Fr. Cutie to Become an Episcopal Priest

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Not that there’s anything wrong with that. (cf. Jerry Seinfeld)
LOL Peter, nothing at all wrong with that. But as I said, anybody who knows me from around here, knows I have never hidden that I was Catholic. It would make little sense to keep the same “name” would it? Assumptions are dangerous things. I know from experience.
 
Great posts here, finally, more than one has put someone in their place. 👍👍
Gosh and just how did I know that you would enjoy this so much? I don’t think your supposed to at least as I read the bible, but you go girl…Hey throw a party in honor of seeing more than one person tee off on Spirit! But alas, it’s been done before. Blessings dear.
 
Sorry for this late reply,

in the case of Fr. Cutie, since his is not in communion with his bishop who gave him his power to consecrate the sacraments, there is no way we can tell if the intent and the form he has is the same intent and intent when he consecrate the host on the Anglican church or in any case (in this thread discussed baptism). This is a very different case if he just marries the girl then self exile and continue to be priest rather than joining a church in which in the eye of the Catholic church has no grace.

some would say: Even Atheist can validly perform a baptism why couldn’t he? Only valid in special cases specified by the catholic church, You see. when an Atheist decided to baptize an infant “motu proprio”, in that instant he ceases to become atheist and begin to believe in God. Also in cases of heretics like the Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons, Even if they use water and say I baptise you in the name in the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, the Catholic Church said that their baptism is Invalid.

In the case of Fr. Cutie, he is making a mockery of the Catholic church at this moment and we do not know his real intention. therefore i said the sacraments he conferred is invalid, unless of course, he repent to this bishop and ask his dispensation to confer sacraments on the Anglican church for the purpose of providing valid baptism.

for your other questions, the Eucharist of RC and EO or OO is the same. I cannot speak for others like Old catholics etc.
I agree, though I would have thought the appropriate term would be valid sacraments. Would you say then that on that respect, there is no distinction between the Orthodox Eucharist, and the RC Eucharist? If, as has been suggested above and as your post seems to suggest to me, the faculties constitute the sacramental authority, and not the indelible character imposed on the priest by ordination, is there any distinction, as to validity, licitness, or effectiveness, to be drawn between an Orthodox sacrament and that of the RCC? How about other schismatics, such as the Utrecht Old Catholics (assuming valid minister).

I am not an advocate of Fr. Cutie, who seems to be a ninny. Just curious, on this subject.

GKC
 
Sorry for this late reply,

in the case of Fr. Cutie, since his is not in communion with his bishop who gave him his power to consecrate the sacraments, there is no way we can tell if the intent and the form he has is the same intent and intent when he consecrate the host on the Anglican church or in any case (in this thread discussed baptism). This is a very different case if he just marries the girl then self exile and continue to be priest rather than joining a church in which in the eye of the Catholic church has no grace.

some would say: Even Atheist can validly perform a baptism why couldn’t he? Only valid in special cases specified by the catholic church, You see. when an Atheist decided to baptize an infant “motu proprio”, in that instant he ceases to become atheist and begin to believe in God. Also in cases of heretics like the Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons, Even if they use water and say I baptise you in the name in the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, the Catholic Church said that their baptism is Invalid.

In the case of Fr. Cutie, he is making a mockery of the Catholic church at this moment and we do not know his real intention. therefore i said the sacraments he conferred is invalid, unless of course, he repent to this bishop and ask his dispensation to confer sacraments on the Anglican church for the purpose of providing valid baptism.

for your other questions, the Eucharist of RC and EO or OO is the same. I cannot speak for others like Old catholics etc.
Thank you for your response.

GKC
 
Last night, a priest, interviewed on THE WORLD OVER, EWTN, said no priest in the history of theRoman Catholic Church has been allowed to marry. There are those who had wives and became priests but no man once a priest has been allowed to marry.

Because of the differences between the Episcopal Chruch doctrines and Roman Catholic, I don’t know how he can embrace it. I would imagine if he stayed Roman Catholic, he would not be able to receive the sacraments but could attend Mass.
Some of the Apostles were married, Peter included. There is reason to believe that married priests were fairly common in the early Church. Celibacy became normative relatively late in the history of the Church, though it was widely practiced especially in the Western, or Latin, rite of the Church.

I think you are correct that priests were rarely if ever, allowed to marry once ordained. Remember that the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholics have married priests, and that the RCC sometimes accepts into it’s priesthood, married clergy from other groups. I do not believe that, if such married clergy lose their wives, they are permitted to remarry.

