Fr. James Martin

[27lw]

(cont’d)

If an LGBQT person enters the Church (in spite of the harsh language) he or she is entering to begin a conversion process. From personal experience I know that entering the Church thinking you are already converted, is wrong-headed. Eventually you will fall flat on your face as your inclinations catch up to you. It leads to a bitter dark night of the soul, but eventually you come to understand why God had to send a redeemer.

I guess your definition of “entering the Church” is unclear to me. What do you mean by “enter the Church”? Attend Mass, go to Confession, etc? Fully partake of all the sacraments?
You write:
“From personal experience I know that entering the Church thinking you are already converted, is wrong-headed.”

It seems to me that “entering the Church” fighting against basic teaching like “you have to be in a state of grace to receive the sacraments (except Reconciliation)” itself is wrong-headed.
For instance, it took me eight years to enter the Church as I was reading, learning, and attending RCIA a total of three different years. That was my beginning a conversion process. I didn’t formally join the Church, and then figure out afterward where I disagreed with it, or was offended by it, or insulted by it. I figured that out first, decided whether the Church was speaking truth, then joined the Church.
I realize what you are saying - - if people feel so hurt and offended that they are immediately turned off, then they will never get close enough to discover the Church. I can see that using language more delicately might help that early discovering process. What are they going to do when they read the Bible? They’re not going to be too happy with that, I would guess. If the Church says one thing, and the world says another, then I know which one I am going to follow.
I also want to apologize, I know I have come across as combative. I’m sure you and your daughter are both lovely people who are genuinely struggling with these issues. I think we all have different struggles at different times as well. As long as we’re progressing toward sainthood is the main thing! :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

 

[OraLabora]

Just to be clear I’m cradle Catholic and a revert after a long time away. I reverted 23 years ago.

Also to be clear, I’m talking about people outside the Church either reverting, or converting.

If you tell (or mistakenly give the impression) gays that they have to become perfectly chaste first before reverting or converting, it will be a lost cause. I get one needs to be in a state of grace for the Eucharist.

But how will they get into that state if they’re scared away from the Church and not even have access to Reconciliation?

 

[Bill_B_NY]

How can a priest who is trying to lead his flock off a cliff, not be reprimanded for it? . . .

The idea of reprimanding wayward clergy has fallen by the wayside for the most part. There are many reasons this has happened.
The clergy scandals we all saw are part of this pattern. There is an unwillingness to call out the person and require them to stop, or especially to give penalties for bad behavior or disobedience. This is more true on the liberal side, since there is a belief that liberal-progressive Catholicism is “basically right” with some minor variations here and there. This is because, in general, liberalization has been rewarded and sometimes made official. Traditional practices are shunned and forgotten.
We have other clergy like Fr Martin - so he has a lot of fans. He’s promoting gay marriage – as other priests do.
I’m old fashioned. I think God is going to punish them and us for all of this. Maybe it is even happening right now with what we see in the world.
It’s frustrating and difficult for faithful Catholics - and for many of our shepherds who want something better than this.
The belief also is if we tolerate sin, then the sinner will see that we are friendly and will eventually come along the right way. We do the same with false religions.
That’s been the belief. That’s the experiment.
We’ve tried it a long while.
I think the experiment has failed.

 

[27lw]

Just to be clear I’m cradle Catholic and a revert after a long time away. I reverted 23 years ago.

Also to be clear, I’m talking about people outside the Church either reverting, or converting.

If you tell (or mistakenly give the impression) gays that they have to become perfectly chaste first before reverting or converting, it will be a lost cause. I get one needs to be in a state of grace for the Eucharist.

But how will they get into that state if they’re scared away from the Church and not even have access to Reconciliation?

Well, how does anyone dare to approach the Church? Whether a convert or revert? Everyone is a sinner and can figure out that the Church thinks they are a sinner, and have to change certain behaviors and ways of looking at things. Everyone has to go to Reconciliation if they are converting or reverting. Not just gay people. Everyone is expected to live chastely, which may mean celibacy, depending on their state of life.
How are other people not scared away? Those who like to do other sins?

Why do you say:
“If you tell (or mistakenly give the impression) gays that they have to become perfectly chaste first before reverting or converting, it will be a lost cause.”

Why can other people be expected to be perfectly chaste (including the expectation that ALL non-married people should be celibate), but not gays? What are you implying about gay people? They cannot be chaste / celibate? Why not? I’m sure some are, or try to be. I thought that’s what the whole Courage organization is about. Have you been in touch with them?

 

[Bill_B_NY]

They don’t have to be morally perfect before becoming a Catholic but we can’t hide the fact that sexual sins have to stop and be repented. I think the same thing happens for young couples who live together then want to be married in the Church. Their pastor has a difficult time telling them they have to separate and be chaste.

 

[OraLabora]

Why can other people be expected to be perfectly chaste (including the expectation that ALL non-married people should be celibate), but not gays? What are you implying about gay people? They cannot be chaste / celibate? Why not? I’m sure some are, or try to be. I thought that’s what the whole Courage organization is about. Have you been in touch with them?

What I say can apply to everyone, not just gays. But this thread is about gays, not the divorced and remarried, heterosexuals in irregular marriages, etc.

I was a heterosexual in an irregular marriage when I returned to the faith. I was fortunate that the first priest I encountered did not expect me to turn things around on a dime. Eventually, and it took some years, I was able to convince my wife to have our marriage convalidated.

I can only wish gays are shown the same compassion and understanding.

The goal is to save souls, not frighten them away from the source of salvation, Christ.

