Fr. Z: Austria--Female altar servers up, ordinations down

[otjm]

Fifth as far as a comparison to either the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter or the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest…the former has some 300 priests incardinated. For the perspective of Americans, that is less than half the number of priests incardinated in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles – and the United States has approximately 200 dioceses. And that is one country. The number I gave is their total for the whole world. And they have existed for almost thirty years

The latter institute is significantly smaller that the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter…less than a hundred priests incardinated. We have abbeys with more priests than there are priests incardinated in the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest. But then, these societies only serve those attached to the vetus ordo, which is an infinitesimal number when compared with the statistics of the rest of a diocese

To carry forward your point, in the US in 2016 there were 25,760 diocesan priests and 11,432 priests in an order (statistics provided by CARA).

400+ world wide, vs. 37,192 in the US alone. Sure, no problem, let’s talk about how many more priests come from parishes with no girl altar servers.

Fr. Z and Brendan 64 have some good things to say, but this is simply fantasy land for them.

 

[tafan]

The following report is on the class of 2016 ordinations in the United States. There are lots of statistics in the report, but a few stand out in my mind. Again, I will make the case again, to look at what has an effect on men responding to the call to the priesthood, you do not start from looking at percentages of people from any given activity or background, you start from the priests. And you look to see what they have in common.

1. half of the men ordained in 2016 attended Catholic elementary schools and 41% attended catholic high schools and colleges
2. 73% of them reported practicing Eucharistic adoration and saying the rosary before entering the seminary
3. 70% of them were altar servers
4. 70% of them were encouraged to enter the priesthood by their parish priest

I find it very unlikely that the last two are not strongly related, as being an altar server on a regular basis is certainly the primary way young men and boys interact with priests.

To repeat a quick analogy, 87% of lung cancer patients were smokers. If we want end lung cancer, the number one way would be to get people to quit smoking. Likewise, if we wanted to reduce the number of vocations, we would do away with the rosary, Eucharistic adoration, and stop boys and young men from being altar servers.

There are certainly parishes around here that have almost exclusively girl altar servers. It is simply a denial of how boys behave to say that once girls become the majority of the servers in a parish, many boys no longer want to do it. I am not advocating doing away with girl altar servers, but to say it does not have an unfortunate side effect is simply denying the obvious. And we need to admit this.

If we want more vocations, we need to encourage boys (and parents of course) in all of the above things: saying the rosary, practicing Eucharistic adoration, going to Catholic schools AND being an altar server!!!

 

[OraLabora]

The following report is on the class of 2016 ordinations in the United States. There are lots of statistics in the report, but a few stand out in my mind. Again, I will make the case again, to look at what has an effect on men responding to the call to the priesthood, you do not start from looking at percentages of people from any given activity or background, you start from the priests. And you look to see what they have in common.

1. half of the men ordained in 2016 attended Catholic elementary schools and 41% attended catholic high schools and colleges
2. 73% of them reported practicing Eucharistic adoration and saying the rosary before entering the seminary
3. 70% of them were altar servers
4. 70% of them were encouraged to enter the priesthood by their parish priest

I find it very unlikely that the last two are not strongly related, as being an altar server on a regular basis is certainly the primary way young men and boys interact with priests.

To repeat a quick analogy, 87% of lung cancer patients were smokers. If we want end lung cancer, the number one way would be to get people to quit smoking. Likewise, if we wanted to reduce the number of vocations, we would do away with the rosary, Eucharistic adoration, and stop boys and young men from being altar servers.

There are certainly parishes around here that have almost exclusively girl altar servers. It is simply a denial of how boys behave to say that once girls become the majority of the servers in a parish, many boys no longer want to do it. I am not advocating doing away with girl altar servers, but to say it does not have an unfortunate side effect is simply denying the obvious. And we need to admit this.

If we want more vocations, we need to encourage boys (and parents of course) in all of the above things: saying the rosary, practicing Eucharistic adoration, going to Catholic schools AND being an altar server!!!

Looking at the 70% who were previously altar servers, that alone is a fairly meaningless statistic.

Again, correlation does not equal causation. If there were 10 vocations in a diocese over a given period, that statistic only means there were 7 of them who were previously altar servers. It does not say how many altar servers had been boys over the same period, and it does not mean that 70% of male altar servers go on to be priests.

