Fr. Pavone on the use of graphic images of abortion

[vern_humphrey]

If an underage girl is not capable of giving consent to have sex, then neither is an underage boy and everytime a teenage boy and girl have sex the Girl should be charged with statuatory rape. You see, when you put the shoe on the other foot yo usee how silly your position is.

How do we know the boy is underage? We sweep the whole thing under the table when we simply abort the girl and throw her back into the same environment.

As I pointed out, about one third of “boys” who get underage girls pregnant are significantly older than the girls.

 

[East_and_West]

How do we know the boy is underage? We sweep the whole thing under the table when we simply abort the girl and throw her back into the same environment.

As I pointed out, about one third of “boys” who get underage girls pregnant are significantly older than the girls.

My point is that we cannot just go around assuming that every girl that gets preagnant is a victim. Often she has made a free will decision in the matter and is just as responsible. I agree that if overage men do have sex with a minor that their should be legal consequences. However, if it is another minor, then I don’t think that there should be.

 

[whatevergirl]

My point is that we cannot just go around assuming that every girl that gets preagnant is a victim. Often she has made a free will decision in the matter and is just as responsible. I agree that if overage men do have sex with a minor that their should be legal consequences. However, if it is another minor, then I don’t think that there should be.

Except if she is signing legal documents on her own at these clinics…(meaning suing the clinic, not speaking of civil suits against individuals, unless there is clearcut abuse/rape)

When you think about it, why can a minor make this decision to have an abortion, and wouldn’t be able to get a cavity filled, without her parents/guardians knowing? I agree, that an underage boy should not be sued, if two teens are consenting (to whatever that may mean for them at their age) in a relationship. However, if the girl wants to raise the child, the boy’s family will be held responsible…this is already a law in many states. Something teens should think about…if you can’t handle the consequences of a baby (which no teen can) on your own…then, don’t have sex. (in addition to moral reasons)

 

[melensdad]

My point is that we cannot just go around assuming that every girl that gets preagnant is a victim. Often she has made a free will decision in the matter and is just as responsible.

Actually be definition of many state laws, in many states she may legally be defined as a victim because she may not be of age to make that choice. State laws vary.

 

[whatevergirl]

Is an underage boy given the same rights?

 

[vern_humphrey]

My point is that we cannot just go around assuming that every girl that gets preagnant is a victim.

Would you say that we cannot just go around assuming that every every person we find dead in an alley with his head bashed in is a victim?

Or would you say we should investigate each and every such case?

Often she has made a free will decision in the matter and is just as responsible.

She** can’t** legally “make a free will decision in the matter.”

I agree that if overage men do have sex with a minor that their should be legal consequences. However, if it is another minor, then I don’t think that there should be.

And how do we know, if we don’t investigate?

But when the girl is whisked into the abortion clinic and then thrown back into the same environment, there is no investigation.

 

[East_and_West]

Would you say that we cannot just go around assuming that every every person we find dead in an alley with his head bashed in is a victim?

Or would you say we should investigate each and every such case?

She** can’t** legally “make a free will decision in the matter.”

And how do we know, if we don’t investigate?

But when the girl is whisked into the abortion clinic and then thrown back into the same environment, there is no investigation.

Do you then believe that a boy cannot legally make a free will decision in the matter?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Do you then believe that a boy cannot legally make a free will decision in the matter?

There are some female school teachers doing serious prison time on that very issue.

But you are missing the point – we don’t **know **who got little Suzie pregnant. And we’ll never know – because she was whisked off to an abortion mill.

And when she reaches majority, she has a right to sue over that.

 

[bmmckinney]

A little piece of my prolife talk I have put together and why it is rediculous to argue against showing the truth about abortion:

**If you do not support CBR’s methods I ask you, is there any place that you wouldn’t object to viewing these images? Let’s be honest: you’d much rather not see this at all. You’d like these images to be “out of sight” because then they would be “out of mind.” And that’s the problem: precisely because the horrible truth of abortion is out of most people’s minds this injustice is happening. The reality is that while you drive in your car, are sitting at work, and even here tonight, babies are being killed. As long as society tolerates this injustice, society will see what it looks like by those who wish to stop that injustice.

