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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
So you can’t be “rude” for the Lord?
Francis: ‘Whoever judges and scorns others is corrupt and a hypocrite’
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pnewton
Guest
One thing I have learned here is that some people are very proficient at it. If the “you” used means me, I can be, but will not be.
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1neophyte
Guest
In just two sentences, you have both convicted and inspired me profoundly. Thank you.
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Pulvis
Guest
Seems to me that this whole exercise in ‘Judge Not’ is an error of the Protestant type, i.e. taking scripture out of context without looking at the totality of the message and the historical setting. Obviously we have to make judgments. We make judgments every day in regards to avoiding sinful settings and behaviors. As well as avoiding sinful people who could put us in a near occasion of sin. Obviously a rightly formed conscience is a necessity to be able to judge rightly. There are numerous examples of right judgment throughout the Bible. I think I understand what the Holy Father is stating, and given His background I think i understand his take on this. My personal opinions are just that, personal, but i fail to see how using right judgment is against the perennial teaching of the Church.
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abucs
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pnewton
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I do not know what you are referencing by “this whole exercise”, but the Pope is not a Protestant and expounding on the Scripture of the day during a homily is his job, and that of every priest. That passage does mean something. It cannot be nuanced into meaninglessness. I believe most people here have been careful about distinguishing between judgment of actions and judgment of people. The Pope was referring to the latter (note the word “others”).
Perhaps some posts have failed to make this distinction.
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Pulvis
Guest
I understand perfectly what the Holy Father was discussing. What is at the core of this is an extraction from the Scripture selection that requires us to never judge another individual regardless of their actions, lifestyle or situation. I find, again just my opinion, this to be open to disagreement when the totality of the Gospels, Epistles and perinial teaching of the Church would suggest otherwise. We must use right judgement as to whom we associate with, what organizations we affiliate with, and what we accept as proper teaching of the Faith. Perhaps ‘judge’ is not the best word for this. And i totally agree with the Holy Father as to scornful feelings or actions. We should correct and council using humility and a humble spirit.
The spiritual works of mercy are:
To instruct the ignorant;
To counsel the doubtful;
To admonish sinners;
To bear wrongs patiently;
To forgive offences willingly;
To comfort the afflicted;
To pray for the living and the dead.
As far as i know, these are still part of the Faith.
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pnewton
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Perhaps not. Defining terms often leaves people talking past each other. How about judging actions and discerning that a person needs to be instructed, or even admonished, and that you are in a tactically sound position from which to profitably do this.
No, this sort of work of mercy is not what the Holy Father was speaking of. The context of the parable is more about the scorn and pride that lead to judgment.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
I am left in wonderment.
When you read what the Pope said, it is the address he gives in his general audience every Wednesday. The week before, it was the parable of the judge and the widow. In this instance, this is an exposition on the Pharisee and the Publican. He explains why the prayer of the Pharisee is not heard and why the prayer of the Publican is heard. It is very straight forward.
w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/audiences/2016/documents/papa-francesco_20160601_udienza-generale.html
Frankly, as a priest and theologian, I am horrified and actually outraged that there are Catholics who dare to presume to be able to judge the content of the Pope’s addresses at all – absolutely least of all when they are neither a member of the hierarchy nor a theologian.
The actual content of this address is quite thought provoking.
The Pope’s analysis is a severe warning for indeed there are Catholics who have far more about their mien and ways the air of the Pharisee than the air of the Publican, who, as the Pope said, “becomes an icon of the true believer”.
Such Catholics as behave in a way the Pope warns against run the same risk as the Pharisees themselves: the Lord announcing that the people they condemn and shun are admitted to the Kingdom of Heaven while they are the ones who stand condemned. As the Lord said, the measure with which you measure is the measure which will be measured back to you. That should give everyone just pause.
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1neophyte
Guest
Preach!
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TCEL
Guest
I too think this thread is making a mountain out of a molehill. But while I don’t have much comment on the rest of your post, I admit I’m taken aback that a Priest is outraged by laymen trying to judge the contents of their Pope’s addresses. Maybe we have different working definitions of judge. I mainly understand it as an attempt at analysis. I guess I think Pope Francis is so approachable that he, of all people, would welcome dialogue and even debate with laymen. If I may be so bold, I’d wager he prefer that over theological debate.
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
So by your standards, Elijah sinned.
