Francis urges priests not to push cohabiting couples away

[Fevronia]

Well, I will see how the Pope continues to lead. He seems to operate more from the belief in the mercy of God and not assuming mortal sin if possible. I will admit that this is one of my most liberal theological opinions, but still well within what is accepted by the Catholic Church that has never defined or even suggested the frequency of mortal sin.

Did you know that no one, not even Judas has ever been said to be in Hell? Being cautious in judgement is a very old tradition in the Church.

Actually, I might be wrong, but I have been taught that the Church does consider Judas to be in hell. The reason why the Church doesn’t have an official declaration is that there has been no reason or profit for her to canonize that someone is in hell in the same way its profitable to canonize someone as being in heaven. I have seen quotes from saints and Popes in the past who speak of Judas as being in hell. Unfortunately I do not have the quotes with me now but I am sure those were definitely there and I did not misread them.

On the issue of God’s mercy, the reason why I am hesitant to accept the modern view is because it tends to come from a very human understanding. What I mean to say is that the whole problem is approached from “If I was God, would I condemn someone to hell?” line of thinking. For me it feels like something that I cannot do. Because God is infinite, I feel that I cannot possibly comprehend why he can/cannot send someone, including myself, to hell if he did we did not do his will. Only thing I feel that we have to go by is Divine revelation which does not say anything to the order of he won’t send anyone to hell. So there is, I feel, no room for theological hope that no one will go there. -T-raditionally speaking, there is too much material in my opinion that speaks to the contrary from the writings of both saints and Popes that many will not be saved.

That is the reason why I am very hesitant toward the modern view/approach.

 

[sodak]

At the English Masses I attend, virtually everyone receives.
At the Spanish or Polish Masses, OTOH, only about half of those in attendance receive. One can draw his own conclusions from this.

And they would probably be wrong. Perhaps the Spanish and Polish are much better at examining their consciences before Communion. Perhaps they are better at bringing friends and neighbors to Mass.

Only God is to judge. Nobody else.

 

[pnewton]

Actually, I might be wrong, but I have been taught that the Church does consider Judas to be in hell.

Some people in the Church may believe it or taught it. Th Catholic Church has not.

That is the reason why I am very hesitant toward the modern view/approach.

We’ll see. I do not think this pope is a modernist. Don’t forget that the depth of God’s mercy is not modern, but goes back to the Old Testament prophets (Hosea, Micah, ect.). The modern lesson of God’s mercy came through St. Faustina.

 

[Fevronia]

Some people in the Church may believe it or taught it. Th Catholic Church has not.

Well, not to get too hung up on this but the Church does celebrate every other Apostle as a saint. Judas on the other hand is not under consideration for sainthood or has never been celebrated as such?

We’ll see. I do not think this pope is a modernist. Don’t forget that the depth of God’s mercy is not modern, but goes back to the Old Testament prophets (Hosea, Micah, ect.). The modern lesson of God’s mercy came through St. Faustina.

I did not in anyway mean to say Pope Francis is a modernist (in the sense of the heresy). I meant to say “modern” as in the sense that it did not exist there before.

With respect to St. Faustina, I am not aware of any writings of her that speak to hell being empty or lack of souls that will be lost. Were there any? Also, wouldn’t the writings of St. Faustina with respect to her personal revelation be considered private revelation not binding on the Church?

 

[Lapey]

We all know that the Cohabiting couples will then feel offended when the truth is told to them.

Honestly, the problem with this world today is PRIDE (Perhaps it always has been). One gets offended so easily because they are full of pride. The priest cannot show or point out that something is wrong because of the parishioners don’t want to hear their wrongs.

So what the Pope says already happens. Couples come in to mass, the priest says their arrangement is wrong and then the couple is all mad about it. Or the priest speaks about it in general during the homily and the couple never wants to see the priest again.

Therefore what we get are priests who don’t say anything at all and just treat cohabitation as natural in the name of “bringing them to Christ”. Meanwhile, the social fabric deteriorates more and more to allow the sins to thrive.

The type of Church Pope Francis speaks about, at least to my mind, looks more like a Church that does not speak at all but silently goes through the motions.

Your first statement is completely false. How many CH couples have you met privately with? I have met with many. It works, I use every opportunity I get, baptismal seminars are the perfect place to do this since most children baptized these days are not being raised by married parents, much less Catholic married parents. Me and my pastor have performed many convalidations and worked on many annulment applications stemming from personal contact and conversations with couple in irregular relationships.

This is all Pope Francis is saying.

 

[Fevronia]

Your first statement is completely false. How many CH couples have you met privately with? I have met with many. It works, I use every opportunity I get, baptismal seminars are the perfect place to do this since most children baptized these days are not being raised by married parents, much less Catholic married parents. Me and my pastor have performed many convalidations and worked on many annulment applications stemming from personal contact and conversations with couple in irregular relationships.

This is all Pope Francis is saying.

Well, I have met quiet a few in my time on campus. I can assure you, they did not like the idea that cohabitation was wrong to begin with. They all saw it as something the Church needed to “grow out of”.

