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AlNg
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I don’t quite see that because isn’t a Jesuit in charge of the Magisterium today, leading the whole Church as the Supreme Pontiff and Holy Father?
Francis - the socialist pope?
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Randolph
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I disagree with you. I, along with millions of people from many nations in the last 100 years, know socialism too well and know its dangers, and how it has destroyed people and nations. I threw no nations under the bus. It’s unfortunate that you took it that way. Socialism did devastate these countries, and innocent people were victimized by the failed and oppressive system. Venezuela sadly has become socialism’s latest victim. Pope Francis’ personal and political views are his. I will obey him in matters of faith and moral, and honor and respect him as the Holy Father—the Vicar of Christ on earth. Charity is a central part of our catholic faith, and we must do our part to honor it. But socialism is certainly not the answer. It creates more and bigger problems.
For the sake of charity, let’s move on. You may have the last words.
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Thanks for all the replies.
I enjoy this debate, which shows that loyal Catholics can differ.
I agree, thank God, that CAF is neutral on topics not contrary to the Church. Let the debate continue. ‘We can be free and we can sing, let freedom ring’.
I agree we should pray for the Pope, but let us pray for all, especially those of the household of the faith.
The Church is universal, people differ in views. and in CAF debates, within conditions, are healthy. Thus seeing Catholics only as US conservatives is incorrect.
Eleven states in the US (Oregon, Nevada, Arkansas, New Jersey, Maryland, Tennessee, New York, Rhode Island, Delaware, Kentucky, and Indiana) already have free higher state education, I do not think education in these is inferior to other states. Also there is free state education in the U.S. Military Academy, U.S. Air Force Academy, U.S. Naval Academy, U.S. Coast Guard Academy and U.S. Merchant Marine Academy, none of these have are inferior to many private universities.
Texas A & M and the University of California are state supported, as are many other US universities which are not inferior to private institutions.
I also see 'In 2013, about 87% of school-age attended state funded public schools, about 10% attended tuition- and foundation-funded private schools. So state education is popular in the US.
There is also state health care in the US, e.g. the Vaccines for Children (VFC) Program. The federal government pays $1.5 trillion on health per annum.
Countries in Northern Europe, with socialist in government, do nor have very bad health care or education.
This morning at Mass the sermon was on Social Justice. The Catholic Church on earth, under, Pope Francis, is a Social assembly (people of God, mystical body) made up of sinners who support each other.
If Pope Francis has some socialist views it is no bad thing, since even the US is socialist, where the people, through the state, supports the common good.
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Randolph
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Free education, free healthcare, etc… are NOT free. This has been a false bill of sale (a fallacy) being sold to the public. Somebody have to pay for them. The central issue here is whether you let individuals handle their own finances and therefore be responsible for themselves, or you entrust the government with it. The US federal government alone (not including states) government runs an annual deficit of around $1,000,000,000,000 (one trillion) in recent years. The current US national debt is almost $22,000,000,000,000 (22 trillion). In a few decades, it is estimated that the US will not be able to pay social security benefits to retirees.
Now, per year, if you add in free higher education, you add tens of billions of dollars. Free healthcare—hundreds of billions more per year. You can tax the rich and companies at 100% tax rate and confiscate all of their assets and property. You can only pay the government bills for at most a few years. Then, what would be left of the country? Where would the money come from to pay for all the bills and debts? Where would the jobs come from? Who would employ people? Who would create jobs and innovation??
Socialism will not just stop with free higher education and free healthcare. The demands for more free stuff will not stop—free housing, free transportation, free annual incomes, etc… You are now talking adding trillions more per year to the deficit. We have yet even talked about the energy new deal. The US would not be able to function and face its own demise.
The inability to pay for free stuff (ultimately the false and empty promises) and the inefficiency/incompetence/corruption of government are the reasons socialism failed in many nations and destroyed lives in the past 100 years. Venezuela is socialism’s latest victim. When the government gets too big—big brother emerges and ushers totalitarianism.
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Randolph
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I fail to understand why Pope Francis chose to get himself into this political mess. Yes, we are to be good stewards of God’s creation; we are to be respectful of our environment; we are to keep our homes and communities clean; we are not to waste our natural resources… Pope Francis could have stated all those sentiments without exposing himself to being used. But when Pope Francis made the statement about climate change being the number one problem in the world today, he availed himself (and by extension the Catholic Church) to being used and to being politicized by the radical, extreme left. They have already used him to aid the advancement of their radical agenda—among which are to advance their pro-abortion and pro-population control agenda. I would think, being Vicar of Christ on earth, his number one concern would be the salvation of souls.
