Francis: ‘Whoever judges and scorns others is corrupt and a hypocrite’

  • Thread starter Thread starter cmorisset
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
irishpatrick said:
That is a rather harsh and judgmental slam. 🤷

The Bible is filled with passages that speak about informing others of their sins in order to entice them to repentance and to perhaps help them receive salvation.

We can forgive actions and sins committed against us, and we are called to do so. However, how exactly does a sinner know they are sinning if they are never told?
Click to expand...
Harsh and judgemental? I thought it was a loving act of mercy. How would you know that your unwillingness to focus on fixing your own sinfulness before worrying about others’ sins is wrong if no one ever tells you?
 
1neophyte said:
Harsh and judgemental? I thought it was a loving act of mercy. How would you know that your unwillingness to focus on fixing your own sinfulness before worrying about others’ sins is wrong if no one ever tells you?
Click to expand...
I was being sarcastic and revealing the hypocrisy in your post. 🙂

We are not to worry about the sins of others before we worry about our own. But we are NOT to ignore the sins of those around us – that is NOT a loving act.
 
irishpatrick said:
We are not to worry about the sins of others before we worry about our own. But we are NOT to ignore the sins of those around us – that is NOT a loving act.
Click to expand...
So when Jesus said, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do,” at the same moment he was absorbing the brunt of “their” unrepentant sin, it wasn’t an act of love? Or was it THE act of love? You’re obstinately trying to apply a human logic to the forgiveness we’re called to, and it cannot be done. You either accept it or you don’t.

A good analogy is a family. A good parent is very clear in reprimanding his or her child when the child commits a “sin.” But that same good parent is likely to be very upset if the child’s brother or sister takes it upon themselves to do the parent’s job of “informing” their sibling of wrongdoing.

And if we think that God cannot change someone’s heart unless we volunteer our help, we delude ourselves.
 
1neophyte said:
So when Jesus said, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do,” at the same moment he was absorbing the brunt of “their” unrepentant sin, it wasn’t an act of love? Or was it THE act of love? You’re obstinately trying to apply a human logic to the forgiveness we’re called to, and it cannot be done. You either accept it or you don’t.
Click to expand...
Jesus provided THE ultimate act of love. We agree 100% on that.

I am not trying to apply human logic, I am trying to apply 2,000 years of Church teaching and Biblical truths to this situation. Admonishing the sinner is both an act of love, and a mandate for Christians. It is just a reality that many today will not do because they are afraid to come across as judgmental.

The point is simple: we are not supposed to admonish others for their sins if we are in the midst of our own sins. We are to clean up our own spiritual life before we can rightly call others to do the same.
 
1neophyte said:
So when Jesus said, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do,” at the same moment he was absorbing the brunt of “their” unrepentant sin, it wasn’t an act of love? Or was it THE act of love? You’re obstinately trying to apply a human logic to the forgiveness we’re called to, and it cannot be done. You either accept it or you don’t.

A good analogy is a family. A good parent is very clear in reprimanding his or her child when the child commits a “sin.” But that same good parent is likely to be very upset if the child’s brother or sister takes it upon themselves to do the parent’s job of “informing” their sibling of wrongdoing.

And if we think that God cannot change someone’s heart unless we volunteer our help, we delude ourselves.
Click to expand...
You make my point. The parents in your scenario are acting as good Christians by admonishing their sinning child. The reason the sibling cannot do so is simple: in nearly all cases where that would happen the siblings are not yet formed well enough in the faith to properly admonish their own sibling.
 
irishpatrick said:
The point is simple: we are not supposed to admonish others for their sins if we are in the midst of our own sins. We are to clean up our own spiritual life before we can rightly call others to do the same.
Click to expand...
Have you met anyone with a sufficiently cleaned-up spiritual life worthy of passing judgement on someone? Are you such a person?
 
irishpatrick said:
You make my point. The parents in your scenario are acting as good Christians by admonishing their sinning child. The reason the sibling cannot do so is simple: in nearly all cases where that would happen the siblings are not yet formed well enough in the faith to properly admonish their own sibling.
Click to expand...
I put “sins” in quotes for a reason. It was an analogy, not a straightforward scenario. We are all the siblings, and God is the parent.
 