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pete_29
Guest
I wonder how many see this and think " I can do anything I want and no one can say I’m wrong". I guess I’ll go cheat on my wife. Who’s to say I’m wrong? Only Hypocrites I guess. 
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JosieN
Guest
I have not been following the comments on this thread and this question may have already been asked, but as I don’t have time to read all the comments I will ask it anyway.
If I saw a person committing a crime like stealing cash from someone’s purse when they were not looking. If I do not judge his actions as wrong, I have no right to say anything to him or the right to stop him. If I scorn him or tell the person who owns the purse of his actions, am I judging him? Where is the line drawn?
If I saw a person committing a crime like stealing cash from someone’s purse when they were not looking. If I do not judge his actions as wrong, I have no right to say anything to him or the right to stop him. If I scorn him or tell the person who owns the purse of his actions, am I judging him? Where is the line drawn?
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irenaeus1
Guest
Frankly, as a layman, I am horrified and actually outraged that there are priests and theologians who dare to presume that unless one is a member of the hierarchy or a theologian, they are in no way qualified to judge or question the content of the Pope’s addresses at all.
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1neophyte
Guest
I honestly can’t believe that anyone is incapable of answering this question on their own with simple common sense, but here you go:
Telling someone they are wrong for stealing the money, or trying to stop them or warn the victim =
Deciding not to hire someone for your business because they have a history of theft =
Sitting around with your friends and gleefully attacking someone’s character because they have a history of theft, without ever acknowledging your own history of sinfulness and wrongdoing =
This isn’t rocket science. I don’t understand the relentless rebellion and questioning of Jesus’ teaching on this matter. A couple of years ago in my city, a young boy was killed in a drive-by shooting. The very next day the boy’s mother was interviewed on the news and she publicly forgave her son’s killer. That is the gospel. Was she justifying the killer’s actions or denying his sinfulness? No. She was simply and heroically obeying Jesus’ most difficult command. This woman was not Catholic; she was a part of one of those “heretical” denominations, but she totally got it. Why can’t those who claim to have the “fullness of truth” get it?
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
The Pope’s statement seemed to me to be more about Arrogance than judging.I wonder how many see this and think " I can do anything I want and no one can say I’m wrong". I guess I’ll go cheat on my wife. Who’s to say I’m wrong? Only Hypocrites I guess.
“It’s not enough to ask ourselves how much we pray,” Francis told the crowds in the square for the audience. “We must also ask ourselves how we pray, or better, how is out heart? It is important to examine it to value its thoughts, its sentiments and to eradicate arrogance and hypocrisy.”
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
Well, I look upon the matter rather like undergoing a medical procedure by someone who never went to medical school. Such a person may have some thought in their head but I wouldn’t pay to hear it much less rely on their non existent expertise to carry out something.
Most of the critiques I encounter about Pope Francis since his election, I would have expected even one of my second year theology students to deconstruct, piece by piece, and hand it back to the offending person.
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pnewton
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You do not know my standards, whatever that means. But then if you do not understand my standards, then perhaps you should not presume to criticize the Holy Father. The differences between Elijah and the Pharisee at the Temple are many. This is why we have homilies.
But for the record, I have no doubt Elijah sinned, along with Moses, David, and pretty much every other OT Patriarch, apostle, and Saint.
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pnewton
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Whether one is a priest, or a layman, judging the Pope, or one’s priest, the level of one’s understanding of the principles of exegesis, and all that this entails, is what equips one to understand Scripture, just like the knowledge of moral theology helps in understand statements of morality. I assure you, Don, there are many laity that are knowledgeable enough to unpack what the Pope is saying here. I see the problem is, that we find ourselves questioning something the Holy Father is saying, or first reaction is to question him, criticize him, or disagree with him. Instead, if we treat instruction from the Holy Father like we do formation of conscience, our first reaction should be to question ourselves, find out if there is some lack of knowledge, training or linguistic skill we lack. People are not even capable of filtering what the news picks out of the Pope’s speech more often than not, or even take the full context of a single sentence, much less a parable or a homily. Look at and the focus here on judging and how the scorn and the spiritual pride of the Pharisee has been neglected.
I do not know Don, sometimes I wonder if you are right. Maybe we are too American in our opinions. I hypothesize that in America, the strength of one’s opinions is directly proportional to the ignorance we have on a subject.
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