V
vern_humphrey
Guest
I don’t understand what you’re saying here
I have heard nothing. I have read this thread. If someone outside this thead said something to you, that is no justification for attacking people here.
- Status
B
bmmckinney
Guest
Karen et al,
The middle ground is exactly where prolife people have been as almost a whole since Roe vs. Wade. And it has cost us well over 50 million murdered babies in this country and many more across the world!
Satan loves the middle ground! Here is what he helps put out to children:
plannedparenthood.org/educational-resources/for-parents/human-sexuality-what-children-need-to-know.htm
By Age Five
Children need to know that
love should make people feel good, safe, and wanted
people’s bodies are different sizes, shapes, and colors
their bodies belong to themselves
touching their sex organs for pleasure is normal
it takes a woman and a man to make a baby — how the baby “gets in” and “gets out”
a woman does not have to have a baby unless she wants to
Children need to be able to
talk privately with trusted adults about sexual issues, questions, and concerns
use correct terms for all sexual body parts, including the reproductive organs
talk about all of their body parts without feeling “naughty”
say “No” to unwanted touch
seek privacy when they want to touch their sex organs for pleasure
understand biological femaleness and maleness
Ages Five to Seven
In addition to earlier information and skills —
children need to know
that all creatures reproduce themselves
how plants and animals grow and reproduce, what they need, and how we care for them
that all people, including our parents and grandparents, live through a life cycle that has a beginning and an end and includes sexuality at all ages
that people experience sexual pleasure in a number of ways
that everyone has sexual thoughts and fantasies and that having them is normal
that there are different types of caring home backgrounds
about non-stereotyped gender roles
that sexual identity includes sexual orientation — lesbian, gay, straight, or bisexual
the health care system is supportive of their health and well being
the basic facts about HIV/AIDS
about sexual abuse and its dangers — that sexual predators may seem kind, giving, and loving, and may be friends or family members
that a friend is someone who we enjoy being with and who shares, listens, encourages, and helps us think through problems
children need to be able to
identify family members’ roles and responsibilities
operate within non-stereotyped gender roles
take an active role in managing their body’s health and safety
recognize and protect themselves from potential sexual abuse and its dangers
develop, maintain, and end friendships
Ages Eight to Twelve
In addition to earlier information and skills about the changes in their bodies before puberty
preteens need to know
the general stages of the body’s growth
the range of times at which normal developmental changes begin, including normal differences in the timing of these events for girls and boys
how female and male bodies grow and differ
about menstruation and wet dreams
that emotional changes are to be expected during this time
they need to be able to
be comfortable with their changing bodies and know that the differences between themselves and their peers are normal
take care of their personal hygiene during menstruation or after having wet dreams
about sexual behavior —
preteens need to know
that sex is pleasurable, not only a way to have a baby
that masturbation is very common and that it is normal to masturbate — but only in private
what rape is
about female and male sex work and its dangers
about sexually transmitted infections, including HIV — transmission, prevention, and treatment
they need to be able to
accept human sexuality as a natural part of life
recognize the legitimacy and normalcy of sexual feelings
feel that it is normal to masturbate
protect against sexually transmitted infections and unwanted pregnancy
about human reproduction —
preteens need to know
the biology of the reproductive cycle
the probability of pregnancy with unprotected vaginal intercourse
about contraceptive methods
what abortion is
about assisted pregnancy — that a woman does not need to have sex to get pregnant
they need to be able to
describe the reproductive cycle
talk about how babies are made
talk about how pregnancy can be avoided
about contraception —
preteens need to know
that no one has to become a parent
that it is possible to plan parenthood
that having a child is a long-term responsibility, and every child deserves mature, responsible, loving parents
that contraceptive options are available including emergency contraception
how to get contraceptives
they need to be able to
name a variety of contraceptives
discuss safer sex
about relationships —
The middle ground is exactly where prolife people have been as almost a whole since Roe vs. Wade. And it has cost us well over 50 million murdered babies in this country and many more across the world!