 

[27lw]

Okay, you found a priest 23 years ago who was compassionate and understanding. You yourself say that it took years to fix issues that you personally had.

Why do you assume:

People approaching the Church today won’t also find approachable, compassionate and understanding priests?

People aren’t willing to work and take time to fix their irregular situations?

I guess it’s begging the question of whether the priest just let you take Communion, etc. You don’t have to tell us of course. But you were willing to work it out, why do you assume that people today (gay or straight) are not?

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

instead of using sacraments as medicine to help overcome sin, we’re using them as a reward for the righteous.

The Sacrament of Confession is always open to the sincere.

 

[Mark121359]

I can only wish gays are shown the same compassion and understanding.

The goal is to save souls, not frighten them away from the source of salvation, Christ.

Are you saying that priests and religious are not showing compassion and understanding towards gays? That their interactions with these people is frightening them away and thus jeopardizing their souls???

That’s a new one on me!

 

[OraLabora]

Are you saying that priests and religious are not showing compassion and understanding towards gays?

I have no idea. I am not gay so I can’t speak for their experiences. I can say that in my view, the wording in the CCC is not likely to entice them into a Catholic church.

The Sacrament of Confession is always open to the sincere.

You seem to have missed my point. Confession is only open to Catholics. So if the wording in the CCC turns gays away from being evangelized, baptized and confirmed, or turns away lapsed Catholics from returning to the faith, how are they going to get to confession?

 

[27lw]

Mark121359:

Are you saying that priests and religious are not showing compassion and understanding towards gays?

I have no idea. I am not gay so I can’t speak for their experiences. I can say that in my view, the wording in the CCC is not likely to entice them into a Catholic church.

The Sacrament of Confession is always open to the sincere.

You seem to have missed my point. Confession is only open to Catholics. So if the wording in the CCC turns gays away from being evangelized, baptized and confirmed, or turns away lapsed Catholics from returning to the faith, how are they going to get to confession?

Well, I would hope that lapsed Catholics would know they can go to Confession. Assuming they want to.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

So if the wording in the CCC turns gays away from being evangelized, baptized and confirmed, or turns away lapsed Catholics from returning to the faith, how are they going to get to confession?

That’s their decision so I wouldn’t say that their exclusion was because they were unworthy.
But things in the Catechism can be reworded to mean the exact same thing in a different way.

 

[OraLabora]

Assuming they want to.

That’s my whole point: many LGBQT don’t want to because of “Church teaching” as it is worded in the CCC.

In Montreal, BTW, St-Pierre-Apôtre parish in the Gay Village is open and inclusive, all LGBQT are welcome to the Lord’s Table regardless of their situation. It is run by by the Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate. So there are some places in the Church that are on the same wavelength as Fr. Martin.

http://www.saintpierreapotre.ca

(sorry website is in French only).

 

[AlNg]

all LGBQT are welcome to the Lord’s Table regardless of their situation.

Does that mean that SS marriage is no longer thought to be sinful ?

 

[Polak]

Does that mean that SS marriage is no longer thought to be sinful ?

Good question. What does LGBT people being ‘welcome to the Lord’s Table’ mean? That they can attend mass? That’s fine. Of course they can. That they can go to communion while being in an LGBT relationship? Not fine. That they should flought their gay relationship in Church? Also not okay.

So there are some places in the Church that are on the same wavelength as Fr. Martin.

I’m reading a lot about how unwelcoming the Church supposedly is to gay people. I’m also seeing you write about how it isn’t about saying it isn’t sinful, but about using more delicate language. What I haven’t seen you do is put forward a convincing case as to how what Fr. Martin is doing is okay (since you have so much praise for him). I’ve given numerous examples in this thread of things he has said, and it isn’t just being gently, he’s actually promoting and in one case I would even say, willing sin to happen (with the ‘soon to be husband’ comment).

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I am beginning to question though, the Church’s overall teaching on sexuality

Then I would respectfully suggest you stop public preaching in the name of the Church.
For the safety of your own soul and anybody you may lead astray who were trusting you and depending on you.

 

[OraLabora]

I’m not preaching I’m giving an opinion.

Maybe in light of the sexual scandals, the Church should stop public preaching on the issue?

On the other hand, maybe she has. I haven’t heard a homily on sex in about a decade…

 

[Polak]

I get the impression you have either muted me or are deliberately ignoring the question I put to you, to explain away some of Fr. Martin’s comments on LGBT issues. It might be that you can’t, but despite that are quite happy to continue saying that we need more people like him.

in light of the sexual scandals, the Church should stop public preaching on the issue?

Riiiiight the sexual scandals, which for the most part were committed against boys and young men. Another fact you will notice the mainstream media never touch.

 

[27lw]

27lw:

Assuming they want to.

That’s my whole point: many LGBQT don’t want to because of “Church teaching” as it is worded in the CCC.

In Montreal, BTW, St-Pierre-Apôtre parish in the Gay Village is open and inclusive, all LGBQT are welcome to the Lord’s Table regardless of their situation. It is run by by the Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate. So there are some places in the Church that are on the same wavelength as Fr. Martin.

http://www.saintpierreapotre.ca

(sorry website is in French only).

Oh I can see it in English too. There’s a tab at the bottom of the page to choose French or English.
Is this parish in union with the diocese? Or is it some kind of independent church?

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Maybe in light of the sexual scandals, the Church should stop public preaching on the issue?

I think I know what you’re getting at, but in light of the severe sexual and interpersonal brokenness of our society, the Church needs to stand up and preach the Truth.

And it needs to get its own house in order.

These two don’t have to be mutually exclusive.