1neophyte said:
Have you met anyone with a sufficiently cleaned-up spiritual life worthy of passing judgement on someone? Are you such a person?
Click to expand...
None of us in this life are perfect, yet some are more mature spiritually than others. I did not say a person must be perfect to admonish another – but everyone should accept the admonishment of others.
 
irishpatrick said:
None of us in this life are perfect, yet some are more mature spiritually than others. I did not say a person must be perfect to admonish another – but everyone should accept the admonishment of others.
Click to expand...
If everyone should accept admonishment, then what do you make of those who reject the admonishment of The Pope? Is that a sign of spiritual maturity?
 
1neophyte said:
I put “sins” in quotes for a reason. It was an analogy, not a straightforward scenario. We are all the siblings, and God is the parent.
Click to expand...
The scenario still holds. Parents are called to admonish their children for the sins they commit. If not the parents, then how will the children ever know?

God has not created a race of robots. We do have free will and we do freely sin. God does not force us not to sin, nor does He force us to sin (obviously). We are to help each attain Heaven–we are NOT supposed to ignore the sorry state of those around us. Sometimes the best we can do is pray–while other times we can develop a relationship deep enough to speak to the person about their sins.
 
1neophyte said:
If everyone should accept admonishment, then what do you make of those who reject the admonishment of The Pope? Is that a sign of spiritual maturity?
Click to expand...
Well, only Catholics will be sensitive to what the Pope says, so out of the gate we are speaking only of about 1/6 of the planet’s population. However, yes, Catholics should always listen to and accept the Pope’s admonishment if it directly applies to them.
 
irishpatrick said:
The scenario still holds. Parents are called to admonish their children for the sins they commit. If not the parents, then how will the children ever know?

God has not created a race of robots. We do have free will and we do freely sin. God does not force us not to sin, nor does He force us to sin (obviously). We are to help each attain Heaven–we are NOT supposed to ignore the sorry state of those around us. Sometimes the best we can do is pray–while other times we can develop a relationship deep enough to speak to the person about their sins.
Click to expand...
Parents are. Siblings are not. This thread is about Pope Francis admonishing people against speaking about others’ sins without the deep relationship you describe, and those who question his authority because they don’t like his admonition.
 
1neophyte said:
Parents are. Siblings are not. This thread is about Pope Francis admonishing people against speaking about others’ sins without the deep relationship you describe, and those who question his authority because they don’t like his admonition.
Click to expand...
I agree that is what this thread is about. I read it a bit differently than perhaps others do. I believe the Holy Spirit is trying to tell us (through Pope Francis) that we should clean up our own spiritual house so that we can rightly admonish others.

You see, today, we have two huge problems (regarding the subject). 1. Many, many people are committing grave sins all the time. 2. Because so many are committing grave sins, they do not feel as if they can admonish anyone for their sins because they are busily committing their own sins. That is like a rat chasing its tail and the only way to break the circular problem is for people to start cleaning up their own spiritual life so that they can then admonish others (using love, not a hammer).

Notice what the Pope said: "Whoever believes themselves just and judges others and scorns them is corrupt and a hypocrite,” ---- If we believe ourselves to be just, or above others, than we have no business admonishing or judging others. Yet, make no mistake, the Pope judges and admonishes all the time–yet he does so with love and with the idea that we are all sinners and he includes himself in that sinner category. No one wants to be beaten with a verbal hammer for their sins–it must be a loving act, or else it become counter-productive.
 
1neophyte,

Many times when the Pope says things that are difficult to understand, what I do is take it up another level and ask, “what is the Holy Spirit trying to say through the Pope?” Using that method, I have found many difficult statements by the Pope are far easier to understand when considered from that light. Just my two cents worth. 👍

In this case, I use that same method. I believe that the Holy Spirit is telling us (through Pope Francis) that we are called to clean-up our spiritual house so that we can rightly, and lovingly, admonish others. Right now there are so few people with an even moderately clean spiritual house that almost no one ever admonishes others for their sins–and we see the consequence of that in all the horrible things that are popping-up all around us.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top