Francis - the socialist pope?

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Randolph said:
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phil19034:
BTW - “small private ownership” rarely exists in socialism because only the rich can afford it. It’s almost impossible for middle class people in socialist countries to open their own small business.
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In theory, you are correct. I lived in a socialist country. You would be surprised how creative people could be if they have a chance to make a buck—even in a socialist society.
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that’s why I said “almost impossible.” But yes, very creative people can find a way.

But my point was that it’s far more difficult for people to get a business up & running in a real socialist county.
 
phil19034 said:
that’s why I said “almost impossible.” But yes, very creative people can find a way.

But my point was that it’s far more difficult for people to get a business up & running in a real socialist county.
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You are correct
 
Randolph said:
You may have the last words.
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I don’t need your permission for anything.
Much less to keep stating that there is no right to spread fake information about countries as if you had the least idea .Becuse you don’t .
And that is what is uncharitable.
Expectable given your age. But not expectable, to be the minimum honest required for you to say : “I don’t know about each and every country I mentioned.”
The world doesn’t end in US and your elections.
I am done with disinformation and poor treatment and respect for other countries.
 
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graciew said:
I don’t need to permission for anything.
Much less to keep stating that there is no right to spread fake information about countries as if you had the least idea .Becuse you don’t .
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Graciew. Allowing the other person to have the last word is a gesture of respect and fairness—not about permission. In other words, we just had a debate and I decided to move on. I just spoke my last words and now as a matter of respect and fairness, you have your chance to speak yours—should you choose to do so.

You may think anything about me as you wish. I do know about socialism and its destructive force on people and on nations. I have presented at great length facts and data to support my points.
 
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I do not disagree on Socialism/Communism as I have clearly stated. It is clear what the Church has stated about Socialism/ Communism as well as Capitalism . Three different worldviews…
And don’t think anything bad about your person since contrary to what may be thought, I have always regarded you with the affection I have for my sons.Which is a lot to say.
I just beg room for learning, which we all should make.
 
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graciew said:
I do not disagree on Socialism/Communism as I have clearly stated.
And don’t think anything bad about your person since contrary to what may be thought, I have always regarded you with the affection I have for my sons.Which is a lot to say.
I just beg room for learning, which we all should make.
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Thank you. You and I have had conversations and disagreements before. I do value your thoughts. If you mis-understood my personal views toward socialism as an attempt to insult the people who are living in those countries, I am sorry. The opposite would be true. Not only I would never ever insult them, but I deeply sympathize with them—because I was one of them.

God bless you and your family.
 
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Thank you . ❤️
Blessing for you and yours too.

Here is what I have noticed sometimes and I am open personally to discuss.
Some people,( I won’t get into amounts or percentages…) haven’t read the Compendium of Social Doctrine of the Church, or at least what is necessary to understand about what the Church says.Never late to read btw or reread.That on the one hand.
I totally understand that we all have our issues in different countries with different parties. And there a new ones cropping up in different places.That on the other hand.
Now , to say a Pope is a Socialist as per the worldview the Church has already spoken extensively about is to say the least ,incompatible.
So, the rub comes probably when without knowing Social Doctrine of the Church, the Pope or Popes or the Church is attributed a particular and sometimes even local political or political party stance She doesn’t have.
This also happens where I live. When the Pope speaks , comes the “ See… he is referring to so and so” or “ See… he is a xxxist “
And then one ends up dropping the towel and thinking that without getting into reading Social Doctrine this misunderstanding will happen.
Me included .
What do you think?
 
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graciew said:
What do you think?
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I must admit sometimes, in moments of frustration, particularly in politics and in religious matters, I express myself too freely and too carelessly. I would use words that others would interpret my thoughts in ways that I never intended.

I personally do not believe our Holy Father Pope Francis is a socialist. As another poster here just correctly pointed out, a socialist sees production above anything else. Pope Francis really cares the poor and the afflicted. He believes they are the forgotten ones in the society. He has charity in his heart. His unique experience in his homeland formed his outlook and political view. He is who he is. I think he is unfamiliar with and unprepared when it comes to dealing with the brutal press/media in the West. I personally disagree with much of his political and economic views—and some theological view. He deferred a lot of his decision process to his advisers—whom I don’t think have served him and the Church well. His preferred approach to critical issues is to be vague and ambiguous—with his own understanding that life is difficult and his deference/sensibility to the notion of walking in other people’s shoes. That approach brings forth different problems.

Charity is in the heart of the Church. I believe good Catholics agree wholeheartedly with that. It’s then a matter of how it’s carried out.

In the final analysis, Pope Francis is our Holy Father and deserves our love, prayers and respect.
 
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He certainly does.He is our Holy Father.
Thanks for your answer, Randolph.
 
Elias said:
believe Leo XIII said that separation of church and state is a heresy ( or at least very much frowned upon)
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One needs to keep in mind several factors.
  1. Pope leo was a prisoner of the Vatican, which was the results after the Papal States revolted a few decades earlier; that was the end of the Church acting as the temporal ruler of lands and people. the Church had been governing people back to the 700’s.
  2. the French Revolution was history, and the impact of that was still rattling through the corridors of both time and the Church; and America clearly had been influenced to some extent by the Revolution.
  3. The United States was and still is an anomaly in terms of government, a point which the Church was exceedingly slow to recognize as having positive value. And if one looks to society in general in America today, one might understand that the Church, while perhaps pleased that the US is not in as bad a shape as say, Europe, is in the midst of a society which certainly exhibits less than Christian principles in many matters.
 
If one wants a great interpretation of Vatican II and religious liberty that shows the consistency with tradition, I can’t recommend Fr Brian Harrison’s analysis enough.

Library : The Second Vatican Council and Religious Liberty, a review | Catholic Culture

The Second Vatican Council and Religious Liberty, a review Rev. Brian Harrison reviews Michael Davies' book, The Second Vatican Council and Religious Liberty, (The Neumann Press, 1992).
www.catholicculture.org
 
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But they got a fraction of what you explained right. Isn’t a fraction ok? Lol
 
Randolph said:
Where is the money to pay for all of them???
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The government can print the money. If inflation starts to increase, then the government can control the prices. If there are some shortages, the government can hand out and require ration coupons for purchases. At the same time, if the government is smart it will allow a secondary privately operated black market where goods in short supply can be had at high prices.
 
AlNg said:
The government can print the money. If inflation starts to increase, then the government can control the prices. If there are some shortages, the government can hand out and require ration coupons for purchases. At the same time, if the government is smart it will allow a secondary privately operated black market where goods in short supply can be had at high prices.
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NO… That’s not reality. If what you said could be done, then all governments would have done it already. In fact, many tried it with grave consequences… Printing too much money in itself de-values its own currency. The currency/money would be worthless. No amount of subsequent controls/policies could tame the inflationary consequences. The economic downturn would be unstoppable. Currency/money must in itself have value for it to be valued.
 
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If you go by any hope that men’s conscience would change, observation would suggest, " does it matter?" And welcome to the second gilded age Pope.
 
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I’m a little uncomfortable applying political labels to a pope. He isn’t socialist, he’s simply a Catholic.
 
To whoever said he’s a distributist, I’d agree with that. But like the previous poster said, I’m uncomfortable applying labels. Distributism seems closest to his views is how I’ll put it.
 
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