It is also highly unlikely that female altar servers are “pushing out”, male altar servers. Far more likely is that most young boys simply aren’t interested in being altar servers in this day and age, and their parents aren’t pushing them either. Nature abhors a vacuum, so the result is young girls, and mature men and women taking their place. If girl altar servers are disallowed, it’s a non-sequitur to say that there will suddenly be an uptick in boys interested in becoming altar servers and that most of them will go on to become priests.

As others have pointed out there are wayyyy too many variables involved to put all the blame on the shoulders of the girls who serve at the altar, or those who appointed them.

I agree with you however that encouraging boys to serve in their parish, whether as altar servers or in some other capacity, is an important way to spark an interest in a vocation. As a good friend who is a Benedictine monk and priest says, “if he survives puberty and girls and is STILL interested in becoming a priest or a monk, then we’ll know he has a vocation”.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

This is not anecdotal, I think this happens a lot. At a parish where girls become the majority group of altar servers, it snowballs and that is all you end up having.

It is anecdotal when the data, or datum, offfered is not derived from an empirical study.

 

[tafan]

Looking at the 70% who were previously altar servers, that alone is a fairly meaningless statistic.

Again, correlation does not equal causation. If there were 10 vocations in a diocese over a given period, that statistic only means there were 7 of them who were previously altar servers. It does not say how many altar servers had been boys over the same period, and it does not mean that 70% of male altar servers go on to be priests.

It is not a meaningless statistic. I have NOT claimed that it implies 70% of male altar servers go on to be priests.
You are misrepresenting my point. I suppose intentionally, because I have made it several times.

It is also highly unlikely that female altar servers are “pushing out”, male altar servers. Far more likely is that most young boys simply aren’t interested in being altar servers in this day and age, and their parents aren’t pushing them either. Nature abhors a vacuum, so the result is young girls, and mature men and women taking their place. If girl altar servers are disallowed, it’s a non-sequitur to say that there will suddenly be an uptick in boys interested in becoming altar servers and that most of them will go on to become priests.

Of course parents are not pushing them, but they are likely not pushing the girls either. I have no statistical evidence to present, only what I see at many parishes. And what I see at many parishes is that most altar servers are now female. I also know how boys think, and they don’t like to do what they perceive as “girl” activities.

As others have pointed out there are wayyyy too many variables involved to put all the blame on the shoulders of the girls who serve at the altar, or those who appointed them.

Where have I placed any blame on the shoulders of the girls who serve at the altar? No where.

I agree with you however that encouraging boys to serve in their parish, whether as altar servers or in some other capacity, is an important way to spark an interest in a vocation. As a good friend who is a Benedictine monk and priest says, “if he survives puberty and girls and is STILL interested in becoming a priest or a monk, then we’ll know he has a vocation”.

Well, if you agree with my main point, why all of the false statements about what I wrote.
I standby all that I wrote. I am not saying we should have no female altar servers. I am saying that being an altar server, going to a catholic school, engaging in certain devotional activities is important to get young men to respond to the call from God to be a priest. The statistics directly bear this out.

 

[SyroMalankara]

If one wants to include the Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Churches in the stat - 100% of these priests came to the priesthood from service assisting at the altar.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Looking at the 70% who were previously altar servers, that alone is a fairly meaningless statistic.

Again, correlation does not equal causation. If there were 10 vocations in a diocese over a given period, that statistic only means there were 7 of them who were previously altar servers. It does not say how many altar servers had been boys over the same period, and it does not mean that 70% of male altar servers go on to be priests.

It is also highly unlikely that female altar servers are “pushing out”, male altar servers. Far more likely is that most young boys simply aren’t interested in being altar servers in this day and age, and their parents aren’t pushing them either. Nature abhors a vacuum, so the result is young girls, and mature men and women taking their place. If girl altar servers are disallowed, it’s a non-sequitur to say that there will suddenly be an uptick in boys interested in becoming altar servers and that most of them will go on to become priests.

As others have pointed out there are wayyyy too many variables involved to put all the blame on the shoulders of the girls who serve at the altar, or those who appointed them.

I agree with you however that encouraging boys to serve in their parish, whether as altar servers or in some other capacity, is an important way to spark an interest in a vocation. As a good friend who is a Benedictine monk and priest says, “if he survives puberty and girls and is STILL interested in becoming a priest or a monk, then we’ll know he has a vocation”.

I would largely agree with what you write but I would go a step further, as a priest.

Last year, the Archdiocese of New York ordained nine men to serve as priests of the diocese. The archdiocese encompasses 296 parishes and some 2.8 million Catholics.

