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ProVobis
Guest
At the English Masses I attend, virtually everyone receives.
At the Spanish or Polish Masses, OTOH, only about half of those in attendance receive. One can draw his own conclusions from this.
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At the Spanish or Polish Masses, OTOH, only about half of those in attendance receive. One can draw his own conclusions from this.
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Brother_Andre
Guest
The vast majority of people who present themselves for Holy Communion are in a state of mortal sin. Hardly anyone goes to confession any more. I like how this Pope is advocating in favour of a more balanced approach to the curse of sin, rather than the Jansenist/Calvinist notion that sexual sins are somehow gravely worse than, say, murder or theft. And strangely, it is most often older, celibate (of course) priests who have been the strongest advocates of stoning and sending into exile those who succumb to sexual temptation.
I think Pope Francis will move the Church to a place where balance is embraced, where charity is encouraged, and where the redeeming message of Christ CRUCIFIED is offered to all of humanity, in equal measure.
I think Pope Francis will move the Church to a place where balance is embraced, where charity is encouraged, and where the redeeming message of Christ CRUCIFIED is offered to all of humanity, in equal measure.
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Lapey
Guest
Same place it always is, in the heart when a person realizes the need for repentance. What part of my post was the need for repentance or need for truth in the faith left out? Or did you just infer that I thought Pope Francis now believes that sin and/or truth doesn’t exist? I am amazed at how many people think our Holy Father is saying or doing anything outside of Church teachings. Saddened and amazed.
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Lapey
Guest
If I were to “go to them and tell them to repent”, how many of these people would follow me back to the Church and God? Close to none.
Did Jesus ask for a drink first and offer her the “living water” or demand the adulterous woman at the well repent first?
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Well looking at the story you refer to, according to the law, the woman caught in adultery should’ve been stoned to death. But Jesus pass over the law and brought her to salvation.
So, according to the law, a divorced and remarried couple should not receive Jesus in Holy Communion. What do you suppose Jesus response to them would be ?
The goal here is to bring people to Christ, and that’s the focus Pope Francis is making.
Jim
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garysibio
Guest
I have no doubt that the pope is wiser than the average corner street preacher. Consider the words of St. Paul:A priest does not “tell them to repent” at least in the manner such a short four word directive indicates. The Pope said do not push them away. He is the boss. He is also wiser than your average street corner preacher. He is said that holiness is stronger. Teach holiness. Teach reconciliation. Teach Church doctrine. Jesus never first said to repent. Even the most poignant example of the woman caught in adultery, he first helped her in her trouble. Then he showed mercy. Third, he told her to go an sin no more. All this was done* after* establishing himself as a friend to sinners, a feeder of the hungry, a healer of the sick and a teacher of truth.
In the parable, Jesus did not say what should be said or how it should be said. I do not know what you mean “mince words”, but Jesus did not always speak directly. He was not a street corner preacher yelling at passer-bys to repent. I can see that the Holy Father has found a good topic that needs to be taught to the “elder son.”
From the Holy Father’s interview
nytimes.com/2013/09/20/world/europe/pope-bluntly-faults-churchs-focus-on-gays-and-abortion.html?_r=1&
Pope Francis is trying to offer us instruction grounded in prudence on the right way of evangelizing without ostracizing.
1 Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
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garysibio
Guest
Posts like yours infuriate me. Where did I ever suggest stoning the woman. I didn’t. You made that up. I said sinners need to be called to repentance, not mollycoddled. If you don’t know the difference, don’t bother responding.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Relax, I didn’t come close to saying you suggested stoning the woman. I merely pointed out that this was the law of the Jewish Religion for centuries before Christ. So, today we have the law that says a couple who have been divorced by remarried, must not receive Holy Communion.
In light of the story from Scripture you brought up, what would Jesus response be?
Jim
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Lapey
Guest
I think you misunderstand my comments, I am in complete agreement with Pope Francis. He says meet them where they are and teach truth. I’m all over both of these actions!
Jesus would tell this couple just what he told the woman at the well, truth with and in Love!
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Fevronia
Guest
We all know that the Cohabiting couples will then feel offended when the truth is told to them.
Honestly, the problem with this world today is PRIDE (Perhaps it always has been). One gets offended so easily because they are full of pride. The priest cannot show or point out that something is wrong because of the parishioners don’t want to hear their wrongs.
So what the Pope says already happens. Couples come in to mass, the priest says their arrangement is wrong and then the couple is all mad about it. Or the priest speaks about it in general during the homily and the couple never wants to see the priest again.
Therefore what we get are priests who don’t say anything at all and just treat cohabitation as natural in the name of “bringing them to Christ”. Meanwhile, the social fabric deteriorates more and more to allow the sins to thrive.
The type of Church Pope Francis speaks about, at least to my mind, looks more like a Church that does not speak at all but silently goes through the motions.
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pnewton
Guest
I do not think I can agree with this. I know the Church makes no such statement.
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Fevronia
Guest
The Church should be asking people to go to confession and not receive communion while in a state of sin. It’s not mentioned in general today in most parishes so I presume the person was just stating a general observation.
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Mary_Fleurdelis
Guest
lol Nope they’re welcomed with open arms. THEY NEVER TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS. Those of us who ask the Tabernacle to be moved behind the altar and try to promote pro-life events, however, we’re hushed up.