If Fr. Cutie returned to the RCC, he would have to be formally laicised to have the decree of excommunication lifted and before he could receive any of the sacraments except–if in danger of death–extreme unction (the “Last Rites”).
 
GKC:

A discussion took place several months ago regarding one Marek Bozek; a priest of St. Stanislaus, in St. Louis MO; who has been formally excommunicated and laicised by the RCC. (The entire parish has been excomunicated, over issues concerning property rights which are too involved to elaborate on here). Bozek has since sought to be admitted to one of the several Old Catholic/autocephalous independent Catholic churches.

In any case, the discussion regarding that priest turned up the tidbit that priests, by virtue of their indelible mark of priesthood, retain their ability for life to confect the Eucharist and to perform Extreme Unction in case of emergency. To consecrate the Eucharist without permission of a Bishop would be illicit but invalid; to perform Extreme Unction, in case of emergency, with no other priest available, would always be both licit and valid.

In any case: the priest’s faculties in these two cases are never removed, even if the priest is an overt renegade who has been duly excommunicated and laicised. .

Apparently however, the faculties to hear confessions, and to perform marriages, are rightly possessed only by the bishop or other ordinary to whom the priest owes allegiance. The ability of an excommunicated or laicized priest to perform those sacraments, therefore, is removed once they have defected from the authority of their bishop.

Confirmation and Holy Orders, of course, normally are done by the Bishop anyhow, and only by special dispensation can a priest perform Confirmation.

I don’t have references to back this up, but perhaps a check of threads on St. Stanislaus and/or “Fr.” Marek Bozek (the laicized, renegade priest I mentioned earlier) would turn up some information which would be helpful.
 
To consecrate the Eucharist without permission of a Bishop would be** illicit but invalid**; to perform Extreme Unction, in case of emergency, with no other priest available, would always be both licit and valid.
Flameburns - your surrounding dialag suggest that you made a typo here. Did you mean instead to say illicit but valid?

James
 
GKC:

A discussion took place several months ago regarding one Marek Bozek; a priest of St. Stanislaus, in St. Louis MO; who has been formally excommunicated and laicised by the RCC. (The entire parish has been excomunicated, over issues concerning property rights which are too involved to elaborate on here). Bozek has since sought to be admitted to one of the several Old Catholic/autocephalous independent Catholic churches.

In any case, the discussion regarding that priest turned up the tidbit that priests, by virtue of their indelible mark of priesthood, retain their ability for life to confect the Eucharist and to perform Extreme Unction in case of emergency. To consecrate the Eucharist without permission of a Bishop would be illicit but invalid; to perform Extreme Unction, in case of emergency, with no other priest available, would always be both licit and valid.

In any case: the priest’s faculties in these two cases are never removed, even if the priest is an overt renegade who has been duly excommunicated and laicised. .

Apparently however, the faculties to hear confessions, and to perform marriages, are rightly possessed only by the bishop or other ordinary to whom the priest owes allegiance. The ability of an excommunicated or laicized priest to perform those sacraments, therefore, is removed once they have defected from the authority of their bishop.

Confirmation and Holy Orders, of course, normally are done by the Bishop anyhow, and only by special dispensation can a priest perform Confirmation.

I don’t have references to back this up, but perhaps a check of threads on St. Stanislaus and/or “Fr.” Marek Bozek (the laicized, renegade priest I mentioned earlier) would turn up some information which would be helpful.
I thank you very much. I do recall this case, but the idea of a connection had not occurred to me. This is approximately what I had thought was generally true, based on study of the concept, from a slightly different perspective, over some years. Other posters here have brought forward some contrary opinions that cause me to scratch my head, and I’m continuing to do so.

Fortunately, no one and nothing is dependent on my reaching the correct conclusion. But I’m going to keep pondering and digging around, and this is a place to look. .

Again, I thank you, and the others.

GKC
 
He’d have to both admit his error, appeal to the pope for laicization, wait for that permision, and give up public ministry.

He’s apparently unwilling to do that last item.
Maybe his girlfriend is pregnant. A baby won’t wait on the Pope to be born.
This is why priests should be allowed to marry.
 
don’t think I’ve rendered an opinion on Buddhist priests. I have not looked into the matter.

==================
When my sister was in the hospital after her third stroke a friend of mine sent her
her name to a group of Buddhist priests requesting that they pray for her.

I was grateful and touched by my friend’s concern.

So was my sister.

Sis is out of the hospital now and trying to regain her abilities.
 
