Free will, amputees, and Fatima

[ready]

Which church should I believe? Should I listen to the Catholics or the Mormons or the Muslims or the Hindus or the Quakers or the Buddhists or the …? Pretty much every religion has it’s fulfilled prophecies and miracles. How do we decide which is the true story?

It would be one thing if they were all saying the same thing, but they don,t, and they pretty much all teach that every other religion is false. That can’t all be true, but they can all be false.

Believe in the one and only church established by Christ: the holy Catholic Church. (All other trinitarian Churches broke away from the holy Catholic Church - and a trinitarian God is what Jesus is.) The Catholic Church is the only church still completely true to Jesus who founded His Church on Peter and the apostles. Jesus handed over to them His authority to forgive mortal sins, not to anyone who starts his own new religion. What other church has clergy with the authority of Christ to forgive mortal sins and to feed the people with His very precious flesh and blood? None. The other Churches don’t have the authority given from Christ to do these things. They are either schismatics , heretics or rebellious to the Catholic Church in one way or another with no authority or God-given power to do much else than preach in His name and fellowship, but they fail Him when they deviate from the truth handed down from the Catholic apostles and bishops faithful to the Pope. What other Church has apostolic succession to carry down the traditions and beliefs of the first apostles (bishops) without changing the ancient and contemporary dogmas (infallible truths). None. All other trinitarian Churches have their own ideas, not conforming to the first Church of Christ and the apostles. I just ask that you remain open, Leela. Just be open and you’ll be alright. I don’t mean to be condescending to you in the least when I say: I will pray for you. But I promise I will. Pray for me too. We all could use prayers.

 

[Leela]

A lot of folks would argue that the fact the gospels are inconsistent shows that the stories are true. IF they were identical, some may think that they were copies of each other.
[/quotes]

Scholars actually think that the three synoptic gospels copied material from a source they call Q.
wcknight;5117639:

Compared to the evidence at some murder trials, I think you have more than enough evidence to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt. Folks have been convicted on a whole lot less proof. The quality of the witnesses have certainly been much more credible. I would take the word of a few dozen saints long before I would of any murder trial witness, no matter who distinguished or reputable.

When you compare to something like a murder trial, you have to consider that we have a lot of experience that makes the circumstances of a given murder seem plausible, while we do not have the same sort of experience of someone walking on water or raising the dead, or reattaching ears. Such claims of events that are so different from our everyday experience which tells us that people can’t do these things make it justifiable to require more evidence than two thousand year-old accounts witnessed and passed down orally (by people who were pre-scientific and didn’t have good explanations for pretty much anything) and later written down and copied from copies and translated and copied again, especially when these accounts don’t agree and since earlier manuscripts down agree with later manuscripts while other manuscripts attesting to different events also exist.

 

[Leela]

Each of the gospels was written for a specific audience. That is the basic reason for variations in the gospels. Does anybody see the same event exactly the same as somebody else? Do we not place emphasis in different spots in the stories we tell based on who we are telling the story to? These stories were passed by word of mouth before being put on paper.
Why would men hiding from the Romans continue to tell a story they do not believe themselves?

My concern is not about whether such men really believed the story they heard or though they witnessed. The question is whether we have good reason to believe such men.

And if we think the evidence warrants believing these men, by the same standards of evidence wouldn’t we have to also believe the claims made by every other religion as well as every claim to ESP, astrology, telekinesis, and bigfoot sightings? Don’t the people that talk about these things also really believe them? Again, the question is whether or not we should believe these people.

 

[ready]

Leela,

I’d believe what I heard from the rigorous, wise and faithful Church of Jesus Christ ( the holy Catholic Church) before I believed any expert witness in a murder trial. Just as science has its way of assuring true results, the holy Catholic Church is HIGHLY, HIGHLY rigorous and thorough in what she sets forth as true. We are assured of the veracity of her dogma’s. We don’t go throwing around nonsense here in the Church when it comes to sound doctrine. We aren’t even required to believe personal testimonies of the saints, as this is not coming from the authority of the Magisterium inspired by God, but from personal witness/testimony. We go by the long-term authority of the Pope and Bishops who have faithfully, carefully and prudently preserved the deposit of faith for all the faithful. You’re only fooling yourself when you are not open to and accepting her teachings. They are established on a Rock and are based on 2,000 years of an institution inspired by the Holy Spirit Himself.

 

[ready]

My concern is not about whether such men really believed the story they heard or though they witnessed. The question is whether we have good reason to believe such men.

