Four Cardinals Formally Ask Pope for Clarity on Amoris Laetitia

[commenter]

Inaccurate perceptions exist today as they did yesterday and will tomorrow…

True. But the amount of inaccurate perceptions is not a constant. There can be relatively few inaccurate perceptions in one decade, and far more in another decade.

Some inaccurate perceptions can come from poor catechesis or confusing messages at the parish. But other inaccurate perceptions come from higher levels.

Inaccurate or inconsistent perceptions greatly hurt evangelism. During the 1980s, for instance, St. John Paul II struggled to restore consistency of Catholic doctrine and pastoral practice, which had often been misperceived as inconsistent or disconnected. To a large extent, he succeeded. As a result of JP II’s actions, there was a significant wave of Protestants and others coming into the Church, and seminary enrollments began to turn around. The Church was a beacon of stability at a time when many denominations would float with the current of popular opinion and media.

 

[JimG]

What reasons could there be that they “can’t submit their case”?

This is key - "The Catholic Church presumes that every marriage is a valid union, and there must be sufficient grounds for declaring otherwise. "

lincolndiocese.org/tribunal/261-tribunal-questions-myths-about-annulments/3075-does-my-former-spouse-have-to-agree-to-a-declaration-of-nullity

There has to be “proof”. That’s what the article says.

A person may believe their former marriage was not valid, but the Church needs proof, not just someone’s belief that it was not.

If someone believes their marriage was not valid, but there is not proof, there can be doubt, and surely when something as serious as Communion is at stake, and the implications for the person who would receive Communion, if there can be doubt, it is not worth the risk.

A further consideration occurs to me. If in fact decisions as to nullity of a marriage are to be made in the “internal forum,” it seems to me that such a decision ought to be a matter of record in the parish sacramental registry. What if the other party to the prior marriage, even if they cannot be contacted now, has made a similar discernment resulting in an opposite decision? Then one has a marriage which is valid for one party and invalid for the other.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

What reasons could there be that they “can’t submit their case”?

Generally speaking the other spouse needs to be contacted, its actually their right by canon law. If the person has absolutely no idea where their former spouse is that is problematic.
Secondly, living in a different country from where you were married and everyone who knew you then is going to be a major problem when it comes to witnesses and their availability.

This is key - "The Catholic Church presumes that every marriage is a valid union, and there must be sufficient grounds for declaring otherwise. "

lincolndiocese.org/tribunal/261-tribunal-questions-myths-about-annulments/3075-does-my-former-spouse-have-to-agree-to-a-declaration-of-nullity

There has to be “proof”. That’s what the article says.

A person may believe their former marriage was not valid, but the Church needs proof, not just someone’s belief that it was not.

Yes, proof but getting it is sometimes extremely difficult due to circumstances. And the proof is simply evidence of what already is the actual truth.

If someone believes their marriage was not valid, but there is not proof, there can be doubt, and surely when something as serious as Communion is at stake, and the implications for the person who would receive Communion, if there can be doubt, it is not worth the risk.

Most people feel otherwise and its a major obstacle to evangelization. The idea of being prevented from a divine gift because of man made systems (i.e. the annulment system) angers some people.
Remember, the annulment does not dissolve the marriage, the annulment merely recognizes the reality that already exists.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Society has changed so much and divorce and remarriage has lost its stigma, but so has defacto relationships and same sex relationships.

Won’t admitting those who’s conscience doesn’t bother them to Holy Communion, further legitimise morality formed by society rather than by the Church?

What we’re dealing with here are still ideas that are well within Catholic moral language. The issue at stake isn’t whether sacramental marriage is indissoluble, it is. What is at stake is how to arrive at the truth in a way that allows people to fully live in the Church.

 

[patricius79]

What we’re dealing with here are still ideas that are well within Catholic moral language. The issue at stake isn’t whether sacramental marriage is indissoluble…

Why not, Father?

