Someone mentioned here that practices are being enacted apace. I think this is true, even to the point that based on postal code and diocese a couple may be told to live as brother and sister or that it isn’t necessary to live as brother and sister. Such a wonder to see such unity in practice and belief. It is possible that couples could be told what is or is not OK based on which side of the river they live on. ahh such unity in belief and practice!Given the debate we just had over similar questions on another thread (since closed) it would seem that they all require an answer. It seems especially important given the disagreement among the cardinals and bishops themselves. There is more confusion now than there was before AL was presented. Can anyone possibly think this is a good thing? I can’t accept that answering questions leads to confusion.
The lack of unity is an illusion from viewing people as “couples” as if all couples are in the same situation. Some couples have never been divorced. Why would they be treated as brother and sister. Some have received annulments. There is unity in belief and practice, but the practice is that all people be viewed as, well people, not categories. Yes, if you over categorize all people, then of course there will seem to be no unity. This happens in any situation. Not all speeders are treated the same. Not all Bostonians are treated the same, etc.. It is possible that couples could be told what is or is not OK based on which side of the river they live on. ahh such unity in belief and practice!
Indeed. I have known of dubia presented under now five pontificates where, under each Pope, the response was the same: not to respond to the dubium.The successor of Pope Francis will have the same choice: to respond, or not.
Dioceses and conferences, in fact, either already have in place or are putting in place the guidelines.This assumes that dioceses and conferences understand and comprehend what the Pope has taught and what needs to happen. This is not the case, as we have wildly divergent and mutually exclusive understandings of AL, even among Cardinals.
You seem to write this so blithely that I can only wonder how much have you dealt with the processing of dubia? Have you drafted for your bishop a dubium? Have you processed, as a diocesan official, dicasterial responses to dubia?If the questions are loaded, or are based on a faulty presumption, the Holy Father is free to point out how the question is loaded or why the presumption is faulty. He is free to respond with as many words as he sees fit and isn’t required to answer in a particular way.
His lack of response can in itself be taken in measure and weighed.
I’m unclear. Are you suggesting that if Pope Francis chooses to respond to this letter, he is restricted in how he responds to it? He would not be allowed to write out a lengthy response if he so choose? Who exactly would force this upon him? Who would force him to only answer yes or no?You seem to write this so blithely that I can only wonder how much have you dealt with the processing of dubia? Have you drafted for your bishop a dubium? Have you processed, as a diocesan official, dicasterial responses to dubia?
Their Eminences chose to use the formula of the dubia…that was their choice, with its attendant methodologies in terms of petition and in response.
His Holiness can freely choose to dismiss the petition. A dubium, by its nature, is the petition to one with our great authority…the greater authority is absolutely free to decline the petition.
They are putting in place guidelines that are wildly divergent and mutually contradictory. So couples in the situation described in the letter will be given a response and instructions in one diocese that will be completely different from the instructions and response in another diocese.Dioceses and conferences, in fact, either already have in place or are putting in place the guidelines.
No more and no less than in many other pastoral situations involving the sacraments.They are putting in place guidelines that are wildly divergent and mutually contradictory. So couples in the situation described in the letter will be given a response and instructions in one diocese that will be completely different from the instructions and response in another diocese.
This is manifestly evident from the fact that even Cardinals of the Church wildly disagree on the understanding of AL, and how to implement it. Their understanding and implementation are mutually exclusive.
It is actually quite simple: If you had been entrusted with the handling of dubia, at any level, then you would know the answer to your question.I’m unclear. Are you suggesting that if Pope Francis chooses to respond to this letter, he is restricted in how he responds to it? He would not be allowed to write out a lengthy response if he so choose? Who exactly would force this upon him? Who would force him to only answer yes or no?
As for your snide/sarcastic comments about drafting dubia, I’ll use my most charitable response and refrain from commenting on it.
The difference being of course that this is not merely a pastoral situation. It is a divergence over the interpretation of doctrine, as the questions presented to the pope make clear. As such there is one right answer, and those bishops whichever they be, who implement their guidelines improperly are in error. Moreover, those who err either confirm their congregants in sin, or needlessly prevent them from receiving the Eucharist. Either way, it seems that great - and entirely unnecessary - harm is done.No more and no less than in many other pastoral situations involving the sacraments.