But these sort of things are not important because it is anecdotal evidence, both yours and mine.

Still, I find something problematic with what you say. If your best moment is during the baptismal seminar, are you aware that most cohabiting couples will not make it that far? So your sampling space is skewed because you only meet those who are already feeling some push to baptize their kids. That is a skewed sample.

If we were to look at the number of Catholic couples that cohabit, I feel confident that the number is much higher than the number that then proceeds to baptize their children. Most of them may not even be cohabiting with a Catholic partner to even think of such a thing. A much greater chunk of them may not even be thinking of raising children.

 

[Lapey]

Well, I have met quiet a few in my time on campus. I can assure you, they did not like the idea that cohabitation was wrong to begin with. They all saw it as something the Church needed to “grow out of”.

But these sort of things are not important because it is anecdotal evidence, both yours and mine.

Still, I find something problematic with what you say. If your best moment is during the baptismal seminar, are you aware that most cohabiting couples will not make it that far? So your sampling space is skewed because you only meet those who are already feeling some push to baptize their kids. That is a skewed sample.

If we were to look at the number of Catholic couples that cohabit, I feel confident that the number is much higher than the number that then proceeds to baptize their children. Most of them may not even be cohabiting with a Catholic partner to even think of such a thing. A much greater chunk of them may not even be thinking of raising children.

That was the only example I gave. My job in the Church is ministry, this is what I do. In the parish, at my secular job, in my kids schools, in the grocery store. etc. The anecdotal evidence can be backed up with sacramental records.

One on one ministry as a member of the clergy works. I don’t really worry about negative attitudes, I worry about canon 1752. Do you know what that is?

 

[Fevronia]

That was the only example I gave. My job in the Church is ministry, this is what I do. In the parish, at my secular job, in my kids schools, in the grocery store. etc. The anecdotal evidence can be backed up with sacramental records.

One on one ministry as a member of the clergy works. I don’t really worry about negative attitudes, I worry about canon 1752. Do you know what that is?

Yes, but as I said to a poster before you, I believe that this salvation is accomplished by stopping cohabitation rather than solving it after. I believe in prevention rather than damage control.

In my opinion, there is too much emphasis on the Church and part of Social workers on Damage control with zero effort toward prevention.

As for Anecdotal evidence, I just explained to you how Sacramental Records cannot be used to back up the evidence. Most cohabitation will not ever reach the point of a child coming in for baptism.

 

[catholicguy25]

At the English Masses I attend, virtually everyone receives.
At the Spanish or Polish Masses, OTOH, only about half of those in attendance receive. One can draw his own conclusions from this.

Very interesting observation. Provobis. I also attend masses in English and Spanish and I have noticed the same thing… Though those who attend mass in english are mostly descendants of Hispanics… on the other hand the ones who attend mass in spanish were born in latin america.

 

[Lapey]

Yes, but as I said to a poster before you, I believe that this salvation is accomplished by stopping cohabitation rather than solving it after. I believe in prevention rather than damage control.

In my opinion, there is too much emphasis on the Church and part of Social workers on Damage control with zero effort toward prevention.

As for Anecdotal evidence, I just explained to you how Sacramental Records cannot be used to back up the evidence. Most cohabitation will not ever reach the point of a child coming in for baptism.

You don’t read very well. Where did I say anything about not preventing this. I work with teen on a weekly basis teaching truths of marriage.

What do you do to help, rather than complain and challenge people actively involved in ministry for the salvation of souls?

Is there anything I can say that you would be satisfied with? I don’t know why I bother at times.

 

[Fevronia]

You don’t read very well. Where did I say anything about not preventing this. I work with teen on a weekly basis teaching truths of marriage.

What do you do to help, rather than complain and challenge people actively involved in ministry for the salvation of souls?

Is there anything I can say that you would be satisfied with? I don’t know why I bother at times.

I cannot read well by your conclusion so I am not sure if this reply will cover everything you said.

I only pointed out the truth that most cohabiting couples want the Church to accept what they do as right. That is a simple fact. They think it is how relations should take place. Obviously, they are not cohabiting because they didn’t know marriage existed.

So I don’t really see any merit in the idea of saying cohabiting couples are not offended when the truth is told to them. Your only evidence are the ones you have met as they come get their child baptized which is already a very late stage. Most cohabitation’s don’t make it that far.

That is all I wish to say of this matter.

 

[pnewton]

With respect to St. Faustina, I am not aware of any writings of her that speak to hell being empty or lack of souls that will be lost. Were there any?

I never said Hell is empty. I never said mortal sin does not exist. Oh, and what Pope Francis is saying is *not *modern. He is reflecting the teaching of Jesus who ate with sinners and tax collectors, much to the chagrain of the Pharisees of his day. He is not saying that we accept cohabitation. He is saying that we accept cohabiting couples. We need to accept gossips. We need to accept those that cheat on their income taxes. We need to accept those that are homosexual. We need to accept those who worship the dollare. In all of these cases we need to take care not to push these people away. This does not mean that the Church is just to “go through the motions”. Rather, Pope Francis believes that the call to sanctity is strong than scandal. Love of God is stronger than threats of Hell.