 

[_Abyssinia]

Generally speaking the other spouse needs to be contacted, its actually their right by canon law. If the person has absolutely no idea where their former spouse is that is problematic.
Secondly, living in a different country from where you were married and everyone who knew you then is going to be a major problem when it comes to witnesses and their availability.

Yes, proof but getting it is sometimes extremely difficult due to circumstances. And the proof is simply evidence of what already is the actual truth.

But if you try to find the spouse and can not, not being able to find the spouse doesn’t appear to be an absolute barrier because:

In the event the address of the spouse is unknown, this should be explained to the priest or deacon at the time the application is completed. While the current address of the former spouse may not be known, the address of a former spouse’s family member or a friend may be used. The Tribunal will seek the cooperation of the family member or friend to ensure the former spouse receives the correspondence. The formal application should provide the former spouse’s address or that of a relative or friend, who can ensure the non-petitioning party will receive our mailings.

arlingtondiocese.org/tribunal/faq.aspx#ContactRespondent

You comment about living in a different country, but today we have the internet and social media, and so many people today are more easily found than they used to be. It must of been very difficult for people to find their former spouse before the invention of the internet and social media etc. Obviously not everyone can be found through the internet, but although difficult, the former spouse needs to be tried to be contacted and this is the way the process has demanded.

Finding a spouse may be difficult, but that is the reality of the situation. While obviously sympathy is felt for the person trying to find their former spouse, Catholics of all stripes have their own difficulties in their own way.

If the spouse can not be found, and neither a friend or family member of the spouse, then I suppose there is not enough to go on with with the annulment process? That’s a tough situation, but it doesn’t mean their former marriage was not valid.

Most people feel otherwise and its a major obstacle to evangelization. The idea of being prevented from a divine gift because of man made systems (i.e. the annulment system) angers some people.
Remember, the annulment does not dissolve the marriage, the annulment merely recognizes the reality that already exists.

Father, with all due respect regarding your comment about it being “man made”, doesn’t the annulment process have a Biblical basis that has been expanded upon? The Bible obviously didn’t use the word “annulment”, but doesn’t the annulment process exist in the first place because of the implications of Jesus’ words regarding marriage in Matthew 19:9?

This post says:

In the passage where Jesus states “unless the marriage is unlawful” (Mt 19:9), Catholics believe He was referring to a situation where a marriage was never actually entered into in the first place

patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2016/08/biblical-evidence-for-annulments.html

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Why not, Father?

If you would have quoted what Father actually wrote as a full sentence, your question would be shown to be utterly absurd and nonsensical, since he already answered it.

This is what you quoted from the Priest:

What we’re dealing with here are still ideas that are well within Catholic moral language. The issue at stake isn’t whether sacramental marriage is indissoluble**… **

What he wrote:
The issue at stake isn’t whether sacramental marriage is indissoluble, it is.
I will add that a seminarian who tried such a tactic relative to a priest-professor would have been ejected for that.

 

[patricius79]

If you would have quoted what Father actually wrote as a full sentence, your question would be shown to be utterly absurd and nonsensical, since he already answered it.

This is what you quoted from the Priest:

What he wrote:
The issue at stake isn’t whether sacramental marriage is indissoluble, it is.
I will add that a seminarian who tried such a tactic relative to a priest-professor would have been ejected for that.

Hi Father,

I don’t follow you. I’m asking how one can claim that the issue is not the indissolubility of marriage.

I think that is certainly the issue. I know the Church teaches that someone in an irregular marriage must separate if at all possible, and definitely live in continence.

That is because marriage is indissoluble.

To argue–as has been argued or implied–that there are cases where someone in an irregular marriage may licitly have sexual relations, is contrary to indissolubility of marriage.

It is also contrary to the Ten Commandments, and thus to the salvation of souls.

