Four Cardinals Formally Ask Pope for Clarity on Amoris Laetitia

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"n the new interview, Spaemann says that Catholics should trust the teaching of Scripture and the Church, which the dubia defend. He quotes St Peter’s words to Jesus, when Jesus asks if the disciples will abandon Him: “To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”

If the “dead” “teaching” of Scripture and the Church is ultimately only correctly interpreted by the authority of a living successor of Peter then Catholics should perhaps trust the authoritative teachings of the current Peter.

Given that Jesus is no longer bodily present to guide His Church directly perhaps Mr Spaemann would have done better to quote Jesus’s words to Peter rather than the other way around, “You are Peter and on on this rock I will build my Church.”
Is it not true that any successor of Peter also bound by Scriptures, Tradition, the Magisterium and the teachings of the successors of Peter before him? Is it not also true that a key responsibility of any cardinal is to assist the pope in matters of Church governance which includes clarifying confusions in Church teachings? Hypothetically, can any successor of Peter break loose from the responsibility of his office?
 
Blue Horizon,

what about all the previous Peters? Are we dismissing them now? Does this not go against the very point of having the magisterioum? Papolatry is a real problem these days. The pope is not God. He has a job to do - to preserve the faith and not mess things up. This has been the job of all popes in history, and still is today.
 
If you do not agree
Agree to what? My own question? One generally agrees or disagrees with answers, not questions. And a question is what I offered.
I suggest looking up a good commentary on the Catechism where it deals with “invincible ignorance” even after adequate attempts at formation have been made.
Prummer may be helpful also, though I only operate from memory as I no longer have his book.
What you seem to be proposing is that an ignorant conscience be considered to be a ‘good’ one. Or that one that has been attempted to be formed, but remains in ignorance is a good one.

Why would ignorance be a good thing?

I did read through the CCC on conscience, including the sections you recommended, I and did not see anything where the Church declared either an ignorant conscience nor an erroneous conscience to be good. If you could point out something specific, I am sure we can discuss it.

The CCC never refers to an erroneous conscience as a good one ( 1790), in fact it could not be, since it has the potential to lead to condemnation (1790), goodness cannot lead to just condemnation.

Because of that, your statement: “One may still be in “good conscience” even if that conscience is erroneous provided one has taken the trouble to inform oneself.” does not logically follow.

Thus I wonder how you consider an error to be a good.

I did review the CCC, as you suggested, and found no support for any Church teaching where an ignorant conscience, nor an errornous conscience, is considered to be good by the Church. I do not have copy of Plummer, but also reviewed Vertias Splendor and Pope Benedict’s work. I was unable to find any support of what you claim. Could you offer specific citations?
 
Then-Cardinal Ratzinger’s work “On Conscience” defines a good conscience as one where the Divine Law written upon our hearts, the “anamnesis”, and the conscience of the intellect ( conscientia), enlightened by Faith and Reason, are in harmony, that the intellect truly sees the Divine Law written upon the soul…

So, where can error be injected and have the conscience remain good? Certainly not in the Divine Law, that is not subject to error.

One can certainly come to a Judgement of conscience on matters that lack any of the elements described by then-Cardinal Ratzinger, such as Faith, or an enlightened intellect, but that cannot be considered a good judgement from a good conscience.

Thus, Blue, I still fail to see how your statement: “One may still be in “good conscience” even if that conscience is erroneous provided one has taken the trouble to inform oneself.” can be correct.
 
Blue Horizon,

what about all the previous Peters? Are we dismissing them now? Does this not go against the very point of having the magisterioum? Papolatry is a real problem these days. The pope is not God. He has a job to do - to preserve the faith and not mess things up. This has been the job of all popes in history, and still is today.
I don’t think a previous pope can bind a current pope on issues of discipline. Even a long-standing discipline. It remains a discipline, not a sacred cow. AL does not change doctrine, as even a quick reading will show.

Is not the elevation of a discipline to the status of doctrine not a form of idolatry in itself? Doctrine is God-breathed, but discipline is man-made.
 
I don’t think a previous pope can bind a current pope on issues of discipline. Even a long-standing discipline. It remains a discipline, not a sacred cow. AL does not change doctrine, as even a quick reading will show.

Is not the elevation of a discipline to the status of doctrine not a form of idolatry in itself? Doctrine is God-breathed, but discipline is man-made.
We are talking about the sacraments and mortal sin here. Jesus made things very clear. People don’t have the right to mess with that.
 
MODERATOR NOTE

I have merged a number of threads on the topic of the four letters.

Please keep your discussion to this thread and keep it charitable.
 