If you care so much about children, where is your care and concern for the lives of over 1 million unborn children who are killed each year across the US? If you were walking down the street with a 2-year-old and saw a 5-year-old being killed in front of you, would you complain about your 2-year-old being exposed to the injustice, or would you intervene to stop the injustice?**

 

[bmmckinney]

To start off this photo: markharringtonlive.com/gallery/album33/aaq
show’s a parent perfectly willing and able to show these photos to her child, perhaps we should look to her as a role model as well.

On Fr. Pavone… he’s a great Catholic and real hero for unborn babies. I recently put the talk of the group he works with into a full length movie and am finishing uploading it to youtube today. If you are interested in seeing what he supports check out:
youtube.com/profile?user=cbrinfo

Note: as soon as you see Part 1 available for watching it is completely uploaded.

Thanks… btw DVD’s available of this talk, pm me for info.

Bryan

 

[KarenNC]

I can see absolutely no reason whatsoever to not show pictures of the realities of what goes on in our world. I cannot fathom how a child no less anyone else could possibly be marred or damaged from seeing such. It is an irrational fear that to say a 5 year old child who sees a picture of an aborted baby will withdraw into oblivion and be socially damaged. I would happen to believe the people who have the hardest time are those who were not exposed early on and always believed the world to be nothing, but warmth and fuzz.

From Vern Humphrey:
If you feel your child isn’t ready for something like that, get him ready – or keep him away from signs. The idea that other children should be deprived of something that would benefit them is simply not tenable.

It is being claimed in this and other threads that exposure of young children (preschool to early elementary ages) to graphic images of dead and mutilated babies is not only okay, but actively to be desired. In fact, if a parent is even to suggest that their child would not benefit from seeing such images, they are accused of actively depriving them of something crucial and beneficial.

If this is indeed the best possible way to inform young children about the sanctity of life, certainly Catholic groups, being prolife, would want to give their children the best possible and most effective form of education in their own schools, superior even to the one that they are more than willing to give to other children by showing these images on the public streets. They have the perfect opportunity to not only expose the children to these images as early as possible, but to have in-depth discussions from a specifically Catholic viewpoint so that there is no question that the message is received in exactly the way that these groups claim is the most effective. I would expect to see pro-life Catholics actively demanding such a curriculum in their own schools for their own children, beginning at minimum in kindergarten, because, of course, the earlier the better.

In googling “Catholic pro-life curriculum schools,” I have found the following cpforlife.org/id105.htm, a pro-life curriculum designed by the Catholic organization Knights for Life (which was mentioned on another thread). Their purpose statement includes (my emphasis):

"Being honest about the root causes of this tragic situation we are in is critical if we hope to affect a substantial change. … The sad reality is that the duration of the abortion holocaust is prolonged by Catholics who vote for pro-abortion candidates.
This can only end with a new generation of Catholics fully educated on the sanctity of Life before birth. Ignorance sustained by denial is crippling this nations response to the holocaust of abortion. …Part of our problem stems from the truism “out of sight-out of mind”. "

They offer a pro-life curriculum designed for Catholic schools from pre-K through 12th grade. It is on the website in its entirety. Note that the first mention of even the word “abortion” comes in 6th grade. That is, when the children are 11-12, not when they are 5.

This curriculum is also suggested by the Christian Patriots for Life for use in other Christian schools cpforlife.org/. They refer to it as “comprehensive” and say "Few would argue that it is much harder to change the minds of adults than it is to properly form the minds of children, especially in matters of morality. Only by finally addressing this problem and moving to correct it can we begin to change our culture and our laws. "

I also find the Diocese of London’s pro-life education program designed to begin at 5th grade. rcec.london.on.ca/2007-2/school_prolife.htm Interestingly, the course description doesn’t mention discussion of abortion at all.

Here’s one from the Catholic Schools Office of the Diocese of Erie:
eriercd.org/pdf/schools/religcurr.pdf. Abortion is not mentioned until the 8th grade.

