Fr. Z: Austria--Female altar servers up, ordinations down

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I agree words are important. What should we call it then? The movement/belief that men and woman are equal in dignity and that women should have the right to vote and drive cars and receive equal pay for equal work?
The belief that men and women are equal in dignity. I don’t think is something new and I think ordinary Catholic doctrine would cover it. Men need to be respected. There’s a growing men’s movement that has that focus - and it is targeted against feminism. So, both men and women need to be respected and need to be granted dignity.

Beyond that, I would agree that you (someone?) should start to bring some definition to what you’re talking about since it is about specifics. You’ll include some things and exclude others.
For example, you could simply say, “men and women are equal in all things”. That’s the general notion of feminism. And that’s the genderless society - where the ideal is that there should be no distinction between male and female.
However, you may disagree with that. If so, you’d have to provide some definitions. “We want this, but not that”.
I guess that’s how you’d put together a social movement.
It may simply be easier to say “the right to vote” movement. That’s one thing. The “right to drive” movement is another.

But simply saying “this movement is for women’s rights” is manipulative. Everyone is expected to sign-on to it, and then we realize it’s the right to abortion and the right to engage in a hateful warfare against men, etc.
 
I think it’s more than just respect for women. I think it’s also (in is purest sense) an understanding that women are just as capable and intelligent and creative as men and that women have much to contribute to politics and economics and other fields that were for a very long time soley the purview of men.

I agree, every mentally healthy person should want this! I think some reject the feminist label because they associate it with ideologies that emerged during the sexual revolution that are sinful and wrong. I do think the movement itself started as a reaction to something that was also wrong, though: a stifling of feminine genius. It may seem obvious to you that woman are not inferior to men and that omen should be encouraged to respond to God’s call even if it means working outside the home, but for a long time in the United States this was not the case. In many places in the world, it is still not possible for women to move about freely without a male chaperone.
Perhaps the area where I would disagree the most with you is in the notion that women are basically identical with men.
I just don’t see it that way. None of the women I’ve ever known have exhibited that desire either. I’ve been blessed by many women who would find that notion appalling. They like(d) being a woman. They embraced and found joy in that difference and they did not want to pretend they were men.
But I know there are many other women who oppose that and do believe and want to be seen as identical with men.
 
Perhaps the area where I would disagree the most with you is in the notion that women are basically identical with men.
I just don’t see it that way. None of the women I’ve ever known have exhibited that desire either. I’ve been blessed by many women who would find that notion appalling. They like(d) being a woman. They embraced and found joy in that difference and they did not want to pretend they were men.
But I know there are many other women who oppose that and do believe and want to be seen as identical with men.
Where have I said that women are identical to men? I have said women are equally capable, intelligent, and creative. Do you disagree?

For the record, I love being a woman. I’m very happy being a wife and stay at home mother. I don’t want to be my husband, I want to be married to him.
 
Where have I said that women are identical to men?
That seemed to be your opinion thus far and I haven’t seen anything you’ve said that would indicate otherwise.
I have said women are equally capable, intelligent, and creative. Do you disagree?
As I said, I don’t agree with you that men and women are identical - so with that, there’s no way to establish an equivalency in all things. Women are different than men. Equality is the wrong word when it comes to something like “capability in all things”. We might as well just say “identical in all things”.
For the record, I love being a woman. I’m very happy being a wife and stay at home mother. I don’t want to be my husband, I want to be married to him.
That is good to know. Then again, you may not consciously want to be your husband, but certain attitudes can take us in a direction we didn’t intend. What I’m saying is that your husband may have a different perspective on it.

I just finished doing some brief reading – googled “feminism and the divorce rate in the U.S.”. There’s quite a lot on that topic also. There is something called “new age feminism”, which is even more hostile to men, and in this case, declares that marriage itself is oppressive by nature. That’s more of the same – going farther from God’s plan and causing more damage.

Again, I’m very blessed to know some very young women (in their 20s) who find feminism to be an evil. I’m sure Betty Friedan would call them ungrateful, but social movements can actually peak and then regress over time.
 