I’ve had to switch parishes multiple times. And I’m only in my early twenties. My whole family has been ready to leave the Church because they’d never been taught it’s the one true Church…thank God He made me stubborn.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
But the conclusions might be incorrect.
In my parish, most of the Anglos receive Communion. I have no clue as to how many of them are worthy to receive. But neither do I know any who are living in adultery who do, presently, though I have known for sure of some who are divorced and remarried who refrained from communion until they received an annulment.
I was told by a Hispanic pastor we had at one time that a lot of the Hispanics’ lives are a mess. Cohabited with one, perhaps, then maybe married her. Maybe valid, maybe not. Left the marriage, no divorce. Married somebody else, probably invalidly. Left the marriage, but got divorced this time. Some of that is due to sheer ignorance. Some due to “shotgun weddings”. Some is due to being separated for long periods. Some is due to just finding a pretty girlfriend half one’s age and marrying her, then seeing her go off with a younger man who gives her gold jewelry and drives a fancy car.
But he added that a lot of them have a perfectionist idea about going to Communion. It’s something you maybe do once/year on a feast day, and then only if you have been to confession within the last few hours and had no opportunity to commit any sin whatever.
Likely that messiness is one of the big reasons why the Evangelicals are having a field day recruiting Hispanics. Accept Jesus as your savior and you’re good to go. Forget about this one you think maybe you married in Mexico when you were 18, and that one you’re pretty sure you married in California at age 28 when the one in Mexico didn’t want to come with you or you didn’t want her to come. And forget about the Anglo woman you married so you could stay here legally, but then divorced when you got amnestied. You and your present woman are just fine in our congregation as long as you accept Jesus and donate what we think you should.
As to the Poles, one might expect an entirely different thing if they’re recent arrivals. Perhaps a bit less careless in their spiritual lives than natives?
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pnewton
Guest
Exactly. How does one observe the state of another’s soul? There is no real clear teaching on percentage of mortal sin, how wide spread it is, or how easy it is to commit. If an action falls short in any of the three requirements of mortal sin, it is not mortal sin. There is some wisdom in the warning of Jesus against trying to judge the state of the soul of other people.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
There’s a lot of difference among priests. I recall one, and not some wild-eyed progressive either, who, right before one Mass, announced that he was dedicating the Mass to the unmarried women of the parish who had children. He praised them, not for that, but for loving their children enough to give birth to them. He had a few of them sitting in the front row with their children. Remarkable.lol Nope they’re welcomed with open arms. THEY NEVER TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS. Those of us who ask the Tabernacle to be moved behind the altar and try to promote pro-life events, however, we’re hushed up.
I’ve had to switch parishes multiple times. And I’m only in my early twenties. My whole family has been ready to leave the Church because they’d never been taught it’s the one true Church…thank God He made me stubborn.
But I have also seen parish priests who never say anything about abortion, ever, nor chastity either.
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Fevronia
Guest
Well the traditional assumption is that we do not know enough to decide in either direction as to whether a soul is ignorant enough or meets these other conditions. So one must evangelize, and in the case of those already Catholics, remind them of the need to go to confession.
You could say that with the writings of saints (and even Popes), there is a general idea in the Church that people DO need to confess. As in that we do fall in to sin regularly. So if confession is not common, then such a person could proceed to conclude after observing that the Church is distributing communion to those most likely in mortal sin. The priest in that case will be culpable for what he is doing by not instructing the faithful of the need to go to confession.
Since I do not personally see something wrong with that view of seeing confession as something we do definitely need, I cannot say I can completely disagree with the poster. But his post should have been worded more precisely perhaps.
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pnewton
Guest
Yes, but not necessarily mortal sin. That is the vital qualifier that was added. Isn’t the precept of the Church that we confess at least once a year?
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Fevronia
Guest
Yes, but that is also when the precept for receiving communion is as less as that. Also, “at least” is a minimum requirement.
From the perspective of writings of saints, I think its very easy to get a different idea on the required frequency of confession. Especially the likes of St. John Vianney.
And yes, the implicit assumption is actually of mortal sin rather than just sin (assuming you mean of venial nature). Even if the person had originally been in venial sin, most saints tend to point out how this will later turn in to mortal sin as the person finds it more difficult to break free of the sin even once the three conditions are satisfied. To my mind, that seems very reasonable.
Also, the idea of many just being guilty of venial sins seems to contradict the idea of a Church working out its salvation in fear and trembling. But these are my personal opinions after reading the saints. The more I read, the more I find that we must be constantly weary of sin because the devil is at work. Our relief/hope is not in the idea that our sin is venial but in the fact that we have the sacrament of confession offered to us to get back on track in our relationship with the Lord. That is how I look at it at least.
This is of course a very “-t-raditional” and “ancient” mindset and I am aware that for many it may seem outdated
. But I find that to be the most reasonable position to my mind so I cannot in good conscience think otherwise as well.
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pnewton
Guest
Well, I will see how the Pope continues to lead. He seems to operate more from the belief in the mercy of God and not assuming mortal sin if possible. I will admit that this is one of my most liberal theological opinions, but still well within what is accepted by the Catholic Church that has never defined or even suggested the frequency of mortal sin.
Did you know that no one, not even Judas has ever been said to be in Hell? Being cautious in judgement is a very old tradition in the Church.
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