 

[Tomdstone]

The vast majority of people who present themselves for Holy Communion are in a state of mortal sin. Hardly anyone goes to confession any more.

Is this the way the Roman Catholic Church wants it to be now? Why has it changed from what it was in the preVatican II era, when smaller numbers of people were presenting themselves for Holy Communion?

 

[Tomdstone]

At the English Masses I attend, virtually everyone receives.
At the Spanish or Polish Masses, OTOH, only about half of those in attendance receive. One can draw his own conclusions from this.

Does that mean that Roman Catholics who attend the English Masses are more saintly and devout than those who attend the Spanish Masses?

 

[manualman]

I cannot read well by your conclusion so I am not sure if this reply will cover everything you said.

I only pointed out the truth that most cohabiting couples want the Church to accept what they do as right. That is a simple fact. They think it is how relations should take place. Obviously, they are not cohabiting because they didn’t know marriage existed.

So I don’t really see any merit in the idea of saying cohabiting couples are not offended when the truth is told to them. Your only evidence are the ones you have met as they come get their child baptized which is already a very late stage. Most cohabitation’s don’t make it that far.

Actually I’m with the Deacon on this one. You’d be surprised how respectful people are of moral viewpoints directly opposed to theirs when you treat them as people BEFORE bringing up the issue of their sins. It’s more often only we fail to make a personal connection before raising moral issues that they tune us out totally and label us as “self righteous zealots.”

At my kid’s catholic school, the pastor requires ALL parents of 2nd graders to attend two adult-only talks at which he explains parental responsibility for teaching about sin, guilt, repentance and salvation and for LIVING it out in family life. In that talk he first makes it abundantly clear how much he loves the kids and wants them to truly enter into Grace via Reconciliation and Communion, but needs the parents to help! It’s precisely because of the clarity of his love and commitment that he can get away with gently rebuking people for brazenly using contraception/sterilization, divorcing and remarrying and acting out other scandal that undermines the faith of their kids in what is supposed to be their years of innocence. People always clap at the end (and not the awkward polite kind either). Can you imagine?

 

[Havard]

Just another example of great progressive ideals this Pope, and the Church, espouses!

How would you see partisan cheer leading as in-line with what the Holy Father wants? The truth is unifying, not divisive… please do not bring petty political lines into it.

 

[pnewton]

How would you see partisan cheer leading as in-line with what the Holy Father wants? The truth is unifying, not divisive… please do not bring petty political lines into it.

That is good advice for all, but the poster you quoted did not mention politics, so, you are right. Do not bring politics into it.

Unity needs to center around the Holy Father. He is the leader.

 

[Darryl1958]

vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/francesco-francis-francisco-27890/

What I would really like to discuss is what does the Pope mean when he says this:

The way that the Church pushes divorced/ cohabiting people away now is by not allowing them to receive communion.

 

[Fevronia]

Actually I’m with the Deacon on this one. You’d be surprised how respectful people are of moral viewpoints directly opposed to theirs when you treat them as people BEFORE bringing up the issue of their sins. It’s more often only we fail to make a personal connection before raising moral issues that they tune us out totally and label us as “self righteous zealots.”

At my kid’s catholic school, the pastor requires ALL parents of 2nd graders to attend two adult-only talks at which he explains parental responsibility for teaching about sin, guilt, repentance and salvation and for LIVING it out in family life. In that talk he first makes it abundantly clear how much he loves the kids and wants them to truly enter into Grace via Reconciliation and Communion, but needs the parents to help! It’s precisely because of the clarity of his love and commitment that he can get away with gently rebuking people for brazenly using contraception/sterilization, divorcing and remarrying and acting out other scandal that undermines the faith of their kids in what is supposed to be their years of innocence. People always clap at the end (and not the awkward polite kind either). Can you imagine?

I am not sure if many of you actually deal with Students from Colleges and Universities (including Catholics ones) but they are not receptive of Church teaching on this issue. Yes, they will politely listen to you and smile. But the moment you are done, they tell their friends how you are from the backward Church that needs to grow up.

The problem for the deacon is that he only meets those who are well past that age. So, to put it bluntly, he is oblivious to the fact that many do not come to the Church or like what the Church has to teach.

 

[opus101]

opus

So you’re saying that all couples who divorced and then remarried without an annulment, are committing fornication ?I

Jim

No. I don’t even know how you got that impression. Was I that unclear?
I wasn’t saying that at all. I was saying that, without an annulment, there is no way to know the legitimacy of a relationship, and if this is followed through logically, the same would have to apply to all other situations: fornication, adultery, homosexual relations and more. And since the sacrament of marriage might not be present, then why not ignore all other sacramental requirements for receiving Holy Communion, such as confession of mortal sins, having already received instruction and First Holy Communion, and heck…even baptism.

You can’t throw one thing out without throwing many others out with it. They are all connected.

I don’t think that is what the Holy Father is talking about here. I think he is talking about pastoral approach.