That’s the result of feminism - a desired goal. Make men have a womanish attitude towards everything and supposedly everything will work out nicely.
But it’s killing vocations, for one thing - and neutering our parishes of masculine leadership.
There are approximately 17,300 parishes and you have not taken an adequate survey, so please don’t hold out your opinion as anything other than your imagination. I have seen parishes in North Dakota, Montana, Washington, California, and multiples in Oregon, and not one of them is being neutered, of masculine leadership.
I’ve known several seminarians (some now priests) who have complained about this very thing. God has established a celibate, male priesthood and there are certain social and spiritual dynamics that go along with that concept that will either foster it or harm it.
God did not establish a celibate male priesthood.

God established a priesthood, and for 2,000 years +/- there have been celibate clergy and married clergy; in the Roman rite there have been married clergy for almost half of the life of the Church, and the Roman rite this day has married clergy - priests (I am not referring to the several thousand married deacons).

Your attitude is showing.
 
I think it’s more than just respect for women. I think it’s also (in is purest sense) an understanding that women are just as capable and intelligent and creative as men and that women have much to contribute to politics and economics and other fields that were for a very long time solely the purview of men.

I agree, every mentally healthy person should want this! I think some reject the feminist label because they associate it with ideologies that emerged during the sexual revolution that are sinful and wrong. I do think the movement itself started as a reaction to something that was also wrong, though: a stifling of feminine genius. It may seem obvious to you that woman are not inferior to men and that omen should be encouraged to respond to God’s call even if it means working outside the home, but for a long time in the United States this was not the case. In many places in the world, it is still not possible for women to move about freely without a male chaperone.
Amen, sister!

Oh! 😊 That might be interpreted as approving radical feminism by some. 🤷
 
That seemed to be your opinion thus far and I haven’t seen anything you’ve said that would indicate otherwise.
I don’t believe men and women are identical. So you and I are in agreement on that point.

Equality is the wrong word when it comes to something like “capability in all things”. We might as well just say “identical in all things”.

“Capable” “intelligent” “creative” etc are adjectives that describe gifts that God has given to both males and females. To say that men and women are equally intelligent is to recognize that intelligence is not a gift given solely to men. There are some gifts that are given entirely to one gender or the other (the ability to grow a human being or produce milk; the ability to confect the Eucharist, etc). There are some gifts that seem to be given to one gender in greater proportion than to the other (physical strength, the instinct to nurture, etc). That we also share some gifts (many of which are important for successful public careers) does not make us identical at all.

It’s unclear what position you take on women in politics or academics or the public job sector. If a young woman shows an aptitude and interest in science, is there any reason to suspect she could not be as capable and successful a chemist or surgeon as a man? If she is sociable and good at negotiating and understands the community, is there any reason she shouldn’t run for public office?
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reggieM:
That is good to know. Then again, you may not consciously want to be your husband, but certain attitudes can take us in a direction we didn’t intend. What I’m saying is that your husband may have a different perspective on it.
This is like if I were to say, “reggieM, you may not consciously want to oppress women and restrict their participation in the public sector, but your attitudes can take you in certain directions that you didn’t intend. All I’m saying is that your wife may have a different perspective on it.”

Can you see how presumptuous that sounds? You know nothing about my husband, or me, other than what I’ve written on this thread - none of which contradicts Catholic teaching. If you knew my husband and I in real life, this would become laughable.
 
That seemed to be your opinion thus far and I haven’t seen anything you’ve said that would indicate otherwise.
I don’t believe men and women are identical. So you and I are in agreement on that point.
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reggieM:
Equality is the wrong word when it comes to something like “capability in all things”. We might as well just say “identical in all things”.
“Capable” “intelligent” “creative” etc are adjectives that describe gifts that God has given to both males and females. To say that men and women are equally intelligent is to recognize that intelligence is not a gift given solely to men. There are some gifts that are given entirely to one gender or the other (the ability to grow a human being or produce milk; the ability to confect the Eucharist, etc). There are some gifts that seem to be given to one gender in greater proportion than to the other (physical strength, the instinct to nurture, etc). That we also share some gifts (many of which are important for successful public careers) does not make us identical at all.

