith in the Church? Popes have erred in the past, punished those who did not share in their error, and ultimately been corrected. John XXII comes to mind.
Note - I am not saying the Pope is in error…I’m speaking hypothetically.
 
Chipper said:
The church is the “pillar and foundation of truth”…Or supposed to be.
…
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the actual quote of Scripture is “pillar and foundation of the truth”.
(the definite article “the” is in the Greek)

a pillar of gold ( the pillar is made of gold)
is different than
a pillar of the gold (the pillar supports the gold)

in the same way:

Scripture tells us the church is to support the truth
but
Scriptures do not tell us the church is the truth.

Scripture tells us God’s word is the truth ; Jesus is the truth

Scripture tells us the Church (ekklesia) is to support God’s word and Jesus

I’m sure you want to quote Scripture correctly (because it matters)

thank you
 
esieffe said:
The Cardinals issued an ultimatum. Pretty bold and audacious. This is the response an ultimatum can evoke when the Cardinals flaunt their lack of obedience. [setting a poor example for countless others]
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What ultimatum did the cardinals issue? :confused:
 
Cardinal Pell, Bishop Schneider of Kazakhstan, and Bishops Wrobel and Watroba of Poland have all made statements in support of the 4 Cardinals.
 
Before this issue came to light, Cardinal Burke had an audience with the Pope. The audience was on Thursday, November 10, and the first stories about this list of “dubia” came out on the following Monday. I don’t think anybody can really say anything about ultimatums or the Pope being angry or Burke defying the Pope and deserving a reprimand or whatever, unless you know what transpired in that meeting.

As far as I know, nobody knows what happened except the two of them.

Dan
 
Don_Ruggero said:
As is indeed quite proper of the Dean of the Rota to articulate, given the office that is his.

For indeed, the offiicials who surround the Vicar of Christ in the various offices of administration of the Church at her highest level, and above all the curia, should be the ones to speak out with the very greatest of force and above all with the authority which was entrusted to them by the Pope…an authority which they exercise at the favour of as well as in the service of the Church’s visible head.
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On the other hand, perhaps Pinto, given his position, is the *last *person who should be making … “prejudicial” comments such as these.

Dan
 
LordHaveMercy said:
Pope Francis absolutely could do this and he would not have to give any explanation or answer any questions about it. He could laicize them as well, if he chose to do so.
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I don’t believe this is correct. Cardinals, bishops, and priests all have rights and protections under Canon Law.

see Canon Law espert Edward Peters’ article here.

catholicworldreport.com/Blog/5239/cardinals_in_the_church_have_rights_too.aspx
But assuming, against all precedent and common sense, that one’s publicly asking the pope to clarify important questions raised in the wake of his document amounts to canonical “grave cause” for stripping several prelates of their offices, it would still remain to honor at every stage of the removal process numerous canonical rights expressly guaranteed all the Christian faithful, including the ability to “defend the rights which they possess in the Church in the competent ecclesiastical forum”, the right to “be judged according to the prescripts of law applied with equity”, and the right “not to be punished with canonical penalties except according to the norms of law.” 1983 CIC 221.
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Don_Ruggero said:
No person in the Church – no one – has any authority whatsoever except by the gracious leave of the Vicar of Christ on Earth. Ultimately, the authority of His Holiness trumps every other office and every other premise of jurisdiction or governance.

From the Dean of the College of Cardinals and the Camerlengo of the Holy Roman Church to the newest baptised member, all owe the Pope filial submission and obedience.
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This is simply not correct Father.

Schismatic bishops have always retained the ability to vaildly ordain. Schismatic priests retain the ability to validly confect the Eucharist. The whole Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches have valid Sacraments, despite rejecting Papal authority many centuries ago. Bishops and priests have authority inherent in their holy offices.

I am gravely troubled by the idea that the Pope should be viewed as an absolute monarch who can rule by whim. Popes are not impeccable. They are only infallible under very limited circumstances when teaching on faith and morals in accord with what has always been held by the Church.