Discussions of abortion, much less graphic images of such are evidently not considered appropriate as part of a specific and comprehensive pro-life religious Christian education until 5th grade or later.

What this tells me is that while some pro-life Catholics and other Christians are willing to impose such education on very young children (preschool and early elementary) whose families happen to drive by or otherwise encounter their graphic signs and materials, they are not willing or interested in providing exactly that same information to their own children in their own schools at the same ages.

If there are Catholic schools who are indeed including discussions of the specifics of abortion, either including graphic images of mutilated dead babies or not, at the kindergarten level, I would be interested in seeing how they do so.

 

[vern_humphrey]

It is being claimed in this and other threads that exposure of young children (preschool to early elementary ages) to graphic images of dead and mutilated babies is not only okay, but actively to be desired.

If you live in rattlesnake country, you want to be sure your children know about rattlesnakes – what they look like and what they do – before going outside to play.

In fact, if a parent is even to suggest that their child would not benefit from seeing such images, they are accused of actively depriving them of something crucial and beneficial.

That is false. You should be ashamed of yourself for saying it.

 

[KarenNC]

If you live in rattlesnake country, you want to be sure your children know about rattlesnakes – what they look like and what they do – before going outside to play.

What I am pointing out is that despite the responses to criticisms from others, Catholics as a whole are evidently are not concerned enough that their 4 and 5 and 6 year old children who are educated in their own schools “know about rattlesnakes” in terms of abortion. That particular concern seems to be reserved for the 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 year old children of those who happen to drive by these images on the public streets.

Really? You have heard every response to me when I have raised objections to showing and distributing graphic images of mutilated dead babies where preschoolers and young elementary age children are likely to come across them?

 

[Philothea53]

Response to Karen:

Karen, Don’t you make this into a religion argument! This has nothing to do with whether or not the Church teaches abortion to kids. I don’t care how hard you have to work to keep your children from seeing the truth truck pictures. I don’t care if you couldn’t find anything in the Catholic school curriculum with the word abortion. As long as the horrible, grisly, sickening procedure is allowed anywhere in the world. these pictures need to be shown and you should be on the front lines with the rest of us doing whatever it takes to make this legal genocide go away. For your children. For your grandchildren. Whatever it takes.

While you sit in the comfort of your home and argue against the only real method we have to fight the abortion industry - THE REAL TRUTH OF CHOICE - maybe you need to see what it is we are fighting. Go to the Center for Bioethical Reform abortionno.org/ and watch the video to see this sickening procedure in action - Listen to the students applaud when the abortionist finishes doing a partical birth abortion priestsforlife.org/pba/index.htm.

Unless you are part of the prolife fight to eradicate choice - the choice of a woman to kill her unborn child at any moment during the pregnancy - up to the moment before that child takes his first breath - you need to back down. Almost 50 million babies have been murdered in the womb while we gave *silent witness *- quietly handing out leaflets directing women to the Crisis Pregnancy Centers and begging them to let us help them to let their child live, praying the Rosary and hoping that the heart of just one woman would be touched - and CHOICE continues.

We’ve tried everything else. Until decent people like you really realize what we are up against and join us, this horrific, legal procedure will never go away.

God bless you, Karen. God bless your children. God bless your future grandchildren.

 

[bmmckinney]

It is sadly apparent that many adults here care more about people’s feelings then saving lives. My suggestion is that they can join the knitting club down the street at the protestant church because those people are also to afraid to show the truth about many things.

 

[KarenNC]

That is false. You should be ashamed of yourself for saying it.

These are posts that were in response to folks on the thread about 'abortion protest signs–how far is too far" who said that the use of such images should be done with discretion because of young children being exposed to them:

“if the secular get to your kids first they will be taught the pictures are merely propaganda”

“I once watched an anti-abortion rally that took place in front of a public school. My highschool was right beside it and they weren’t targetting the teenage crowd, they were targetting the little children with their disgusting signs. I witnessed the trauma that these children went through. I even tried to talk to the people in the rally, to get them to the highschool side of the property, but all they could say is “target them young”. This is the same speech used by network TV execs, trashy magazine editors, music moguls and fashion experts to turn our children from children into tiny wannabe adults.”