The policy in a given parish on altar servers should favour the 99% who fulfil this ministry without any thought or even possibility of a vocation to the priesthood…not the fraction of a percent who do contemplate a priestly vocation.

 

[Padres1969]

See that’s a stat I wish we had. What percentage of male altar servers go on to be priests both before and after girls were allowed into altar service? That would more likely establish if there might be some correlation between girls being in the role, and any impact on priestly vocation.

And while we’re at it, stats on Catholic retention among those in altar service might be interesting as well. I say that since personal experience is that those that have participated in altar service (male or female) has led to leaving the Catholic Church (or Christianity entirely).

 

[OraLabora]

It is not a meaningless statistic. I have NOT claimed that it implies 70% of male altar servers go on to be priests.
You are misrepresenting my point. I suppose intentionally, because I have made it several times.

No. I am not misrepresenting your point and to suggest I am doing it maliciously is uncharitable and I would like an apology.

My point is that your statistic is vague, and is open to misinterpretation. I had to do a fair bit of mental analysis to try to understand it, and it is not understandable in the manner presented. It merely says that 70% of priests had been altar servers in the past and my point is that this is not at all a predictor of how many vocations could be achieved if we didn’t allow or reduced the number of girls as altar servers. As Fr. Ruggero says it is merely a datum without analysis. Written the way it was, I explained how it had no correlation with the number of vocations that could be expected if all altar servers were male. My point about it not meaning that 70% of male altar servers go on to be priests was precisely to prevent the misinterpretation of vague statistic by someone reading it superficially. It was not intended to misrepresent, it was intended to prevent misinterpretation by anyone reading it. It was in fact my first superficial reaction when I saw the statistic until I stopped to think about it and I suspected others might be misinterpreting it in the same manner.

Of course parents are not pushing them, but they are likely not pushing the girls either. I have no statistical evidence to present, only what I see at many parishes. And what I see at many parishes is that most altar servers are now female. I also know how boys think, and they don’t like to do what they perceive as “girl” activities.

I also know how boys think, having been one myself once, too many years ago. I didn’t serve at the altar (this would have been in the 1960s) because I had zero interest in religion as a child, other than to remember my catechism by heart to get good grades in school and I was more interested in science, technology and math in those days. I suspect many boys today also have the same lack of interest in religion and prefer sports, technology, etc.

But there are so many factors involved it’s impossible to generalize. There are also more girls than boys graduating from medical school in Canada now and more boys dropping out from high school and above, which may indicate a malaise among today’s young males that may also impact in other areas such as religion. Girls also tend to mature more quickly than boys. Families are much smaller; if a family has only one son, it is more likely he’d be encouraged to continue the family name by marrying and having children of his own than to become a priest. And so on and so forth. So many variables, and no credible analysis other than bloggers with an agenda trying to manipulate people (I am referring to the blogger linked to by the OP, not you).

Where have I placed any blame on the shoulders of the girls who serve at the altar? No where.

You haven’t, but it is the entire premise of this thread which is why I brought it up.

Well, if you agree with my main point, why all of the false statements about what I wrote.I standby all that I wrote. I am not saying we should have no female altar servers. I am saying that being an altar server, going to a catholic school, engaging in certain devotional activities is important to get young men to respond to the call from God to be a priest. The statistics directly bear this out.

Settle down, I have not made false statements. But you have provided vague statistics, that do not prove anything other than many priests had in their past been altar servers, and I tried to illustrate their vagueness and their openness to misinterpretation. We cannot even say if they became priests because they became altar servers, or they became altar servers because they were interested in the priesthood and it was a good way to be mentored by a priest or see what a priest’s life was like. Or a mixture of both reasons. Again, correlation does not equal causation.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

See that’s a stat I wish we had. What percentage of male altar servers go on to be priests both before and after girls were allowed into altar service? That would more likely establish if there might be some correlation between girls being in the role, and any impact on priestly vocation.

And while we’re at it, stats on Catholic retention among those in altar service might be interesting as well. I say that since personal experience is that those that have participated in altar service (male or female) has led to leaving the Catholic Church (or Christianity entirely).

It is an interesting set of requests but I am not sure what would be gained, honestly.

Women and girls being allowed to serve, technically, was inaugurated by the decision of the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts concerning Canon 230 in 1994, a decision confirmed by Pope Saint John Paul II. The finding had been anticipated in various parishes and dioceses, however, before the dubium was answered and actually even before the dubium was submitted.