If a Pope was to act unjustly and dictatorially, against the Laws and Traditions of the Church, I believe he should be opposed, by bishops, clergy, and laypeople alike.

We have the precedent of Pope John XXII, who needed to be corrected in a matter of doctrine by a conference of theologians summoned by the French King, and accepted said correction, repenting of his heretical views before his deaths.

God Bless
 
twf said:
Chipper,
Let’s say the Pope has erred in this matter. If he has, and if he disciplines those who do not share in his error, why would that shake your faith in the Church? Popes have erred in the past, punished those who did not share in their error, and ultimately been corrected. John XXII comes to mind.
Note - I am not saying the Pope is in error…I’m speaking hypothetically.
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Yes I was aware of previous popes being corrected. And to be honest I just can’t seem to get my mind to settle on atheism. My insides started turning inside out after I said that.

So I reckon born a Catholic, I will die a Catholic.
 
No sir for me, if they strip Cardinal Burke, then there is no longer any “Pillar and Foundation of Truth”…
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The Church remains the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth.

That can never change.

It did not change when many Bishops embraced heresy during the Arian Heresy…or when there where Popes who did not live as Popes ought (in the deep past)…or when Judas betrayed Christ it will never Change.

Let us all frequently repent …go to confession and always hold fast to the Church of Jesus Christ - hold fast because it is his Church - hold fast to him the Lord.

One can do well to read Jimmy Akin on the document.
I will die a Catholic.
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Yes may we all do so - for in Jesus Christ is true life! In his Church we receive that life.

Let no one be tossed by* any *winds that may blow - our foundation is not this or that news story or this that event or this or that Cardinal - but Christ. And he built the Church on rock.
 
Chipper said:
No sir for me, if they strip Cardinal Burke, then there is no longer any “Pillar and Foundation of Truth”…
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Burke holds the foundation and pillar of Truth- not the Pope acting through the authority of Christ? Interesting.
 
Don_Ruggero said:
No person in the Church – no one – has any authority whatsoever except by the gracious leave of the Vicar of Christ on Earth. Ultimately, the authority of His Holiness trumps every other office and every other premise of jurisdiction or governance.

From the Dean of the College of Cardinals and the Camerlengo of the Holy Roman Church to the newest baptised member, all owe the Pope filial submission and obedience.
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Yes we do. He is the Vicar of Christ. And we owe him our prayers and respect. But is every sentence of AL to be understood as being infallible? Or is it wrong to think that the Church needs him to affirm that adulterous acts are intrinsically evil, and that one must be willing to avoid to avoid them if they want absolution and Communion? (Of course there may be great difficulties and falls, which can in turn be confessed and absolved, as one continues to will to keep the moral law.)
 
Chipper said:
If it were just the captain then I wouldn’t go. It would be because the majority of leaders and authority allowing it.
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Just to be clear, if the majority is large enough, is there any point at which you might think there is enough sense of the faithful guiding the Church, that you personally might be the one in error on this, or any other, topic? You stated that you believe the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth. Do you still believe this when you disagree, or do you judge the Church’s adherence to Truth based on you opinion and believe? It is only in areas that we disagree with the Catholic Church that our faith in the promise of Jesus has any meaning.

There are people who felt the same way you did about Vatican II (and Vatican I), and left. Heck, it has been happening all the way back to John 6.

The thing is, this should be a no-brainer. If we do not agree with what the Pope is suggesting, the discipline of receiving communion through a path other than that of a Tribunal, then simply don’t. This is one area where one is free to decline and back off.
 
Meanwhile, Bernard Cardinal Law still has a red hat and pension. Wouldn’t stripping one, let alone 4 Cardinals for questioning be a massive over reaction, considering the former is still to be honored with the title?
 
We need to realize that LA is a Magistarial document and when you attack it, you are attacking the two synods that went into creating it.
 
Chipper said:
If they strip Cardinal Burke, then I convert to “atheist” plain and simple.
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Wow. A faith dependant on the status of a fallen human being won’t get you very far for very long. :nope: And you’d go from having the fullness of faith to disowning God altogether? :confused:
 
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