Satan loves the middle ground! Here is what he helps put out to children:
plannedparenthood.org/educational-resources/for-parents/human-sexuality-what-children-need-to-know.htm
By Age Five
Children need to know that
love should make people feel good, safe, and wanted
people’s bodies are different sizes, shapes, and colors
their bodies belong to themselves
touching their sex organs for pleasure is normal
it takes a woman and a man to make a baby — how the baby “gets in” and “gets out”
a woman does not have to have a baby unless she wants to
Children need to be able to
talk privately with trusted adults about sexual issues, questions, and concerns
use correct terms for all sexual body parts, including the reproductive organs
talk about all of their body parts without feeling “naughty”
say “No” to unwanted touch
seek privacy when they want to touch their sex organs for pleasure
understand biological femaleness and maleness
Ages Five to Seven
In addition to earlier information and skills —
children need to know
that all creatures reproduce themselves
how plants and animals grow and reproduce, what they need, and how we care for them
that all people, including our parents and grandparents, live through a life cycle that has a beginning and an end and includes sexuality at all ages
that people experience sexual pleasure in a number of ways
that everyone has sexual thoughts and fantasies and that having them is normal
that there are different types of caring home backgrounds
about non-stereotyped gender roles
that sexual identity includes sexual orientation — lesbian, gay, straight, or bisexual
the health care system is supportive of their health and well being
the basic facts about HIV/AIDS
about sexual abuse and its dangers — that sexual predators may seem kind, giving, and loving, and may be friends or family members
that a friend is someone who we enjoy being with and who shares, listens, encourages, and helps us think through problems
children need to be able to
identify family members’ roles and responsibilities
operate within non-stereotyped gender roles
take an active role in managing their body’s health and safety
recognize and protect themselves from potential sexual abuse and its dangers
develop, maintain, and end friendships
Ages Eight to Twelve
In addition to earlier information and skills about the changes in their bodies before puberty
preteens need to know
the general stages of the body’s growth
the range of times at which normal developmental changes begin, including normal differences in the timing of these events for girls and boys
how female and male bodies grow and differ
about menstruation and wet dreams
that emotional changes are to be expected during this time
they need to be able to
be comfortable with their changing bodies and know that the differences between themselves and their peers are normal
take care of their personal hygiene during menstruation or after having wet dreams
about sexual behavior —
preteens need to know
that sex is pleasurable, not only a way to have a baby
that masturbation is very common and that it is normal to masturbate — but only in private
what rape is
about female and male sex work and its dangers
about sexually transmitted infections, including HIV — transmission, prevention, and treatment
they need to be able to
accept human sexuality as a natural part of life
recognize the legitimacy and normalcy of sexual feelings
feel that it is normal to masturbate
protect against sexually transmitted infections and unwanted pregnancy
about human reproduction —
preteens need to know
the biology of the reproductive cycle
the probability of pregnancy with unprotected vaginal intercourse
about contraceptive methods
what abortion is
about assisted pregnancy — that a woman does not need to have sex to get pregnant
they need to be able to
describe the reproductive cycle
talk about how babies are made
talk about how pregnancy can be avoided
about contraception —
preteens need to know
that no one has to become a parent
that it is possible to plan parenthood
that having a child is a long-term responsibility, and every child deserves mature, responsible, loving parents
that contraceptive options are available including emergency contraception
how to get contraceptives
they need to be able to
name a variety of contraceptives
discuss safer sex
about relationships —
B
bmmckinney
Guest
and this teenwire.com/
E
estesbob
Guest
Exactly! Why we sit back afraid to let our children know the horrors of abortion in this country the opposition is inundating our children with messages like this from the time they reach preschool. In my opinion the only people who oppose the distribution of pro-life literature are those who are presented are opposed to the message he presented, not the manner in which it’s being presented.
It is noteworthy that Karen shows a curriculum of slelcted Catholic schools as some justification for withholding this information. And yet we all know what a terrible job many Catholic schools have done in educating our children in our faith. It is no wonder ,looking at these curriculums, why so many Catholics since it’s okay to be pro-choice,
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vern_humphrey
Guest
I think many of our fellow Catholics would have us fight this battle with rubber suction cups on our arrows. While they stand on the sidelines and shout, “You’re going to put someone’s eye out with those things!”
P
Philothea53
Guest
K
KarenNC
Guest
Then let’s try again.
I said:
“It is being claimed in this and other threads that exposure of young children (preschool to early elementary ages) to graphic images of dead and mutilated babies is not only okay, but actively to be desired.”
Translation: People on this thread as well as others are sayingit is not only okay for children ages 2-7 or so to see graphic photos of mutilated dead babies, but that seeing these photos actually is good for them because it teaches them about how bad abortion is so they won’t have one.