" I don’t think it’s wrong for children to see these pictures, either. It’s a part of our lives and our children should be taught against these things from day one. We shouldn’t try to shelter them from the real world. This is the world we live in, better to talk to them and give them knowlege from the very beginning rather than shove it all on them all at once."

“Oh please. Does Tania worry endlessly about everything her child “stares at?” Did the child react? Ask a question? Likely the child didn’t even know what was pictured and had he/she asked the question it could have been a teaching moment.”

“I’d rather my children be exposed to the truth, even when it’s as ugly and horrible as this than to accept the nebulous “clump of cells” lies of the pro-abortion groups.
When my children were small, we had a beautiful picture book of babies at various stages of gestation and when I became pregnant, out comes the book so that we can take a look at what the baby looks like, this week. And these were small kids, too!
Let them see what those money-mills are really doing. If we’d have had this type of realism shoved in our faces since Roe v. Wade, how many children could have been saved? …A little shock and emotional trauma is a small price to pay for saving babies, IMO.”

" do these people complaining about the graphic pictures really think there were no kids around watching the crucifiction of Jesus. "

"I think that the graphic images are a necessary part of the pro-life campaign. I have been in several of these demonstrations and we always meet people who are oblivious to what an abortion looks like. The posters on this forum’s main obgection seems to be the effect they have on children. I, in all honesty, have never seen a child get upset by these images. I have seen children who are very, very interested or children who simply do not see them…If there are in fact a very small number of children who do truly get traumetized by the photos then that is sad. However these images are nowhere to be found on TV news, in the papers or in school textbooks - basically the child will NEVER know the truth unless his parents decide to show it to him. Because of this the Truth Tours are sadly necessary. "

“As for the pictures, I say, show them!!! They don’t go route’s where children normally are, however, if a child does see them, it is a great opportunity to teach them about the evil of abortion. Children don’t need to be “sheltered”, they need to be educated.
As far as saying that its up to the parent, well most would never say anything to their child one way or the other about abortion. How is a child suppose to learn if no one says anything about it?..For those who say that it will harm them for life, I say phooey, what is harming them for life is ignorance.”

"I personally think that graphic posters are acceptable. You can’t shield your child from everything and there is a way to explain it in a manner that a child can grasp. I fully believe they see worse on TV during either news or just in general. Look at where Sesame Street has gone…So no… I don’t think it’s too graphic for children to see… "

" I and others who care more about babies lives then playing with words and caring about born people’s feelings who will suffer only temporary discomfort we will continue to show these photos until people all over the world are so sickened by abortion that it disappears with no need to ever change a law. We will do what it takes because some of you will not help save lives or are too risk adverse to explain to your children they don’t live in a safe and friendly world and never will."

.

 

[KarenNC]

Karen, Don’t you make this into a religion argument! This has nothing to do with whether or not the Church teaches abortion to kids.

You are correct, this is to do with members of the Church choosing to teach abortion to other people’s kids without their parent’s consent.

In what possible sense is this not a “religion argument”? If someone is advocating using these images to “educate” my child on the public streets against my wishes and without my consent in ways that I cannot reasonably avoid, then why is the question of whether that same person is using the same techniques being advocated to educate the children of the same age in his or her own religious community’s prolife education program off-limits? If you claim it is justifiable and even actively beneficial to show these images to the preschooler whose mother is driving down the public street to a birthday party, dang straight I expect to see evidence that every child in your religious community is being shown exactly the same pictures and even more fully “educated.” If it is beneficial to my child, it should also be equally beneficial to yours.

While you sit in the comfort of your home and argue against the only real method we have to fight the abortion industry - THE REAL TRUTH OF CHOICE - maybe you need to see what it is we are fighting.

I have seen the truth of abortion. I know exactly what goes on. That is precisely why I don’t want preschool and elementary aged children having that knowledge. I also do not advocate putting video clips of people being gassed at Auschwitz on Sesame Street or going on field trips to the crack house, drunk tank and brothel just to make sure that the little ones know the “REAL TRUTH” of what goes on there.