And if we think the evidence warrants believing these men, by the same standards of evidence wouldn’t we have to also believe the claims made by every other religion as well as every claim to ESP, astrology, telekinesis, and bigfoot sightings? Don’t the people that talk about these things also really believe them? Again, the question is whether or not we should believe these people.

Parapsychology can attest to the veracity of the existence of supernatural phenomena like telekekinesis, ESP, ghosts, etc. I have no problem accepting their existance in the least. Astrology is not a science and is of the devil as we are told by the Church, so I would’t want you to look to the stars for your anwers. We are instructed as Catholics that the bad spirits at seances, etc. will eventually tell you something false and you won’t know it from the truth - bringing real harm to you. These spirits are of the devil and are liars and deceivers. They just try and hook you to be involved with the devil’s power and lose your soul. If they were benevolent, they wouldn’t be directing you to participate in the occult. They’d lead you to Jesus. Big foot sightings and UFO sightings are phenomena that involve unusual objects without any sufficient evidence that they are extraterrestrial. Stories (and footprints) concocted to confuse and mislead people. Hoaxes, conspiracies, I believe.

 

[Shike]

My concern is not about whether such men really believed the story they heard or though they witnessed. The question is whether we have good reason to believe such men.

Ya good point. Almost all of the apostles were martyred for their beliefs. They didn’t recant, plenty of opportunity to do so.

Would you be willing to die for something you knew to be false?
And if you say that they actually believed, but were mistaken… do you think the effects (including 2000 years of history, countless saints and charities and testimonies and yes even miracles and all the good that has been done) could come from such a cause?

And note, before you point to some particular bad event in Church history, consider the good that has been done as well, weigh it carefully. It might be time for a dive into history… ?

 

[DebChris]

Ya good point. Almost all of the apostles were martyred for their beliefs. They didn’t recant, plenty of opportunity to do so.

Would you be willing to die for something you knew to be false?
And if you say that they actually believed, but were mistaken… do you think the effects (including 2000 years of history, countless saints and charities and testimonies and yes even miracles and all the good that has been done) could come from such a cause?

And note, before you point to some particular bad event in Church history, consider the good that has been done as well, weigh it carefully. It might be time for a dive into history… ?

What we have failed to mention in this discussion is that if Christ is real, if God is alive, then it is possible to have a relationship with Him. We could point to ancient religions that were based on fear, in which the adherents of a religion simply kowtowed before an idol that had absolutely no power.
That is one of the basic differences between Christianity and other religions. We are called into love so that we might love. We can look at the Apostles who cowered in an upper room after Jesus was crucified. What is it that drove these uneducated men to step unto a balcony and begin preaching. Were they not aware of the consequences of their actions? Isn’t that why they hid in the first place?. The change that happened is that God was no longer a divine being in a far away heaven. God had given His spirit to each of the Apostles who now displayed the necessary courage to proclaim the Word that they have received. No, they did not recant.
Faith requires acceptance of mystery, of knowing that there are some things that simply cannot be explained with scientific logic.
Even at the human level, do we not say “I don’t know what she sees in him,” since our love experience is uniquely our own. While I may personally experience God, may enjoy a personal relationship, can I actually expect you to have that same experience? Isn’t that what we mean by a “leap of faith,” of stepping out even if we don’t understand and accepting the possibility that we might actually enjoy a relationship with the divine?

 

[Leela]

Leela,

I’d believe what I heard from the rigorous, wise and faithful Church of Jesus Christ ( the holy Catholic Church) before I believed any expert witness in a murder trial. Just as science has its way of assuring true results, the holy Catholic Church is HIGHLY, HIGHLY rigorous and thorough in what she sets forth as true. We are assured of the veracity of her dogma’s. We don’t go throwing around nonsense here in the Church when it comes to sound doctrine. We aren’t even required to believe personal testimonies of the saints, as this is not coming from the authority of the Magisterium inspired by God, but from personal witness/testimony. We go by the long-term authority of the Pope and Bishops who have faithfully, carefully and prudently preserved the deposit of faith for all the faithful. You’re only fooling yourself when you are not open to and accepting her teachings. They are established on a Rock and are based on 2,000 years of an institution inspired by the Holy Spirit Himself.

Don’t you think that pretty much everybody of different religions say the same thing about their faith? Why should I believe you and not them?

 

[Leela]

Parapsychology can attest to the veracity of the existence of supernatural phenomena like telekekinesis, ESP, ghosts, etc.

There is a long-standing million dolloar prize offered by the Randi Foundation for anyone who can demonstrate a supernatural power or event.

randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

"At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the “applicant” becomes a “claimant.”

To date, no one has passed the preliminary tests."

 

[Leela]

Ya good point. Almost all of the apostles were martyred for their beliefs. They didn’t recant, plenty of opportunity to do so.