Flameburns - your surrounding dialag suggest that you made a typo here. Did you mean instead to say illicit but valid?

James
Yes. My bad. Sorry. illicit but valid. Oh–and for any Roman Catholic, gravely sinful to knowingly receive, receive, except for certain very rare circumstances.

Thanks for the correction.
 
Maybe his girlfriend is pregnant. A baby won’t wait on the Pope to be born.
This is why priests should be allowed to marry.
Priests will never be allowed to marry. They are Apostle’s from Christ. Priests know this before they are ordained. Such a sacrifice for Christ. Bless them, they are the umbilical to God.
 
I did some more research on the history of Apostolicæ Curæ .

Here is an interesting read from USCCB:
Anglican-Roman Catholic Dialogue in the United States 1990

There was a real desire to reunite Anglicans in Leo XIII’s time. He in fact gave his cardinals and advisors a mandate to go find the evidence for proving “Anglican orders valid”. Alas, his advisors kept running into the “evidence” - the evidence proved they lost their apostolic succession. There was a definate 10 year period where even if the rogue Catholic Bishop that was compelled to ordain the Anglican bishops selected by the King with Holy Orders their ordinal rites were bogus due to the defect in the mass rites and beliefs. The Anglicans denied the sacrificial aspect of The Mass and that KILLED it right there - since this was a violation of Catholic Dogma. Pope Leo XIII sent them back 2 times to recheck - but the data was definitive each time.

So Pope Leo XIII wrote Apostolicae Curae to make it a “done deal” - Anglican’s have no Holy Orders. They invalidated themselves in multiple ways - rejecting core aspects of the mass as well as losing spiritual authority.

James
 
Now, when the Fr. Cutie accepts ordination in the ECUSA as a deacon and then as a priest, he will be committing heresy.
He’ll be committing schism, not heresy. One “holds to” heresies; one does not “commit” them. 😉

I don’t doubt that he will also hold to a number of heresies, as well. But it’s interesting that he still wants to be considered a priest. Perhaps there is still a flickering flame of faith, there.
 
After Vatican II there was honest attempt to open non-polemic dialog between Anglicans and Catholics that had promise of bearing much fruit. But from my perspective it looks to me like Anglican and derivatives have completely “poisoned the pot” by permitting female ordinations since original talks were opened. That act in and of itself COMPLETELY preempts and invalidates a priesthood if ever there was one in and makes it IMPOSSIBLE to reconcile with The Catholic Church. This would remain true even if new evidence were present to warrant re-considering opening a new papal ruling on the matter. Female ordinations by Anglicans/Episcopalians has forever shut the door to regaining valid matter and form and authority.

James
 
After Vatican II there was honest attempt to open non-polemic dialog between Anglicans and Catholics that had promise of bearing much fruit. But from my perspective it looks to me like Anglican and derivatives have completely “poisoned the pot” by permitting female ordinations since original talks were opened. That act in and of itself COMPLETELY preempts and invalidates a priesthood if ever there was one in and makes it IMPOSSIBLE to reconcile with The Catholic Church. This would remain true even if new evidence were present to warrant re-considering opening a new papal ruling on the matter. Female ordinations by Anglicans/Episcopalians has forever shut the door to regaining valid matter and form and authority.

James
I agree.

GKC
 
Priests will never be allowed to marry. They are Apostle’s from Christ. Priests know this before they are ordained. Such a sacrifice for Christ. Bless them, they are the umbilical to God.
Of course, in certain circumstances, the church currenly allows married priests.
 
He’ll be committing schism, not heresy. One “holds to” heresies; one does not “commit” them. 😉

I don’t doubt that he will also hold to a number of heresies, as well. But it’s interesting that he still wants to be considered a priest. Perhaps there is still a flickering flame of faith, there.
No, He’s ALREADY committed schism.

By accepting reordination he’s making an act that declares either
(1) his Catholic Ordination was invalid
or
(2) Ordination to the deaconate and to the priesthood is not a permament change.

Either is heresy.
 
The history given at the site linked is accurate; it’s a good article, though it differs with Clark on an important point . And, given that I have read Clark, and Hughes, cited in the footnotes, as well as a dozen other sources, including a good article by R. WIlliam Franklin, in ANGLICAN ORDERS, ESSAYS ON THE CENTENARY.OF APOSTOLICAE CURAE 1896-1996, nothing in it is new to me. But you’ve got the wrong idea. There was no great mandate to prove Anglican orders valid, from Leo. And certainly no desire from most the RC hierachy (Rampolla excepted) for reunion. Esp. not reunion in any form other than individual submission: this was Cardinal Vaughan’s firm position. And the Commission, in the form it took, and in the course it followed, was Cardinal Vaughan’s offspring.