What percentage of male altar servers go on to be priests both before and after girls were allowed into altar service. I can confidently say that, in both instances, it would be a number that is well to the right of the decimal point, given how large the universe of altar servers is.

Which brings up its own further point, based on my knowledge as a formator. In the number of priests reporting that they had served Mass would be those who did not serve Mass in childhood but in their college years or in adulthood…I know that because I worked with such seminarians. So one would have to account for a male population that extends beyond childhood.

But there really are too many corollary factors and variables to conclude a meaningful analysis concerning this one extremely ancillary data element.

My own experience is the one I know the most intimately…far more than any of my brother priests or the seminarians I worked with, given the depth of my own self-knowledge. Were the years I served Mass before I entered formation of any significance in my eventual ordination? Yes. Would I put it anywhere near the top of the list? No. It was overtaken by other experiences that were far more decisive, after entering formation.

The many years in formation, my own formators, my relationship with my bishop across the years of formation and before I entered formation, the experiences I had in my pastoral assignments before ordination [which allowed me to glimpse the actual life I was undertaking as opposed to what a Mass server experiences], my relationships with the priests of what would be my presbyterate along the interior sense of being called – but, what is more important, having that sense confirmed by competent ecclesiastical authority – were what were decisive in my becoming a priest…not the fact that years before in my youth, I had served Mass.

A tremendous amount of water had passed under the bridge between the days of serving Mass in my parish many years before and the day I was ordained as a priest and when I returned to that altar, at which I had served so many years before, to offer a Mass of Thanksgiving.

The second point, I am even less clear on. You are saying that service at the altar led to leaving the Church or repudiating Christianity? Solely service at the altar? Influenced by no other factor? As a priest, I have never encountered that phenomenon.

 

[Padres1969]

The second point, I am even less clear on. You are saying that service at the altar led to leaving the Church or repudiating Christianity? Solely service at the altar? Influenced by no other factor? As a priest, I have never encountered that phenomenon.

Not solely no, as we were discussing earlier, nothing happens in a vacuum. But it was a factor, and happened with strange regularity among all I know who served at the altar (save 1 individual). All but one, and I went to Catholic school so I knew many, who served either became fallen away Catholics, or not Catholic at all. Including my own siblings who both served (I did not). The abuse scandals hit my parish particularly hard with 3 different priests being accused and removed over the course of several years so not sure what impact that may have had in concert with altar service…

 

[reggieM]

If one wants to include the Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Churches in the stat - 100% of these priests came to the priesthood from service assisting at the altar.

 

[otjm]

See that’s a stat I wish we had. What percentage of male altar servers go on to be priests both before and after girls were allowed into altar service? That would more likely establish if there might be some correlation between girls being in the role, and any impact on priestly vocation.

And while we’re at it, stats on Catholic retention among those in altar service might be interesting as well. I say that since personal experience is that those that have participated in altar service (male or female) has led to leaving the Catholic Church (or Christianity entirely).

Bearing in mind the dictum from some wag who said “There are lies, da**ed lies, and statistics”, I will venture some. The data is from CARA.

In 1965 there were about 46,300,000 Catholics registered in parishes; attendance at Mass weekly was 55%, and there were 994 ordinations.

In 2016, there were about 67,700,000 registered Catholics; 22% attendance weekly at Mass, and 548 ordinations.

That works out to about 1 ordination per 25,600 registered Catholics in 1964, and 1 ordination per 27,200 in 2016.

However, there were numerous seminaries with high school, college, and theology in 1965; now there may be a couple of high school seminaries, and many if not most entering into seminary now already have college degrees and need a degree (or equivalent) in Philosophy before entering theology. There may still be colleges as part of seminary; but they appear for the most part not to be 4 year full time colleges.

There also is a widely acknowledged hole in the last 50 years, and that is the dumbing down of catechesis for grade and high school students, which really did not start to turn around until the 90’s.

There are also fewer Catholic schools, both grade and high school, but I don’t have any statistics to correlate with Mass attendance.

Fr. Z makes much of Austria, and I don’t know what the rate of Mass attendance is there; but overall in Europe the last statistics I heard was hovering somewhere around 5%.

CARA shows statistics for every 5 years. In 2000 there were 442 ordinations; 454 in 2005, 459 in 2010, and 548 in 2016. Some of that has been attributed to John Paul 2 and his emphasis on youth.