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Randolph
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People need to get informed about the failed experiment with socialism in Sweden. It was a disaster. Sweden has since moved toward a market-based economy and lower taxes…
Excerpts from the article:
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Sweden stood as the world’s fourth wealthiest country nearly five decades ago. Its taxes were lower than most western countries, including the United States. The economy was deregulated, and public spending was hardly above 10 percent gross domestic product (GDP).
But Sweden was soon teetering on the brink of collapse from its experiment with socialism.
“Free markets and small government made Sweden rich,” said Swedish economist and Cato Institute fellow Johan Norberg. “The experiment with socialism crashed us.”
No one guessed the system would crash. The country was ripe for a socialist experiment in the early 1970s. The Swedes were hardworking, optimistic, wealthy, and trusting of their politicians. As programs were implemented in the ’70s and ’80s, public spending almost doubled and labor markets became regulated. The new welfare state, however, appeared to enhance Sweden’s already strong economy with large-scale redistribution and high taxes.
Reversing Sweden’s traditions of small government and an open economy disintegrated its successful business climate. Big companies like IKEA either evaded taxes or left the country. Athletes like Björn Borg and entrepreneurs fled the country. High inflation raged and not a single net job was created in the private sector.
The new generation raised in socialism had no incentives to work. The once healthy population began calling in sick because of the generous benefits for sick days. They shamelessly accepted the public benefits.
The system began crashing after debt-fueled inflation in the ’80s. The ’90s were stained with a massive economic crisis. Banks were on the brink of collapse and, for a brief moment, the Central Bank had 500 percent interest rates to defend the Swedish currency.
Sweden agreed that socialism was not working. In fact, it was a disaster.
The 30-year experiment “was a brief interlude of failure,” Norberg said. To reform and save its economy, Sweden reverted back to its capitalist structure. It reduced public spending by a third, demolished taxes on property and inheritance, and reduced taxes in other areas.
Swedish healthcare became regionally run and funded by local state tax. Overconsumption had created long hospital lines depriving those with urgent needs of immediate attention. These kinds of inefficiencies of the universal…
As Gunnar Myrdal, a social economist who inspired the building of the welfare state, said, “If it doesn’t work in Sweden, it won’t work anywhere.” The distribution of wealth is unsustainable. The Sweden that Americans ought to study exemplifies an open economy and free market. Our model must be Swedish capitalism and not the forever failing model of socialism.
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StudentMI
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See this is the kind of decentralization that might work in the US. Not federally run health care but local solutions.
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blackforest
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I don’t think that was the point. The point is that something as ancient and enduring as our Mother Church cannot be boxed into the narrow confines of western political labels.
And since you asked, one is not allowed to be pro-New England Patriots. I’ve petitioned the Magisterium to look into this particular sin and address it in the catechism.
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AlNg
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That is true. Elizabeth Warren now says that housing is a human right and other candidates want a guaranteed annual income. Seems like a great idea, especially for those who cannot find jobs:
free higher education, free medical, free healthcare, free annual income, free housing, free internet, free computers and smartphones, free food stamps, guaranteed job, what is there not to like?
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StudentMI
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It gets more extreme as the days go by. And more economically irresponsible.
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phil19034
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Yes. “Democratic socialism” is still socialism.Elias:
Would that include democratic socialism?
The problem with socialism is that is 100% against the Catholic notion of subsidiarity, undermines the dignity of work, doesn’t respect private property, etc. Whether it is democratically installed or by force doesn’t change the root of what socialism is.
Let’s remember that socialism is NOT the same as real liberalism and/or real progressivism. However, socialists HAVE hidden behind liberalism & progressivism in the West for decades.
Here is a 4 minute video on “democratic socialism”
Democratic Socialism Is Still Socialism | PragerU
What is democratic socialism? What makes it different than regular socialism? Has it been tried? Could it work in the United States? Comedian and political…
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phil19034
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- Pope Francis is NOT a socialist nor a “democratic socialist.”
- Democratic Socialism is still inherently evil. This world’s first “democratic socialists” were the Russian Bolsheviks, led by Vladimir Lenin.
- Per Popes Leo XII, Pius IX AND John XXIII, Catholics cannot be socialists (even moderate ones)
Pope Francis is more of distributionist. If Pope Francis was a ‘democratic socialist’ then he would not be Catholic - per St. Pope John XXIII
Here is a good article about what distributism is: What is Distributism? A Controversial Alternative to Socialism and Plutocracy
And here is a four minute, secular video that explains why “democratic socialism” is still socialism.
Democratic Socialism Is Still Socialism | PragerU
What is democratic socialism? What makes it different than regular socialism? Has it been tried? Could it work in the United States? Comedian and political…
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I get confused. Are you saying the US is a socialist country?
In Ireland those over the age of 66 get free travel and I appreciate my travel pass. My brother-in-law, who lived in the US for years and his American wife, who are great Trump supporters, also love their free travel. I also love my free medication for various illnesses.