It’s unclear what position you take on women in politics or academics or the public job sector. If a young woman shows an aptitude and interest in science, is there any reason to suspect she could not be as capable and successful a chemist or surgeon as a man? If she is sociable and good at negotiating and understands the community, is there any reason she shouldn’t run for public office?
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reggieM:
That is good to know. Then again, you may not consciously want to be your husband, but certain attitudes can take us in a direction we didn’t intend. What I’m saying is that your husband may have a different perspective on it.
This is like if I were to say, “reggieM, you may not consciously want to oppress women and restrict their participation in the public sector, but your attitudes can take you in certain directions that you didn’t intend. All I’m saying is that your wife may have a different perspective on it.”

Can you see how presumptuous that sounds? You know nothing about my husband, or me, other than what I’ve written on this thread - none of which contradicts Catholic teaching. If you knew my husband and I in real life, this would become laughable.
 
There are some gifts that are given entirely to one gender or the other (the ability to grow a human being or produce milk; the ability to confect the Eucharist, etc). There are some gifts that seem to be given to one gender in greater proportion than to the other (physical strength, the instinct to nurture, etc). That we also share some gifts (many of which are important for successful public careers) does not make us identical at all.
 
Rather than close this off entirely, I’ll offer this thought.

I’m involved in a Catholic men’s spirituality group where we support each other in the quest for virtue and service of God. A very big focus for us is how we treat the women in our lives - our wives, loved ones, and women in general. This is essential in developing virtue.

What we know and discuss is that a Catholic gentleman must learn how to be his very best in his treatment of women - and this requires a lot of understanding first of all.

What we learn (and already knew) is there are very significant differences between men and women. A Catholic gentleman will not treat a woman the way he can, justifiably and correctly, treat another man.

This is a counter-cultural approach, but we believe it is what God has taught. We cannot draw an equivalency between men and women. We learn what a man is, we become confident in the role and purpose God has created for men and women. We strive to become godly men - and that means being quite different from godly women.

This idea is very much hated and opposed by the world in general, certainly by feminism – and even by many Catholics today.

But it’s our belief that we have to stand up for this. It takes courage and fortitude and, if you’ll excuse me, a manly approach to change the culture for the good. Many men, like me, have suffered because of feminism and we can see the damage done to men and women as the result of this ideology. So, we work to overcome it as best we can,

That’s some of my background. I don’t want to get into my entire personal story here, but I would just trust that this might be helpful - or perhaps not - I don’t know.
 
I’m obviously going to be biased here since I’m lea and not leo, but…

When some people here say that boys won’t be altar servers because of the female presence…isn’t that worrying? That they need an exclusive Boys club to be interested in something. I don’t know.

I would understand if it’s because there would not be any space for boys, but then again it’s a little upsetting to imagine girls being turned away just because there is a possibility for a future priest if they choose Justin over Justina. I personally wanted to be a server as a child but my country doesn’t allow it and I lost interest in joining a ministry. Even now…I would rather sit in the pews for an hour every Sunday while seeing my brothers up there serving that Mass and then going home right after. 🤷 there are obviously other factors for my lack of interest now but being turned away had a role (It was the only group in my parish that I felt ‘called’ to), so it’s rather difficult for me to support only male servers.

Male/female prayer groups, on the other hand, is different and I would say that it could be more beneficial in encouraging religious vocations.
 
If a boy in a house is acting discouraged from being an altar server because he sees a girl doing it, he should be disciplined for his immaturity and forced to do it by his parents.

If that boy would have become a priest otherwise, better to suffer a vocation crisis than to have such men be priests. The priesthood is not a place for cowards. No place - except hell - is for cowards, but the priesthood certainly not.
 
I personally wanted to be a server as a child but my country doesn’t allow it and I lost interest in joining a ministry. Even now…I would rather sit in the pews for an hour every Sunday while seeing my brothers up there serving that Mass and then going home right after. 🤷 there are obviously other factors for my lack of interest now but being turned away had a role (It was the only group in my parish that I felt ‘called’ to), so it’s rather difficult for me to support only male servers.
I hope you will consider some other ways of joining a ministry and offering service - which the church really needs!
Male/female prayer groups, on the other hand, is different and I would say that it could be more beneficial in encouraging religious vocations.
The concept is similar here. The priesthood has a camaraderie of men and that should not be seen as a bad thing.
 
I hope you will consider some other ways of joining a ministry and offering service - which the church really needs!