Thankfully AL does not state that one in an irregular marriage may have relations, or that they may receive Communion if they are not living in continence and are not keeping the other requirements of the Church (as outlined in Familiaris Consortio; see also CCC 1650)

Peace of Christ in Mary,

Pat

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

But if you try to find the spouse and can not, not being able to find the spouse doesn’t appear to be an absolute barrier because:

arlingtondiocese.org/tribunal/faq.aspx#ContactRespondent

You comment about living in a different country, but today we have the internet and social media, and so many people today are more easily found than they used to be. It must of been very difficult for people to find their former spouse before the invention of the internet and social media etc. Obviously not everyone can be found through the internet, but although difficult, the former spouse needs to be tried to be contacted and this is the way the process has demanded.

Finding a spouse may be difficult, but that is the reality of the situation. While obviously sympathy is felt for the person trying to find their former spouse, Catholics of all stripes have their own difficulties in their own way.

In an ideal world where people have that kind of information its possible, yes. For many people in the modern mobile world the idea of trying to track down in another country your ex’s relatives that you haven’t seen/spoken to in 20 something years is a bit daunting and, of course, doesn’t guarantee their cooperation.
To many it comes across as a extremely tall order and greatly discourages them.

The internet, social media, etc. are not used by everyone everywhere in the world especially people in some of the poorer areas. We take many things for granted in the USA and Western Europe. Canon Lawyers for decades have complained about how onerous the annulment system is for people from the 3rd world. As canonist Edward Peters has noted:

America functions. Much of the rest of the world does not.

American tribunals keep sufficient and reliable office hours, their telephones work, their mail is delivered on time, and if their photocopy machine breaks down, replacement parts are not six months away. Most of the parties and witnesses in an American nullity case will be able to drive to the tribunal in their own car on a paved road without hindrance by anything from fuel shortages to partisans in civil wars. In an almost incalculable and invisible number of ways, American Catholics have the leisure-in the classical sense of the word-to worry about their juridic status in the Church.

If the spouse can not be found, and neither a friend or family member of the spouse, then I suppose there is not enough to go on with with the annulment process? That’s a tough situation, but it doesn’t mean their former marriage was not valid.

It doesn’t mean it was, either. That’s the problem to be solved. The current tribunal system is not a matter and form sacrament that was hand delivered to us by Jesus, it is a changeable and malleable system that the Church adapts to circumstances.

The point is to arrive at the truth of a particular situation, not the method that’s used to get there.

 

[CaptFun]

ewtn.co.uk/news/holy-see/dean-of-roman-rota-warns-pope-could-strip-dubia-cardinals-of-their-cardinalate

This is about as shocking as it gets.

I know. Not only do I respect Cardinal Burke for a multiplicity of reasons, but …

… the words “Pope” and “could strip” … are way too close together in this headline per my tender sensibilities.

If the media sneaking subliminal images into our minds is bad … this blatant faux pas is valde malus.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I know. Not only do I respect Cardinal Burke for a multiplicity of reasons, but …

… the words “Pope” and “could strip” … are way too close together in this headline per my tender sensibilities.

If the media sneaking subliminal images into our minds is bad … this blatant faux pas is valde malus.

I think it’s misunderstanding the " mercy pope" to even suggest this is the thing that would happen. This pope has been one of the most vocal about dialogue and building bridges etc.

I do think though that this matter will take years to sort out even though the answer is quite simple and can only be one thing. Such is the way if our world.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Hi Father,

I don’t follow you. I’m asking how one can claim that the issue is not the indissolubility of marriage.

I think that is certainly the issue. I know the Church teaches that someone in an irregular marriage must separate if at all possible, and definitely live in continence.

That is because marriage is indissoluble.

To argue–as has been argued or implied–that there are cases where someone in an irregular marriage may licitly have sexual relations, is contrary to indissolubility of marriage.

It is also contrary to the Ten Commandments, and thus to the salvation of souls.