We’ve tried everything else. Until decent people like you really realize what we are up against and join us, this horrific, legal procedure will never go away.

I will not “join you” in perpetrating such assaults against young children, regardless of how I feel about the cause, because I believe your methods in this area are deeply flawed and counterproductive.

“Decent people like me” believe that the end does not always justify the means. “Decent people like me” think that those children who have already been born should be worth a little consideration, respect and protection, not targets for abuse under the guise of “education.” “Decent people like me” recognize that 3 and 4 year olds are not the ones making decisions on whether or not to have abortions and don’t have a “need to know” the specifics of those services until they have the maturity and reasoning ability to actually make sense and use of them. “Decent people like me” recognize that there is a time and a place for everything, not everything all the time everywhere. “Decent people like me” can see the claims of the defenders of these images that they are only educational and can only benefit small children for exactly what they are.

 

[KarenNC]

FYI, Vern, here’s another reply I just got because I dared to ask the question about whether Catholics are showing these images to their own children in the Catholic schools as part of the pro-life curriculum at the ages discussed and stating that I don’t believe they are appropriate for preschool and young elementary children

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=174194&page=12 it is post #127

On the basis of those specific objections, the poster has decided that I need counseling, refuse to teach my child right from wrong and therefore am forcing people like the poster to do so for me, and should be forced to answer theoretical specific questions about abortion from my child. All this while totally ignoring the fact that if it weren’t for the tactics chosen by the poster and those like him, my just turned 7 year old would not think to ask such questions. He is the only one choosing to expose my child to such violent graphic images without warning or choice or option of avoidance, something even Hollywood has the courtesy not to do.

The reply was from bmmckinney who posted above on this thread. Perhaps he can answer your questions about whether he really believes that these images have educational value to young children.

 

[mapleoak]

On the basis of those specific objections, the poster has decided that I need counseling, refuse to teach my child right from wrong and therefore am forcing people like the poster to do so for me, and should be forced to answer theoretical specific questions about abortion from my child. All this while totally ignoring the fact that if it weren’t for the tactics chosen by the poster and those like him, my just turned 7 year old would not think to ask such questions. He is the only one choosing to expose my child to such violent graphic images without warning or choice or option of avoidance, something even Hollywood has the courtesy not to do.

Sorry, but as was said many times over, personal feelings do not even come close to the magnitude and scale of the abominable daily killing that is happening. How often have you heard that some 4000+/- people were killed today, whether it be the media, on the streets, or anywhere for that matter. Yet small little issues of no significant importance gain national attention.
As was said before, the images are not specifically directed at children, however it is accepted that children are going to see them. How you handle that is up to you. When talking about something as grave as abortion, I think you should do well to educate your children on matters of abortion from an early age. This rather than suggest that pro-lifers sit back, relax and do nothing to educate the general public. If you do your part and properly teach your children, you should have no problem explaining things to them when the need arises.

 

[KarenNC]

This rather than suggest that pro-lifers sit back, relax and do nothing to educate the general public.

Amazing that there is evidently, in your mind, absolutely no middle ground between “doing nothing to educate the general public” and parading these large posters of graphic photos of mutilated dead babies on public street corners, leaving cards featuring these photos in public areas (including on tables in restaurants under the salt shakers, in public restrooms, in dentists’ office waiting rooms, on people’s cars in grocery store parking lots, etc) and plastering graphic stickers and bumper stickers everywhere where it is known that small children will come in contact with them (regardless of whether or not those stickers are placed on someone else’s property without their permission or knowledge).

These particular techniques are wrong and counterproductive to your cause. If you truly believe that the end–however noble-- justifies using any and means whatsoever and indiscriminately, I can only wish that you had studied a little more history.

I can only be grateful that there are still some people out there who have maintained enough sense of perspective in their zeal to realize that while these images have a place in the discussion, that place is not everywhere, all the time, in front of everybody. I am glad that some maintain enough charity and compassion toward all children that they can extend some of that to caring that the environments to which the very children they seek to save are being exposed are not needlessly and unproductively filled with violence.

My sincere thanks to those people on both sides of the issue.