You replied:
“If you live in rattlesnake country, you want to be sure your children know about rattlesnakes – what they look like and what they do – before going outside to play.”
My translation of this: “If you live in a place where abortions happen, you want to be sure that your children know exactly what abortion looks like and what is done during an abortion so that they will avoid having one. It is necessary to impart this information before they become sexually active.” Ergo, you think that allowing 2-7 year olds to see graphic photos of dead and mutilated babies as they ride down the street is a loving and caring thing to do, equivalent to giving them information that will protect them from rattlesnake bites that might kill them as they play.
Why you seem to think that the average 2-7 year old riding in the back of a minivan down a street in America on the way to the mall or eating at a restaurant with her family is likely to be engaging in behavior leading to even the question of desiring an abortion, I am not really clear.
I replied:
“What I am pointing out is that despite the responses to criticisms from others, Catholics as a whole are evidently are not concerned enough that their 4 and 5 and 6 year old children who are educated in their own schools “know about rattlesnakes” in terms of abortion. That particular concern seems to be reserved for the 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 year old children of those who happen to drive by these images on the public streets.”
Translation: "You have agreed that it is an important, loving action to make children ages 2-7 who live in a country where women have abortions aware of exactly what abortions look like and what happens during them and that one of the ways this happens is by knowingly allowing them to see graphic photographs of mutilated dead babies and talking to them about what happens during an abortion. This is the justification for the practice of pro-life groups standing on public streets with huge blown up detailed pictures of said mutilated babies, showing them to all passing vehicles, and leaving cards with graphic pictures of mutilated dead babies on tables in public restaurants, dentist waiting rooms, public restrooms, on people’s cars in grocery store parking lots, etc in an effort to be sure that the public, knowingly including these children, are not left uneducated about what abortion is. This practice is being defended as absolutely necessary and that without showing these pictures in places that you know these young children are very likely to come across them, there is no way that any abortions will decrease or stop.
However, if one looks to the prolife curricula that Catholics are using to educate their own children in this 2-7 year old range in their Catholic schools and churches, I have been unable to find any that advocate the use of such images or discussions of the specifics of abortion, or even mention of the word “abortion” before at earliest the 5th grade. If Catholics truly believe that graphic photos of mutilated dead babies are good for the education of children ages 2-7 in the general public so that they “know what rattlesnakes look like and do before they go out and play” without the use of graphic photos of dead mutilated babies and specific descriptions of what abortion means, I find it absolutely astounding that they are not screaming at the top of their lungs for their own children to receive such information in the same way “before it’s too late.”
Is it because they care more for the education of the random child in the public sector than their own children in their own schools and churches, believe that non-Catholic 2-7 year olds are engaging in risky sexual behavior that might lead them to desire an abortion or believe that such a child is more intelligent and better able to grasp such information than a Catholic child of the same age? I doubt it.
Rather it seems to me that they do not truly believe that such images are effective, appropriate and necessary means of teaching children ages 2-7 about the sanctity of life. They are simply using this excuse to justify their lack of willingness to be discriminating in their use of such images by limiting them to places and audiences for which they are actually appropriate.
K
KarenNC
Guest
Bingo. If it were included as part of a school curriculum, a parent would have a choice in their child’s participation and at least a little bit of warning that the subject was going to be addressed at a particular age. They would even have a choice on whether or not an educational organization that taught this information at a specific age was appropriate for their child and have the option (in many cases) to seek other alternatives more in keeping with their values and wishes. None of this is possible in what you insist is absolutely necessary.
There is a huge difference between what some people consider it their right to expose my child to in the name of education and what the same people are advocating exposing the children of their own religious community to for the same exact reasons.
There is a huge difference in being appalled at the suggestion by a political candidate that the public schools provide age-appropriate sex education in kindergarten regarding inappropriate touching and the actual names for body parts with parents having the chance to opt-out their child in advance and supporting sex education for children of the same age via the use of graphic photographs of mutilated dead babies held up on major roadways with the parents having no control over exposure to the situation.
There is a huge difference in being appalled that a single 8th grade class was shown an R rated movie including homosexuals without their parents’ permission and supporting the family in a lawsuit for damages inflicted by such and saying that it is okay that preschoolers all over America are shown graphic photographs of mutilated dead babies without their parents’ permission on the way to the mall or when they go to the dentist.