Thankfully AL does not state that one in an irregular marriage may have relations, or that they may receive Communion if they are not living in continence and are not keeping the other requirements of the Church (as outlined in Familiaris Consortio; see also CCC 1650)

Peace of Christ in Mary,

Pat

The Church is for sinners not the perfect. Alcoholics, liars, philanderers, etc do not deny the Commandments though they may be in a state of weakness whereby they regularly fail.
Many in irregular marriages, regardless of the past rights and wrongs, are often in a stable relationship with dependent children, the previous marriage is irretrievable…putting them also in a position of weakness insofar as they cannot be expected to separate though they would obey the Church if they could and it truly was the best thing for them to do.
Why does this unfortunate situation intrinsically necessitate they deny the indissolubility of marriage and do not in fact repent of their ongoing “sin”?

In some cases of irregular marriage there may be no prior bond before God anways…but for purely technical reasons a Tribunal has been unable to recognize that likely reality.

 

[_Abyssinia]

In an ideal world where people have that kind of information its possible, yes. For many people in the modern mobile world the idea of trying to track down in another country your ex’s relatives that you haven’t seen/spoken to in 20 something years is a bit daunting and, of course, doesn’t guarantee their cooperation.
To many it comes across as a extremely tall order and greatly discourages them.

The internet, social media, etc. are not used by everyone everywhere in the world especially people in some of the poorer areas. We take many things for granted in the USA and Western Europe. Canon Lawyers for decades have complained about how onerous the annulment system is for people from the 3rd world. As canonist Edward Peters has noted:

It doesn’t mean it was, either. That’s the problem to be solved. The current tribunal system is not a matter and form sacrament that was hand delivered to us by Jesus, it is a changeable and malleable system that the Church adapts to circumstances.

The point is to arrive at the truth of a particular situation, not the method that’s used to get there.

Despite the difficulties in say certain parts of say for example, Africa, to get access to find the former spouse for an annulment case to documents, I haven’t heard from many Catholic Bishops from Africa saying they want Communion for the divorced and remarried because of such difficulties. And these Bishops come from parts of the world where it must be far more difficult to locate a former spouse etc. than it is from the West. Most of the proponents I’ve heard for Communion for the divorced and remarried come from the West, not from other parts of the world.

 

[_Abyssinia]

The Church is for sinners not the perfect. Alcoholics, liars, philanderers, etc do not deny the Commandments though they may be in a state of weakness whereby they regularly fail.
Many in irregular marriages, regardless of the past rights and wrongs, are often in a stable relationship with dependent children, the previous marriage is irretrievable…putting them also in a position of weakness insofar as they cannot be expected to separate though they would obey the Church if they could and it truly was the best thing for them to do.
Why does this unfortunate situation intrinsically necessitate they deny the indissolubility of marriage and do not in fact repent of their ongoing “sin”?

In some cases of irregular marriage there may be no prior bond before God anways…but for purely technical reasons a Tribunal has been unable to recognize that likely reality.

This Congregation For The Doctrine Of The Faith letter actually referenced the situation of a couple not separating because of the children and is viewed a a situation where the couple should be abstinent:

when for serious reasons, for example, for the children’s upbringing, a man and a woman cannot satisfy the obligation to separate, they ‘take on themselves the duty to live in complete continence, that is, by abstinence from the acts proper to married couples’"(8). In such a case they may receive Holy Communion as long as they respect the obligation to avoid giving scandal.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_14091994_rec-holy-comm-by-divorced_en.html

 

[gilliam]

In an exclusive interview with Crux, Jesuit papal confidant and director of the journal La Civiltà Cattolica, Father Antonio Spadaro SJ, takes issue with the tone and tactics of social media critiques of the pope and directly responds to the four cardinals who have publicly criticized Amoris Laetitia

cruxnow.com/interviews/2016/12/04/jesuit-close-pope-says-many-attacks-amoris-result-bad-spirit/

I was going to quote some sections but decided that one really needs to read it all.

 

[Brendan]

Despite the difficulties in say certain parts of say for example, Africa, to get access to find the former spouse for an annulment case to documents, I haven’t heard from many Catholic Bishops from Africa saying they want Communion for the divorced and remarried because of such difficulties. .