I don’t think a previous pope can bind a current pope on issues of discipline. Even a long-standing discipline. It remains a discipline, not a sacred cow. AL does not change doctrine, as even a quick reading will show.

Is not the elevation of a discipline to the status of doctrine not a form of idolatry in itself? Doctrine is God-breathed, but discipline is man-made.
I agree, but the question that remains: The Church has traditionally required a penitent to recognize that a penitent have a resolve to not commit sin again as a required part of a valid absolution.

Would you consider that to be a matter of disciple or of doctrine?
 
The Process:
The Church issues ambiguous statements…that are then endlessly proofread…that are then clarified…then the clarifications are scrutinized…then clarifications are commented on, endlessly …then the feedback by cardinals, bishops, etc is evaluated, denounced, glorified, demonized, etc…more clarifications…“friends of the pope” do media blitzes…

What’s **not **happening when the Church is obsessed with endless self-examination?

Evangelism…engaging the secular culture…addressing the culture of death…fighting for restoration of Reason…

all put on hold
 
The Process:
The Church issues ambiguous statements…that are then endlessly proofread…that are then clarified…then the clarifications are scrutinized…then clarifications are commented on, endlessly …then the feedback by cardinals, bishops, etc is evaluated, denounced, glorified, demonized, etc…more clarifications…“friends of the pope” do media blitzes…

What’s **not **happening when the Church is obsessed with endless self-examination?

Evangelism…engaging the secular culture…addressing the culture of death…fighting for restoration of Reason…

all put on hold
Evangelism is ongoing. Is it possible that those who are agonizing over these things on the internet are stuck in a bubble? The rest of the Church might be going about it’s business.
 
We are talking about the sacraments and mortal sin here. Jesus made things very clear. People don’t have the right to mess with that.
No, we are talking about the sacraments and grave matter. That is the nuance. In AL, the Holy Father states that there may be circumstances where due to lack of knowledge, or freedom of the will, the penitent is not culpable of mortal sin. That is a doctrine of the Church. Why would you think it wouldn’t apply to “adultery” in the situation of a long-standing second union? Would you equate such a union (say by an abandoned spouse with children) with that of a man or woman having an adulterous affair with a co-worker?
I agree, but the question that remains: The Church has traditionally required a penitent to recognize that a penitent have a resolve to not commit sin again as a required part of a valid absolution.

Would you consider that to be a matter of disciple or of doctrine?
Doctrine. But see above. The three conditions for mortal sin are also doctrine. This surely also applies to adultery. Again, we are not talking about someone actively cheating on a spouse they continue to be married to and live with.

It does happen, when confessing ongoing grave matter, that the priest will tell the penitent that they are not culpable of mortal sin because an ongoing extenuating circumstance and need not re-confess every time it happens. The CCC gives examples of these possible circumstances in the case of sexual sin.

We are talking, again, about the pastoral application of the doctrine on grave sin, to individual circumstances. We are not talking about a “get out of jail free” card.
 
No, we are talking about the sacraments and grave matter. That is the nuance. In AL, the Holy Father states that there may be circumstances where due to lack of knowledge, or freedom of the will, the penitent is not culpable of mortal sin. That is a doctrine of the Church. Why would you think it wouldn’t apply to “adultery” in the situation of a long-standing second union? Would you equate such a union (say by an abandoned spouse with children) with that of a man or woman having an adulterous affair with a co-worker?

Doctrine. But see above. The three conditions for mortal sin are also doctrine. This surely also applies to adultery. Again, we are not talking about someone actively cheating on a spouse they continue to be married to and live with.

It does happen, when confessing ongoing grave matter, that the priest will tell the penitent that they are not culpable of mortal sin because an ongoing extenuating circumstance and need not re-confess every time it happens. The CCC gives examples of these possible circumstances in the case of sexual sin.

We are talking, again, about the pastoral application of the doctrine on grave sin, to individual circumstances. We are not talking about a “get out of jail free” card.
s always, an excellent assessment. 👍
 
No, we are talking about the sacraments and grave matter. That is the nuance. In AL, the Holy Father states that there may be circumstances where due to lack of knowledge, or freedom of the will, the penitent is not culpable of mortal sin. That is a doctrine of the Church. Why would you think it wouldn’t apply to “adultery” in the situation of a long-standing second union? Would you equate such a union (say by an abandoned spouse with children) with that of a man or woman having an adulterous affair with a co-worker?
How is it that a Catholic in an irregular second marriage lacked either “knowledge” or “freedom of will” when they began the relationship?

I cannot see how your interpretation could be reconciled with Church doctrine. Is it that what was once the grave sin of adultery evolved? This would represent a radical change of doctrine.
 