A high proportion of the largest and more populous states are socialist, including China, India and Russia, while very many other countries are at least partially socialist.
The health care in many of these are not very inferior to the US.
I note:
The top 10 countries with the highest average life expectancies forecasted for 2040 are:
- Spain - 85.8 years.
- Japan - 85.7 years.
- Singapore - 85.4 years.
- Switzerland - 85.2 years.
- Portugal - 84.5 years.
- Italy - 84.5 years.
- Israel - 84.4 years.
- France - 84.3 years.
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Randolph
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No, the US has been a capitalist country—not socialist. The current democratic front runner for president—Bernie Sanders—is a self professed democratic socialist. He has promised healthcare (Medicare) for all (costing trillions of dollars of per year) free higher education (costing in billions of dollars per year), student debts forgiveness (around one trillion dollars). the energy new deal (tens of trillions per year) would eliminate all gas or fuel operating machines (all cars, trucks, airplanes, etc…) Sanders promises a revolutionary change in the US. Where is the money to pay for all of them??? If his plans are implemented, the US would quickly become another Venezuela.
Life expectancy is a useful data to examine. But there are many factors that go into it—-diet, genes, the environment, cultural behaviors, personal habits, etc… The US with over 300 million in population probably the most diverse country in earth.
Have you ever received healthcare in India, China or Russia?? I am friends with people from India and China. I can assure you that they don’t agree with you.
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StudentMI
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There is a theory called modern monetary theory, or MMT, that I believe is gaining traction. However the threat of inflation from such spending is real. One critic even said MMT doesn’t have a coherent explanation for inflation.
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phil19034
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First & foremost - the reason the American life expectancy is falling compared to these nations is because we CHOOSE to live less healthy lives than in these nations. The diets of MANY Americans are HORRIBLE compared to every nation on this list. We Americans FAR TOO MANY sugars & carbs vs the nations on this list. It’s not that they have better medical facilities & programs; it’s that the American diet sucks because we’re SPOILED.Randolph:
I get confused. Are you saying the US is a socialist country?
In Ireland those over the age of 66 get free travel and I appreciate my travel pass. My brother-in-law, who lived in the US for years and his American wife, who are great Trump supporters, also love their free travel. I also love my free medication for various illnesses.
A high proportion of the largest and more populous states are socialist, including China, India and Russia, while very many other countries are at least partially socialist.
The health care in many of these are not very inferior to the US.
I note:
The top 10 countries with the highest average life expectancies forecasted for 2040 are:
The US, where life expectancy may be falling, is not in this list.
- Spain - 85.8 years.
- Japan - 85.7 years.
- Singapore - 85.4 years.
- Switzerland - 85.2 years.
- Portugal - 84.5 years.
- Italy - 84.5 years.
- Israel - 84.4 years.
- France - 84.3 years.
When you visit these nations, you will NOT see the hundreds of sugary cereals, etc for kids. Their diets are based PRIMARILY on their native/ethnic foods which are FAR BETTER than the typical American diet. All of them eat lots of fish, lots of veggies, and SMALL portions. Even the Italians as the typical “Italian food” in America (large pasta only dishes) is NOT what Italians in Italy typically eat.
So this is based on differences of our CULTURE, not ECONOMY.
Now - on to the the rest of your post.
“Free stuff” & high taxes are not really socialism. Social programs is not socialism.
For example: Denmark & Sweden (countries that Bernie Sanders always talks about) are NOT socialist countries.
They have Free Market Economies, not Planned Social Economies (aka socialist). Socialism has to do with the ideology against free markets. It’s not just about social programs.
I highly recommend the following 5 minute video
Is Denmark Socialist? | PragerU
Socialism has failed across the world – from the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe to China, Vietnam, North Korea and, most recently, Venezuela. So now the…
God bless
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Randolph
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Democratic Socialism seeks to raise taxes and seeks to convert many private industries into state owned /run industries. They claim that these revenues would be enough to fund their government run programs such as healthcare, higher education, energy, transportation, etc…The end goal is big government and small private ownership.
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phil19034
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Right. “Democratic Socialism” is socialism.
My point was that social programs (in of themselves) is not socialism.
BTW - “small private ownership” rarely exists in socialism because only the rich can afford it. It’s almost impossible for middle class people in socialist countries to open their own small business.
My point was that social programs (in of themselves) is not socialism.
BTW - “small private ownership” rarely exists in socialism because only the rich can afford it. It’s almost impossible for middle class people in socialist countries to open their own small business.
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Randolph
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I agree as in public assistance, k-12 education, social security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc… These are good social programs. They do not make the US a socialist country.
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Randolph
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In theory, you are correct. I lived for a sizable part of my life in a socialist country. In reality, you would be surprised how creative people can be if they have a chance to make a buck—even in a socialist society. The spirit of entrepreneurship is quite amazing.
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