I have some experience here.

As mentioned in other threads, I do regular mission work in a rural diocese in Tanzania, several weeks each year.

When I am there, I stay at the residence of the local bishop, and consider him to be a good friend.

That said, Africa is continent, not a country, and conditions vary widely.

But in East Africa, there is FAR less mobility than you would encounter in the US or even Europe. It is very unusual for a person to move far. And even then the family connections are stronger than you find in the US. A sister or brother would know where their sibling is living and how to contact them. In war torn areas, such as the DRC, northern Niger, or Sudan, all bets are off there.

What has traditionally been lacking are Tribunals. It is a matter of resources, these diocese are VERY poor. In the one that I go to, the average family income is about $500 per year. So the diocese itself as a whole has less income than a working class family in the US. So they are not exactly overflowing with spare JCDs to staff a tribunal.

There also hasn’t been as strong of a need, as divorce rates are generally lower. People will stay in bad marriages.

Where the big interest is with the Africa bishops is in regards to polygamy. When a polygamous family converts, the Church instructs the family that the man and the first wife are married, other wives are now sisters to them both. No negotiation. If there is an intent to remain polygamous, then the family is simply not received into the Church until such a point as the family agrees to abide by Church teachings. Some other Christian denominations will let the man choose which wife he remains married to, the Catholic Church does not.

Where this factors into the debate we are having is that the African bishops envision themselves having to explain why whites in the US and Europe can have sex with their second wife and still receive Holy Communion, while they cannot., or, in the case of the internal forum, why whites are allowed to choose which wife to be married to, and they are not.

 

[commenter]

In an ideal world where people have that kind of information its possible, yes. For many people in the modern mobile world the idea of trying to track down in another country your ex’s relatives that you haven’t seen/spoken to in 20 something years is a bit daunting and, of course, doesn’t guarantee their cooperation.
To many it comes across as a extremely tall order and greatly discourages them.

The internet, social media, etc. are not used by everyone everywhere in the world especially people in some of the poorer areas. We take many things for granted in the USA and Western Europe. Canon Lawyers for decades have complained about how onerous the annulment system is for people from the 3rd world. As canonist Edward Peters has noted:

It doesn’t mean it was, either. That’s the problem to be solved. The current tribunal system is not a matter and form sacrament that was hand delivered to us by Jesus, it is a changeable and malleable system that the Church adapts to circumstances.

The point is to arrive at the truth of a particular situation, not the method that’s used to get there.

The insight from the 3rd world POV is important to keep in mind. But also to keep in mind that all of St. JP II’s formation and priesthood was spent under conditions of brutal war, massive populations of displaced persons and separated families, then decades of an atheistic government that did everything possible to destroy the family, destroy parishes, and destroy dioceses, and push industrialization.

Since much of the recent teaching on marriage and family comes from this man, it helps to consider that his thinking was not molded in some idyllic, stable, old time village.

 

[_Abyssinia]

I have some experience here.

As mentioned in other threads, I do regular mission work in a rural diocese in Tanzania, several weeks each year.

When I am there, I stay at the residence of the local bishop, and consider him to be a good friend.

That said, Africa is continent, not a country, and conditions vary widely.

But in East Africa, there is FAR less mobility than you would encounter in the US or even Europe. It is very unusual for a person to move far. And even then the family connections are stronger than you find in the US. A sister or brother would know where their sibling is living and how to contact them. In war torn areas, such as the DRC, northern Niger, or Sudan, all bets are off there.

What has traditionally been lacking are Tribunals. It is a matter of resources, these diocese are VERY poor. In the one that I go to, the average family income is about $500 per year. So the diocese itself as a whole has less income than a working class family in the US. So they are not exactly overflowing with spare JCDs to staff a tribunal.

There also hasn’t been as strong of a need, as divorce rates are generally lower. People will stay in bad marriages.