While there was a decrease in the number of ordinations per population, it is a fool’s game to pretend that it can be attributed to girls serving. The drop should be far, far greater if supposedly half the servers were girls (and supposedly edging out half the boys); even that is not a proven fact; it may simply be that there are now more servers overall, and entirely debatable as to how many boys do not serve because girls do. Anecdotal evidence is not worth the electrons disturbed in reporting it.

 

[pianistclare]

Of course. But it would seem in Fr. Z’s world, secularization, the sexual revolution, the affect of the abuse scandals, the less respect religion - of all types - has in today’s Western world – none of this has any influence on vocations. It’s all the fault of female altar servers.

Right.
The death of the Catholic schools and the fact that people don’t even TAKE their kids to Mass has more to do with it than allowing girls to serve.

 

[godisgood77]

Correlation does not equal causation.

Exactly…

 

[reggieM]

Of course. But it would seem in Fr. Z’s world, secularization, the sexual revolution, the affect of the abuse scandals, the less respect religion - of all types - has in today’s Western world – none of this has any influence on vocations. It’s all the fault of female altar servers.

In my view, altar girls and women sharing liturgical roles with the priest are manifestations of feminism. And feminism is an outgrowth of secularism, egalitarianism and the breakdown of the family, war against patriarchy, destruction of masculine spiritual and leadership models. All of that leads to gender confusion and is part of the sexual revolution.
Not all women in the world are feminists. It’s mostly just Americans.
I learned that recently by encountering women from other countries - I was shocked and delighted. They actually know and love the differences between men and women and support them.

 

[otjm]

In my view, altar girls and women sharing liturgical roles with the priest are manifestations of feminism. And feminism is an outgrowth of secularism, egalitarianism and the breakdown of the family, war against patriarchy, destruction of masculine spiritual and leadership models. All of that leads to gender confusion and is part of the sexual revolution.
Not all women in the world are feminists. It’s mostly just Americans.
I learned that recently by encountering women from other countries - I was shocked and delighted. They actually know and love the differences between men and women and support them.

Ah, finally, we have arrived at that curse of humanity - feminism!

Last time I checked, Our Lady was a woman…

Why is it that people can seem to see only two sides of a coin: either “keep 'em barefoot and pregnant, and if I want your opinion I will tell you what to say”, or “radical, wild eyed men-hating child aborting (expletive deleted)”.

I raised my daughters to know that they were intelligent; capable, and equal in dignity to any man out there - and in some instances, more so. They learned modesty, honesty, a work ethic, dignity, and that no man had a right to tell them “they were just girls” or that they couldn’t do something because of their gender.

And I listened to the put-downs they received, acknowledged how it hurt, reminded of their dignity and worth as human beings, and as women, and sent they back out into the fray.

I have met far, far too many knuckle dragging men (and boys) who are so fearful of their own limitations and so doubtful of their true masculinity that they have to put women down - including their wives, mothers, daughters, sisters and co-workers.

One does not have to have a matriarchy to realize that a large amount of patriarchy is based on fear.

And given that service has all too typically been seen the sphere of women, it is truly amazing that when women seek to serve (as in, being an altar server), true horror is expressed.

What absolute poppycock. Girls serving at the altar of the Lord! Egalitarianism! It is going to destroy the family! They are usurping a God-given right! Gender confusion! Destruction of leadership models (never mind that unless they become a Master of Ceremony, there is zero “leadership” in an altar server).

Yeah, we need to make sure they all take classes in tatting and sewing; wash the dishes, clean the floor, and for all that is holy, be demur and learn to bat their eyelashes.

But Heaven forbid that they might bring up a cruet of wine or water, be involved in the lavabo, hold a paten, or bring up the chalice to the altar! An insult to The Lord!

If we let that loose, why, they might even have an opinion! Can you imagine - why, they might even want to become a theologian, or, or, or… words escape me.

What an absolute dismissive put down.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Since I teach statistics, I have to say that correlation does not imply causation. In particular, if the experience of my parish is any indication, altar girls are not crowding out altar boys, we tend to have too few of either. It is usually the same kids doing it over and over. Some Sundays we don’t have any servers. So in my parish there is plenty of room for both.

 

[Kielbasi]

“Growing number of women in the sanctuary. Shrinking number of ordinations to the priesthood.

Is there a correlation?

Sure there is.”

i don’t think ordinations are down at all, if you look at the number of priests per practicing catholic, the numbers are as good as they’ve been.

 

[pianistclare]

Right, We have 50 priests int he pipeline, and we’re not the biggest Archdiocese.

St. Martha, pray for those girls who are willing to serve at the table.