The concept is similar here. The priesthood has a camaraderie of men and that should not be seen as a bad thing.
Meh. Other forms of service that are available so far isn’t my cup of tea at all. I had a brief stint as a reader (1st and 2nd readings) but I didn’t enjoy it at all. Some people here might even say girls should not be on the sanctuary at all. I think my ‘service’ would be better suited in the secular world once I’m done with education.

But we are talking about servers, not priesthood. Excluding one gender from carrying out a role is imo unnecessary (obviously besides priesthood, because it’s infallible teaching). Unlike other groups, where it’s possible to have both male and female groups doing the same thing, it seems almost unfair to just forbid girls because there is a possibility that one of them would be inspired enough to be a priest. The association between priest and server seems too rigid. Servers can also be inspired to be in other religious vocations/have a deeper intimacy with God. Things that women can also do.
 
God did not establish a celibate male priesthood.
Perhaps not celibate (hence unmarried priests is a matter of Church discipline) but He did establish an entirely male ministerial priesthood.
 
Some people here might even say girls should not be on the sanctuary at all.
Truer in the old form or the EF.

There will be those who claim the barriers (communion rail, stairs, etc) shouldn’t be there at all.
 
Rather than close this off entirely, I’ll offer this thought.

I’m involved in a Catholic men’s spirituality group where we support each other in the quest for virtue and service of God. A very big focus for us is how we treat the women in our lives - our wives, loved ones, and women in general. This is essential in developing virtue.

What we know and discuss is that a Catholic gentleman must learn how to be his very best in his treatment of women - and this requires a lot of understanding first of all.

What we learn (and already knew) is there are very significant differences between men and women. A Catholic gentleman will not treat a woman the way he can, justifiably and correctly, treat another man.

This is a counter-cultural approach, but we believe it is what God has taught. We cannot draw an equivalency between men and women. We learn what a man is, we become confident in the role and purpose God has created for men and women. We strive to become godly men - and that means being quite different from godly women.

This idea is very much hated and opposed by the world in general, certainly by feminism – and even by many Catholics today.

But it’s our belief that we have to stand up for this. It takes courage and fortitude and, if you’ll excuse me, a manly approach to change the culture for the good. Many men, like me, have suffered because of feminism and we can see the damage done to men and women as the result of this ideology. So, we work to overcome it as best we can,

That’s some of my background. I don’t want to get into my entire personal story here, but I would just trust that this might be helpful - or perhaps not - I don’t know.
The concern with some of this is that, although subtle, it can lead to men who have a problem with women who have authority over them. Which makes it difficult to have the as employees.

But perhaps that’s not what you intend. It just comes across that way.
 
As a priest, I must say this has to be one of the most deplorable posts I have read on this forum and that is saying much

First, thinking back to the parish where I was baptised and confirmed, that parish has given more or less 25 priests to the Church in something over the past seven decades to which I can give witness. That is a splendid statistic for a parish. However, that parish had THOUSANDS of Altar Servers across those decades

The corps of altar servers should never be treated as though it is a pass through to priesthood. It is a thing of itself, the vast majority of whom do not become priests or consider priesthood

Most of us who are priests served Mass in youth. But we’re very aware that we may be the only ones from the whole period when we served who even considered the priesthood

Women and girls have served my Masses since the clarification of canon 230 in 1994…and they’re most welcomed. Also welcomed to serve are adult men who are married. I did insist, before I retired, that only those who want to be there of their own desire would be allowed in the sanctuary

Second “If they see the priest as a man surrounding himself (often not through choice) and chatting with a bunch of old women, is that likely to be seen as an inspirational male role model for a young boy?” is a statement so ugly, so grotesque, it is to be condemned…and in the strongest terms

For this once upon a time young boy of decades long past, it was the “old women” so active in the service of the parish who taught me about the care of the sacristy from top to bottom and one end to the other – the linens, the vestments, flower arranging for the sanctuary, the whole lot…and they did it well enough that I was sacristan of the seminary from my first year…applying perspiration linen guards with needle and thread on stoles and chasubles among many other duties that I had learned from these “old women”. What they taught me served me in very good stead

These “old women,” as a group, were moreover the ones who set up burses to underwrite the seminary students educational expenses. Others of that parish contributed from time to time, to be sure, but these “old women” organised themselves specifically for that purpose. They were heroes to all seminarians directly helped by them – and cherished by those who had not needed the help but appreciated their incredible generosity in favour of priestly vocations