Unfortunately none of this applies when the same couple could be given opposite instructions depending on which side of the river they reside, which is actually the situation that exists. How are we to react when a couple’s situation is a sin in (e.g.) Kansas City, Missouri, but not a sin in Kansas City, Kansas? Don’t minimize this situation. It’s real and it’s serious.The lack of unity is an illusion from viewing people as “couples” as if all couples are in the same situation. Some couples have never been divorced. Why would they be treated as brother and sister. Some have received annulments. There is unity in belief and practice, but the practice is that all people be viewed as, well people, not categories. Yes, if you over categorize all people, then of course there will seem to be no unity. This happens in any situation. Not all speeders are treated the same. Not all Bostonians are treated the same, etc.
Actually, it is much more routine than I suspect that you would imagine. Because we are in the realm of pastoral applications.Hi, Father. But if the Pope declines to answer, should we (meaning the Church and it’s Bishops) at least assume until told otherwise that the answers to questions 2 through 5 are yes?
Edit: I had the yes/no direction of the questions reversed in my head. Corrected now.
It seems that in the absence of clarity, particularly when a chance to offer clarity is declined, that the more conservative interpretation be favored.
I just want to add that I have defended AL at various turns here on these boards (not that it needs MY defense), but I find it disheartening that the Pope would decline this opportunity given how much even upper members of the Church have spoken of it being vague or unclear. I understand that this is probably more routine than I’m imagining, though.
Any pastoral situation and therefore any resulting pastoral action rests upon the foundation of doctrine. That is beyond basic.The difference being of course that this is not merely a pastoral situation. It is a divergence over the interpretation of doctrine, as the questions presented to the pope make clear. As such there is one right answer, and those bishops whichever they be, who implement their guidelines improperly are in error. Moreover, those who err either confirm their congregants in sin, or needlessly prevent them from receiving the Eucharist. Either way, it seems that great - and entirely unnecessary - harm is done.
You are correct and your insight is, as usual, well articulated.The lack of unity is an illusion from viewing people as “couples” as if all couples are in the same situation. Some couples have never been divorced. Why would they be treated as brother and sister. Some have received annulments. There is unity in belief and practice, but the practice is that all people be viewed as, well people, not categories. Yes, if you over categorize all people, then of course there will seem to be no unity. This happens in any situation. Not all speeders are treated the same. Not all Bostonians are treated the same, etc.
Then again, this only affects Catholics.
Yes it is. The point, however, being that if the doctrines are not understood the pastoral action may have no legitimate basis. How can you advise a person if you don’t know whether his actions are moral or immoral? Why would a person approach the confessional if he felt his actions weren’t sinful? How is he to know what is sinful if even the bishops disagree on the matter? How is any of this to be taken seriously if it appears to be based on nothing more than the personal opinions of this or that bishop? If the bishop on this side of the river says we must live as brother and sister while the bishop on the other side turns us loose am I free to select the instructions I prefer? Can I drive across the river, receive absolution, and then return to my side to receive communion? If the questions are not resolved the situation can only degenerate.Any pastoral situation and therefore any resulting pastoral action rests upon the foundation of doctrine. That is beyond basic.
Thanks for posting this. Here is just one of his assertions:*these five critical points have to do with irreformable moral principles. So we, as cardinals, judged it our responsibility to request a clarification with regard to these questions, in order to put an end to this spread of confusion that is actually leading people into error.Cardinal Burke on Amoris Laetitia Dubia: ‘Tremendous Division’ Warrants Action
m.ncregister.com/daily-news/cardinal-burke-on-amoris-laetitia-dubia-tremendous-division-warrants-action
You know very well that was not what I was talking about. I was referring to couples in exact similar situations being given exact opposite instructions based on where they reside. This is a reality whether you want to believe it or not. Certainly a couple could be told not to receive in one diocese only to simply seek out pastoral care “across the river” in a neighboring diocese that fits their personal desires.The lack of unity is an illusion from viewing people as “couples” as if all couples are in the same situation. Some couples have never been divorced. Why would they be treated as brother and sister. Some have received annulments. There is unity in belief and practice, but the practice is that all people be viewed as, well people, not categories. Yes, if you over categorize all people, then of course there will seem to be no unity. This happens in any situation. Not all speeders are treated the same. Not all Bostonians are treated the same, etc.
Then again, this only affects Catholics.