There is a huge difference in objecting to the sex education program of an optional extracurricular program that parents have to actively seek out if they want their child to participate and supporting leaving cards with graphic images of dead mutilated babies on them in public restaurants, dentist offices, public bathrooms, etc which are frequented by parents with young children.
If it was even marginally likely that the only people driving by such signs or eating in restaurants were even preteen or older, that argument might wash. Signs out on main thoroughfares do not support that assertion. The person who placed material prominently on my car with these images very visible all over it did not care that I had a booster seat (used exclusively by children under the age of 8) and Barbie books clearly visible in the back and was highly likely to be returning to my car with a child between the ages of 4 and 8 with me.
No, in fact, my child is not.
I said: “I have seen the truth of abortion. I know exactly what goes on. That is precisely why I don’t want preschool and elementary aged children having that knowledge. I also do not advocate putting video clips of people being gassed at Auschwitz on Sesame Street or going on field trips to the crack house, drunk tank and brothel just to make sure that the little ones know the “REAL TRUTH” of what goes on there.” How does this make me “naive”?
That others use poor judgement and do things that are wrong and possibly even criminal is a justification for you to do exactly the same thing–provide graphic, non-age-appropriate sexual education to minors without the consent of their parents? If you need money to buy these graphic images, is it okay to go rob a bank just because criminals rob banks to fund their activities?
I would be interested in reading the sources you have citing the frequency of both pregnancy and abortion in 9 year olds in the United States. Is it physiologically possible? Certainly, in some cases, but very, very far from the norm. The average age for menarche averages roughly 12 to 12 1/2 years old pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/106/3/622?ck=nck
Nowhere have I ever said that children in the 10-13 year old range did not need to know about abortion. Fifth graders are usually in the 11 year old range, which ties in with the suggested ages in other prolife curricula.
K
KarenNC
Guest
It is an attack to repeat what you yourself posted? Maybe you heard nothing because you were too busy making the following reply in post #19 on this thread to child of mary who expressed concern over the appropriateness of 4 year olds seeing these pictures:
When she replied later that parents don’t have a choice in whether their children see these signs at intersections, you replied
(post #28)
P
Philothea53
Guest
Baloney. The schools have in unprecedented numbers said that it is their decision to decide curriculum and to not include parental notification and permission. A recent example:
Lexington, Mass., father of 6-year-old arrested, spends night in jail over objections to homosexual curriculum in son’s kindergarten class. article8.org/docs/news_events/parker/main.htm
You are taking a lot of liberties with this. Obama was not so specific. Doesn’t surprise me a bit. Those rose-colored glasses come in handy, do they?
This is only one example. The news is rife with others. And why do you consider this as a huge difference? Because it’s abortion we’re talking about? Because it’s YOUR children and only your children you are concerned about?
You have repeatedly said your children don’t go to public school. Where do you get this drivel that parents have to actively seek out an optional sex education program? As I showed in the link to the article above, parents don’t get to decide in most school districts across the nation.
I have been involved with the prolife cause for a very long time. I can tell you that Planned Parenthood, NARAL and NAF are everywhere. Now that adults are finally understanding what we have been fighting against all this time, PP et al have got to target kids younger and younger. You can’t kill babies unless babies are being made. With the help of the liberal NEA they have now a toehold in the schools. Have you seen Planned Parenthood’s teenwire site? teenwire.com/
The schools aren’t called liberal arts institutions just because it sounds good. The schools are full of extremely far left liberals who believe in sex at any age. While you’ve worn your rose-colored glasses and kept YOUR kids in a protective bubble, other parents have not been able to the same with theirs.
I’m sick of this conversation. You are wrong, Karen. I suspect maybe you aren’t really prolife. Furthermore I think you are selfish. You go ahead and protect your children. That’s what a good mother is supposed to do. I, on the otherhand, will care for my children enough to ALSO ensure that their future is one of hope and joy and that everyone from natural conception to natural death can be guaranteed a chance at life. I will do whatever it takes in spite of people like you.
I’m through with this discussion. But I will pray for you, for your children and for your posterity.
K
KarenNC
Guest
I don’t plan to cede the right to provide sex education without my permission to Planned Parenthood any more than I plan to cede it to folks on street corners with graphic photos of mutilated dead babies.
K
KarenNC
Guest
And parents have the right, in every state in this nation, to remove their children from public school if they so choose and either seek or provide an alternate form of education. They also have the right to use democratic process to fight for what they believe the schools should be doing.