Here’s the first few paras I wrote on the subject, in another discussion:

**It began with a chance meeting on the island of Maderia in 1890, of a British nobleman, Charles Lindley, Second Viscount Halifax, and a young French priest, the Abbe Portal. Halifax was a fervent and saintly Anglo-Catholic, of the type referred to as “Anglo-Paplist” (which is sort of an Anglo-Catholic on steroids). The two became friendly, and began to converse on various matters. Eventually Halifax and Portal reached a conclusion that it would be a good thing to try to do something about that little matter of the 17th chapter of John. What might be done to achieve reunion of Christendom? Specifically, what might be done to heal the split between Rome and the CoE? They talked it over. The game plan was to pick a topic which might permit of mutual discussion between the Churches, and see if they could get anyone to come and reason together. IN was a modest plan, for a daunting goal. But maybe if each side learned a little of the other, something might happen. And both sides were in remarkable ignorance of each other. Couldn’t hurt. In fact, it was a fore-runner of the system set up 70 years later by Pope Paul VI and the Archbishop of Canterbury, Michael Ramsey, the Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission. That group is more or less useless today, but it began with great hopes and in the spirit of what Halifax and Portal hoped for back then.

Early in 1892, Portal suggested that a good topic to raise for possible discussion was Anglican orders. He was optimistic that it would be a good starting point. Halifax was not, but in 1893/1894, Portal published a little paper anyway, in LA SCIENCE CATHOLIQUE, under the pen name of F. Dalbus, in 1893-1894. concluding that Anglican Orders were probably invalid, citing a suspicion of Barlow’s intention in consecrating Parker in 1559, but suggesting that the point should be discussed.

It has to be emphasized that for both Portal and Halifax, the question of Anglican orders was a means to an end, to initiate talks between theologians of each church. And his little paper got a good reception, particularly from the Abbe Duchesne, and some chatter began. Other papers appeared. RCs and Anglicans were interested, from their respective traditions, in talking. And in 1894, Portal was summoned to Rome, for an audience with Cardinal Rampolla, the Vatican Secretary of State, who took Portal to see His Holiness, Leo XIII. Leo was interested in talks on the subject, as Portal was suggesting… Suggestions were made about letters from the Vatican to the CoE, suggesting talks. Leo agreed, but then wanted it to come from Rampolla. Still, things were looking good, so far. The letter was written, Sep, 1894.

Didn’t continue, though. Back in England, Archbishop Benson, the Archbishop of Canterbury was cool to the idea (the Archbishop of York, the other primate of the CoE was more positive). And, fatally, the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster, the chief RC prelate in the country, was far from cool toward it. He was red hot opposed. **

I’m going to run out of space. Cardinal Vaughan briefed by Portal on 2 visists to England as to what he and Halifax has discussed in Rome, was livid. In Jan 1895, he went to see Leo. The details of that visit, in which he completely mis-represented Portal and Halifax and what they were doing (no one wanted Rome to make a decision on Anglican orders. That was merely the subject Portal had chosen to start talks on moving the two Churches closer) can be found beginning on p.69 of Hughes book, heavily footnoted.

Leo was greatly disturbed by Cardinal Vaughan’s inaccurate ( to say the least) version, and let himself be led by the Cardinal into calling a RC commission (rather than suggesting joint lalks a la the ARCIC, which is what Portal and Halifax were after) to study two salient points about Anglican orders, neither of which was “Go prove them valid”. What was asked was “Had there been a consistent policy toward Anglican orders, since Henry’s day?” and " if so, should that policy continue, or be changed?"

And it was the form of the ordination, not the Mass rites, that was involved.

Bottom line:

That’s a good article. excellent, over all.

No one asked Rome to make any judgment on Anglican orders. That was the work of Cardinal Vaughan, who was determined that what Portal and Halifax had started had to be stopped. I strongly urge you read Hughes’ book. It is the best and most detailed history of what went on available.

GKC
 
No, He’s ALREADY committed schism.

By accepting reordination he’s making an act that declares either
(1) his Catholic Ordination was invalid
or
(2) Ordination to the deaconate and to the priesthood is not a permament change.

Either is heresy.
As Anglicans normally receive RC priests in their orders, I can’t imagine there are plans to reordain him, that not being something Anglicans believe in either.

Is anything definitive known about the plans?

GKC
 
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