Where the big interest is with the Africa bishops is in regards to polygamy. When a polygamous family converts, the Church instructs the family that the man and the first wife are married, other wives are now sisters to them both. No negotiation. If there is an intent to remain polygamous, then the family is simply not received into the Church until such a point as the family agrees to abide by Church teachings. Some other Christian denominations will let the man choose which wife he remains married to, the Catholic Church does not.

Where this factors into the debate we are having is that the African bishops envision themselves having to explain why whites in the US and Europe can have sex with their second wife and still receive Holy Communion, while they cannot., or, in the case of the internal forum, why whites are allowed to choose which wife to be married to, and they are not.

Thanks for providing some insight.

Cardinal Napier has brought up the issue of polygamy into the debate regarding Communion to the divorced and remarried. He said in an interview (video at link):

“For us in Africa I think the situation is going to be: look, if people in Europe who have remarried—as somebody put it today, they are engaged in successive polygamy—why can’t a simultaneous polygamist have the same advantages? After all, in his culture it is quite acceptable for him, it’s natural…so he has no conflict of conscience about accepting Christ and living in polygamy at the same time.”catholicworldreport.com/Blog/3417/watch_cardinal_napier_on_communion_and_polygamy.aspx

Cardinal Francis Arinze was also talked about polygamy and the Communion situation in an interview:

Some African bishops have said that if the Church makes a change on Communion for the divorced and remarried, some people living in polygamous relationships might ask why that can’t be done for them, too. Is that a concern you would share?
Yes. It’s not a bad argument, because the polygamous could say, “Look, my own situation is better than that of these other fellows who threw out their first wife and got another one. I didn’t throw out the first one, she remains, and I only took on a second one. God even tolerated polygamy in the Old Testament!”
We have to look for another way to ensure compassion for those who are in difficulty. You don’t solve a headache by cutting off the head

 

[commenter]

In an exclusive interview with Crux, Jesuit papal confidant and director of the journal La Civiltà Cattolica, Father Antonio Spadaro SJ, takes issue with the tone and tactics of social media critiques of the pope and directly responds to the four cardinals who have publicly criticized Amoris Laetitia

cruxnow.com/interviews/2016/12/04/jesuit-close-pope-says-many-attacks-amoris-result-bad-spirit/

I was going to quote some sections but decided that one really needs to read it all.

I wish people would stop labelling themselves, or getting tagged as “papal confidant”. I have seen a number of persons labelled as “papal confidant”, invariably they write books or get written up in articles, always with a picture of them and the pope together. Back in the 1990s ****lots ****of people claimed to be FOB (Friends of Bill Clinton), which got them lots of money and media access. I think the total ran into the hundreds of FOBs.

How many papal confidants are there? 10, or 50, or what? Is a “papal confidant” someone the pope was friends with 30 years ago? Someone the pope played golf with, or sends Christmas cards to, or the pope’s spiritual director? I don’t know how to evaluate this man’s opinions, or how much he conveys, or not conveys, the pope’s opinions.

The important thing to keep in mind is that he does not work for the pope, and many other people do, including Cardinal Burke.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Despite the difficulties in say certain parts of say for example, Africa, to get access to find the former spouse for an annulment case to documents, I haven’t heard from many Catholic Bishops from Africa saying they want Communion for the divorced and remarried because of such difficulties. And these Bishops come from parts of the world where it must be far more difficult to locate a former spouse etc. than it is from the West. Most of the proponents I’ve heard for Communion for the divorced and remarried come from the West, not from other parts of the world.

Africa isn’t the only relatively poor part of the world. The current annulment system is actually a very large problem in Latin America, thus Pope Francis’ concern regarding this matter. Latin America struggles with the current system because so many people move around so much and communication between locations is not always easy.
I deal with Latin American immigrants who look at me like I have 10 heads when I ask them if they have any idea where their former spouse is living or any relatives that could be contacted. Until the recent media coverage of Pope Francis saying he wants to simplify the system they used to just walk away after hearing what an annulment entailed and not come back. Now they have hope their situations can be resolved…