I don’t think a previous pope can bind a current pope on issues of discipline. Even a long-standing discipline. It remains a discipline, not a sacred cow. AL does not change doctrine, as even a quick reading will show.

Is not the elevation of a discipline to the status of doctrine not a form of idolatry in itself? Doctrine is God-breathed, but discipline is man-made.
Given the nature of the five questions the cardinals presented to the pope, the issue is clearly doctrinal; it is not merely a question of discipline. Discipline may be the application of doctrine in individual circumstances, but if the doctrines are not understood how can they be applied?

Ender
 
How is it that a Catholic in an irregular second marriage lacked either “knowledge” or “freedom of will” when they began the relationship?
They might not have been practicing Catholics at the time, and wish to now return to the Church. They could have been baptized as an infant but their parents did not go through with their Catholic education. They are still, in such a case, Catholic even though they would have received very little instruction in the faith. The possibilities are nearly endless, which is why a “one size fits all” solution is not the answer.
I cannot see how your interpretation could be reconciled with Church doctrine. Is it that what was once the grave sin of adultery evolved? This would represent a radical change of doctrine.
I cannot see how any interpretation that says that “adultery” in cases of the D&R is always “mortal sin”.

That would place this sin in a particular category.

That cannot be reconciled with Catholic doctrine on sin.
 
Given the nature of the five questions the cardinals presented to the pope, the issue is clearly doctrinal; it is not merely a question of discipline. Discipline may be the application of doctrine in individual circumstances, but if the doctrines are not understood how can they be applied?

Ender
They seem to think it is.

It is up to them to prove it, if they are questioning the Holy Father.

Other cardinals, clearly, think differently.
 
For whatever it’s worth, I suspect Pope Francis is not answering the 4 Cardinals because he believes that no two situations are alike and he’s not going to get pigeonholed into giving a definitive Yes or No answer.
 
How is a person in a second, invalid marriage, supposed to make a decision to receive communion? Does he acknowledge that he is currently in a sexual relationship with someone who is not his spouse, but that is okay for some reason? Does he decide that the first marriage is not valid regardless of what a tribunal may or may not have said? Or does he simply rely on ambiguity as his best friend?
 
They might not have been practicing Catholics at the time, and wish to now return to the Church. They could have been baptized as an infant but their parents did not go through with their Catholic education. They are still, in such a case, Catholic even though they would have received very little instruction in the faith. The possibilities are nearly endless, which is why a “one size fits all” solution is not the answer.
There is this from AL:

“In some places, it has also been proposed that in order objectively to examine their actual situation, the divorced and remarried would have to consult a prudent and expert priest.** This priest, however, would have to respect their eventual decision** to approach Holy Communion, without this implying an official authorisation.” (emphasis added)

This is plainly and clearly a “one size fits all” solution.

To understand why adultery is a grave sin, it is helpful to remember the other spouse.
I cannot see how any interpretation that says that “adultery” in cases of the D&R is always “mortal sin”.

That would place this sin in a particular category.

That cannot be reconciled with Catholic doctrine on sin.
Is adultery then only sometimes a mortal sin? How is it that this interpretation does not conflict with Church doctrine?
 
I cannot see how any interpretation that says that “adultery” in cases of the D&R is always “mortal sin”.

That would place this sin in a particular category.

That cannot be reconciled with Catholic doctrine on sin.
The church has called any number of sins intrinsically evil. Your question is whether there are situations where a person may intentionally commit a grave, intrinsically evil act, and it not be accounted as a grave sin.*…some authors have proposed a kind of double status of moral truth. Beyond the doctrinal and abstract level, one would have to acknowledge the priority of a certain more concrete existential consideration. The latter, by taking account of circumstances and the situation, could legitimately be the basis of certain exceptions to the general rule and thus permit one to do in practice and in good conscience what is qualified as intrinsically evil by the moral law. A separation, or even an opposition, is thus established in some cases between the teaching of the precept, which is valid in general, and the norm of the individual conscience, which would in fact make the final decision about what is good and what is evil. On this basis, an attempt is made to legitimize so-called “pastoral” solutions contrary to the teaching of the Magisterium, and to justify a “creative” hermeneutic according to which the moral conscience is in no way obliged, in every case, by a particular negative precept. (JPII, Veritatis Splendor)
Given that the fifth question the cardinals asked was specifically directed to this section of Veritatis Splendor (#56), which addresses the question you asked, it would seem that clarification would be a good thing. How is this not a doctrinal question?
…does one still need to regard as valid the teaching of St. John Paul II’s encyclical “Veritatis Splendor” n. 56…
*Ender
 
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