With the reform and the renewal of the liturgy, I’m delighted that those who have long been the most devoted to the parishes behind the scenes have the opportunity to do different forms of ministry according to their tastes…from traditional sacristy type work or religious education to serving Mass, lectoring, as well as distributing the Eucharist at Mass or in hospitals or to the home-bound. And that is something that should be modeled to every young person – because that is the reality of the Church at the parish and diocesan level

Third, moving from days long past as a seminarian to when I was ordained to when I was a formator, the ones I was most leery of were those “encouraged” to consider a vocation. Immediately behind them, however, were those who were simply delusional about what was really our life, either in seminary or post-seminary – they lived in a sort of Romantic delirium

Those whom a parish priest will mostly work with are women. And that is becoming more true, not less true, as women’s roles in the Church expand
  • Women diocesan chancery officials
  • Women seminary professors
  • Women canonists
  • Women theologians
  • Women employed by the parish offices and religious education programme
Fourth, since seminarians spend significant time in parish assignments throughout the course of their studies and from the beginning, as part of the diocese’s discernment if this man has a vocation at all, those responsible assess a seminarian’s ability to work with the various people and situations he will be paired with in assignments as a measure of what to expect when and if he is eventually called to ordination

Fifth as far as a comparison to either the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter or the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest…the former has some 300 priests incardinated. For the perspective of Americans, that is less than half the number of priests incardinated in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles – and the United States has approximately 200 dioceses. And that is one country. The number I gave is their total for the whole world. And they have existed for almost thirty years

The latter institute is significantly smaller that the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter…less than a hundred priests incardinated. We have abbeys with more priests than there are priests incardinated in the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest. But then, these societies only serve those attached to the vetus ordo, which is an infinitesimal number when compared with the statistics of the rest of a diocese
Thank you Father for adding some much needed common sense to this topic!
 
And pray tell me: What is wrong with a bunch of middle-aged and elderly women? Are we fools to be insulted in such a way?

Grandma’s have wonderful influence on boys especially when men don’t step up to the job. Don’t blame women - especially grandmas - because men do not come up to do their responsibilities.
I apologise if I caused you any offence, it was not my intention. Of course there is nothing wrong with middle-aged or elderly women.

I guess I was trying to make, in a rather clumsy way, a point about boys not beimg attracted to what seems to have become an environment dominated by women. Perhaps, as you say, men aren’t stepping up to the plate which is of course unfortunate. Why is that though?

You have my apologies for my clumsy remark, and my apologies also go to anyone else who was offended.
 
Perhaps, as you say, men aren’t stepping up to the plate which is of course unfortunate. Why is that though?.
Because in many circles of society, there is a hyper-masculinity that is toxic to boys, where the male is less in the image of Christ and more in the image of a dog.
  • Having children and being absent from the hearth or not having a family at all (and not for spiritual reasons)
  • Fist-bumping buddies and saying “bro” when you’re in your 30s, 40s, or 50s.
  • Wearing clothing that is 1-2 sizes too large for you.
  • Feeling awkward volunteering in different capacities because that is too maternal.
  • Avoiding work; avoiding education (women are the predominate demographic in universities)
  • Playing video games 8 hours per day
And finally: being proud of all of the above.

It is a hyper-masculinity. It prevents men from being in touch with their feminine side in a healthy kind of way; for a devotion & love to the Blessed Virgin and a devotion to the Church. With this mentality embedded in them, it’s not that they won’t step up in service, it is that they can’t step up in service. The toxic interior life that they’ve adopted prevents them from doing so.

There are a variety of reasons for why this has become pandemic. The primary reason is the sexual revolution and by default, the crisis this has caused upon manhood, fatherhood, and brotherhood.

What is most certainly not a reason is that girls and women have become altar service and volunteers in other ways. To say that an act of service is correlated to something that is harmful to the Church is not only absurd, but also deplorable. Service is not a zero sum game. There is always something to be done. Those who do serve should be encouraged and loved, not criticized for allegedly being in the way or because of their sex. Long before women became enabled in a more official capacity in society, they were the quiet brick & mortar of the Church. Pagan kings - and then their kingdoms - were converted through the charisms of Christian women.
 
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