Not being creative at all. I was referring to the CBN article by correspondent David Brody—that’s Christian Broadcasting Network, not an organization known for wearing “rose-colored glasses” when it comes to any hint of a controversial issue concerning Christian views on morality.
cbn.com/CBNnews/198169.aspx
It’s the one you chose.
Because when an 8th grader is exposed to unwanted and non-age appropriate sex education without the consent of her guardians via a film shown in a classroom, the family sues for emotional damages.
When a preschooler is exposed to unwanted and non-age-appropriate sex education without the consent of her guardians by people standing on street corners, the family is accused of being naive, oversheltering, refusing to teach their child right from wrong, selfish, ignorant, part of the problem, supporting abortion for the sake of convenience, etc.
I was referring to the Girl Scouts, the program you used as an example when you said “Girl Scouts’ sex-education program teaches girls about safe-sex and condoms, planned parenting, and homosexuality.”
The last time I looked no one was forcing anyone to participate in Girl Scouts.
What does a Planned Parenthood site aimed at teens have to do with whether it is desirable or even remotely appropriate for you to show graphic photographs of mutilated dead babies to children in the 2-7 age range? My issue in this is with you and others like you. I take up my issues with Planned Parenthood with Planned Parenthood directly, just as I am taking up my issues with the actions you are advocating with you.
Unless Planned Parenthood is the one funding, advocating, organizing or endorsing showing graphic photographs of mutilated dead babies to young children who have the misfortune to be passing by street corners or going to the dentist or a public restroom, what Planned Parenthood does or does not do is not at issue here.
I have made my position abundantly clear frequently. I certainly believe fully that all life is sacred and that abortion is not a convenient way out of an awkward situation but without exception a tragic situation.
You continue to make that abundantly clear. That doesn’t mean I plan to make it easy for you. I am more than willing to argue against and fight the abuse and terrorization of young children under the guise of “helping” them as long as is necessary.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
Before you presume to tell me what I think, have the courtesy to put on your turban and gaze into your crystal ball.
You’re not clear because you presume to tell me what I think. You’re arguing with your own ideas, not with mine.
Once again, you presume to tell the rest of us what we think.
Note that no one is ascribing motive to you. No one is presuming to tell you what you think.
Can you not extend the same courtesy to others?
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estesbob
Guest
It is quite a debating tactic. First she tells you what you think, Then she tells you why you shouldnt think that. Only problem is that at some point she is going to run out straw.
Meanwhile 16,000 children have died since this thread has started-I guess that is not a problerm unless our children found out about it.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
If someone is going to pretend to read my mind, I want the full Monty – turban, crystal ball, erie background music, and so on.
If you give me permission to make up your thoughts, I can prove you’re a stump-sitting, tobacco-chewing possum-eater.
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
I have been wondering when Planet Earth is going to run out of surface area to accommodate that recent proliferation of neglected Elephants in the Room.
Now I like Elephants as well as the next person. We should not pretend they don’t exist however. They will feel unloved. Worse they will get up to mischief and the room will get … er … messy.
[SIGN]Make sure
your elephants are
well lit![/SIGN]
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
M
Mag_Uidhir
Guest
Here in Ireland there is a group that make postcard size graphic pictures that disturb, they do change hearts.
Sadly out of sight is out of mind, I could scarcely believe that I posted a picture to a nurse in Illinois and she didn’t know that babies were so well formed before they were cruelly torn from their mothers.
Have to say she was pro-choice, but after seeing the pictures she is pro-life, so they do work.
She thought it was a clump of cells, so yes out of sight is out of mind, we need to show the world these graphic images, HELL will be the reward for this unrepented sin.
E
estesbob
Guest
Perhaps we shouldn’t let our children see graphic images of abortion. Probably best to wait they are 14 or 15 and their adult boyfriend, having impregnated them, take them to the local Planned Parenthood clinic where they can view first hand the remains of their first child,. If we show them images before that they might be reluctant to exercise the most sacred right given to them under the Constitution.
P
Philothea53
Guest
Perhaps we shouldn’t let our children see graphic images of abortion. Probably best to wait they are 14 or 15 and their adult boyfriend, having impregnated them, take them to the local Planned Parenthood clinic where they can view first hand the remains of their first child,. If we show them images before that they might be reluctant to exercise the most sacred right given to them under the Constitution.
Now this is well-placed sarcasm.
- Status