Would you be willing to die for something you knew to be false?

Of course, not. That’s not the issue. I don’t doubt that the Christian martyrs actually believed what they claimed. But I also don’t doubt that the 9/11 hijackers believed that they were dieing for the truth, either.

And if you say that they actually believed, but were mistaken… do you think the effects (including 2000 years of history, countless saints and charities and testimonies and yes even miracles and all the good that has been done) could come from such a cause?

If people do good things because they believe something false, the things they do are still good and what they believe is still false.

Consider all the good works of other religions that you hold to be false.

 

[Spock]

Ya good point. Almost all of the apostles were martyred for their beliefs. They didn’t recant, plenty of opportunity to do so.

Obviously they believed that their martyrdom will give them a quick way into heaven, so they were not afraid of dying, they welcomed it. Martyrdom is coveted by many strong believers. Look at those suicide bombers who beleive they do Allah’s work, and their act will get them into Paradise immediately (don’t go to Start, do not collect 200 bucks ).

 

[ready]

Don’t you think that pretty much everybody of different religions say the same thing about their faith? Why should I believe you and not them?

Because our Church was founded on a Rock. Jesus even told Peter: “You are Rock (or rock) and on this rock (or Rock) I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH.” The protestants broke away from the Rock or rock, Peter, Christ’s representative on earth. The other religions don’t accept Peter, the Rock or rock, and thus aren’t in full communion with the Church of Jesus Christ (the holy Catholic Church). The other religions contain some truth in their doctrines, but only the holy Catholic Church contains the full body of truth - we still keep faithful to Christ’s appointment of Peter as his representative and our dogmas never change. All the other religions contradict Catholicism one way or another and Catholicism is the only Faith that has existed for 2,000 and was founded on the Word (Jesus), not on mere myth or pantheism.

 

[ready]

Leela,

I know ghosts exist and I don’t care what you or any rationalistic mind thinks on the matter. Even the Catholic Church recognises this phenomenon as existent.

 

[tonyrey]

My concern is not about whether such men really believed the story they heard or though they witnessed. The question is whether we have good reason to believe such men.

And if we think the evidence warrants believing these men, by the same standards of evidence wouldn’t we have to also believe the claims made by every other religion as well as every claim to ESP, astrology, telekinesis, and bigfoot sightings? Don’t the people that talk about these things also really believe them? Again, the question is whether or not we should believe these people.

There is obviously no conclusive evidence for the claims in the Gospels taken in isolation from their historical context. The Jews expected a Messiah because of prophecies made hundreds of years before his birth. He fulfilled those prophecies even to the precise details of his suffering, death and resurrection. His moral teaching is the finest ever given to mankind, he reflected it in his life and let himself be tortured and crucified rather than be caught up in the spiral of evil and violence which still afflicts the world. How then could he be an impostor or a lunatic?

Is it likely that in the face of severe persecution a tiny Christian sect would extend over the entire planet, survive for two thousand years and be accepted today by one third of the world’s population if it is based on fraud or superstition?

 

[Leela]

Because our Church was founded on a Rock. Jesus even told Peter: “You are Rock (or rock) and on this rock (or Rock) I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH.” The protestants broke away from the Rock or rock, Peter, Christ’s representative on earth. The other religions don’t accept Peter, the Rock or rock, and thus aren’t in full communion with the Church of Jesus Christ (the holy Catholic Church). The other religions contain some truth in their doctrines, but only the holy Catholic Church contains the full body of truth - we still keep faithful to Christ’s appointment of Peter as his representative and our dogmas never change. All the other religions contradict Catholicism one way or another and Catholicism is the only Faith that has existed for 2,000 and was founded on the Word (Jesus), not on mere myth or pantheism.

Your argument mises the point. It is based on what Christianity says about itself. Other religions say the same sorts of things about themselves. I understand that Catholicism teaches that Catholicism is the one true faith, but so does Mormonism, so does Islam. The Koran says that Jesus was not crucified or divine and believers in Jesus will be damned. Muslims believe thjat Muhammed ascended to heaven on a winged horse. Why don’t you believe that? Why believe the Bible and not the Koran? Why not believe the Book of Mormon?

 

[Leela]

Leela,

I know ghosts exist and I don’t care what you or any rationalistic mind thinks on the matter. Even the Catholic Church recognises this phenomenon as existent.

As I posted before, there is a million bucks in it for you if you can demonstrate that ghosts exist.

randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

 

[ready]

As I posted before, there is a million bucks in it for you if you can demonstrate that ghosts exist.

randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

The natural sciences and the investigation techniques of observation, trial and error and statistics are suited for the natural world and its phenomena. When it comes to the supernatural and its phenomena we are in a different domain where proof comes through the acceptence of a whole body of knowledge not accepted by the rationalistic naturalists who don’t even aknowledge the spiritual worlds (angels, demons, purgatory, etc.).
It would be stupid of me to waste my time debating with those in the sciences who are so ignorant to think that they can treat the supernatural the same way they would the natural.

 

[Leela]

There is obviously no conclusive evidence for the claims in the Gospels taken in isolation from their historical context. The Jews expected a Messiah because of prophecies made hundreds of years before his birth. He fulfilled those prophecies even to the precise details of his suffering, death and resurrection.

Precise details? Like what? Jesus rose on the 3rd day, according to the scriptures? What scriptures? Where does anythying in the Old Testament predict this event that is supposedly a fulfilled prophecy? There is no such prophecy.

Matthew said that the purchase of the potter’s field with the thirty pieces of silver that Judas cast back to the chief priests and elders fulfilled a prophecy made by Jeremiah (27:9-10). But Jeremiah never wrote anything remotely similar to this.

Though these is no such prophecy, even if there were, it may only mean that the gospel writers may have made deliberate attempts (as Biblical scholars are convinced Matthew did) to make the account consistent with as many prophecies as possible.

His moral teaching is the finest ever given to mankind, he reflected it in his life and let himself be tortured and crucified rather than be caught up in the spiral of evil and violence which still afflicts the world. How then could he be an impostor or a lunatic?

Imposter or a lunatic? These aren’t the only possibilities. The question isn’t about believing what Jesus said. It is about whether we have any way of knowing what Jesus may have really said if he even ever existed. We know how such legends develop based on stories passed from one person to the next and in the end having little to do with what actually happened. We also know for a fact that scribes made stuff up and made stuff up since we have so many variant manuscripts. It is just not so simple as believing Jesus or not. It is about believing the 2000 year old accounts that were passed down orally and only written down decades later and then copied and copied from copies. Such evidence doesn’t convince you of the truth of other religions, why does it convince you of Christianity?

Is it likely that in the face of severe persecution a tiny Christian sect would extend over the entire planet, survive for two thousand years and be accepted today by one third of the world’s population if it is based on fraud or superstition?

Isn’t this exactly what you believe about every other religion?

 

[Shike]

Of course, not. That’s not the issue. I don’t doubt that the Christian martyrs actually believed what they claimed. But I also don’t doubt that the 9/11 hijackers believed that they were dieing for the truth, either.

Yes, good point. They both believe they are dying for the truth. But look at how the actions of the two differ, as do their effects. I don’t think the Apostles were actively seeking Martyrdom, but when it came they accepted it… one could point to John who was not martyred. Suicide bombers are active seekers.

And the effects… the effects.

If people do good things because they believe something false, the things they do are still good and what they believe is still false.

The point is to make you think if such a totality of good things could come from a false belief; this is where a survey of history is appropriate.

Consider all the good works of other religions that you hold to be false.

Sure… now what?

 

[tonyrey]

Precise details? Like what? Jesus rose on the 3rd day, according to the scriptures? What scriptures? Where does anythying in the Old Testament predict this event that is supposedly a fulfilled prophecy? There is no such prophecy.

Imposter or a lunatic? These aren’t the only possibilities. The question isn’t about believing what Jesus said. It is about whether we have any way of knowing what Jesus may have really said if he even ever existed. We know how such legends develop based on stories passed from one person to the next and in the end having little to do with what actually happened. We also know for a fact that scribes made stuff up and made stuff up since we have so many variant manuscripts.

There are many prophecies in the Old Testament that a Messiah would come to liberate Israel. The Psalms were written over 900 years before the birth of Christ yet they contain references to a suffering Messiah, particularly Psalm 22:

“1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother’s belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord’s: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.”

Leela, according to you scribes invented the finest moral teaching ever given to mankind, imagined a life and death reflecting that teaching, instituted an organization which has survived for over 2000 years and deceived countless millions of people in every country on earth, including many eminent scientists and philosophers, into believing their legend is true. This would be a greater miracle than the Resurrection!

You have not answered my questions: Is the greatest love is to give one’s life for one’s friends? Is there a solution to the problem of evil? Does the problem of evil even exist?

A famous English atheist philosopher, CEM Joad, became a Christian precisely because of the horrific amount of evil and injustice in the world. He believed the diabolical torture inflicted by the Nazis on Jewish children, for example, cannot be explained naturally. Perhaps you believe it can? If you believe we exist by chance I suppose you also believe good and evil are just human inventions…