Free will? I don't think so: Part 2

[Lunam_Meam]

John_Martin:

I desire what I do;

The question isn’t about you desiring what you desire. The question is, from where does your desire come from in the first place?

If it were you then you have created something unique to existence that God has not. That is impossible given Christianity’s current understanding of what God is.

God is the most powerful, perfect, intelligent Spirit, and He gave man His image and likeness (Gen. 1:27, Wis. 2:23): that is the soul. It is an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity that shows signs of the qualities characteristic of the Father Who created it, therefore it too is spiritual, immortal, intelligent, and free. Free as in “not subject to the control or domination of another”.

Could God still force our will? Yes, but He chooses not to coerce (force) the [free] will (desire) of any creature so that it may do His will (desire), or arrive where He wills (desires) all to arrive: in Heaven. Of one’s [free] will (desire) they either choose or reject the [free] will (desire) of God, and to do His work. Even if after having already reached perfection one disavows the good he has practiced up till then, and sells himself to the Evil One: God would leave him free to do it. There would be no merit if there were coercion.

When desiring only God’s will, and to do His work, His Spirit cannot fail to pass through the channel of your life into the lives of others. Many think it is humility to say they do little, and are of little value to His world. To think that is pride. What if the pipe were to say, “I do so little; I wish I could be more use.” The reply would be, “It is not you, but the water that passes through you, that saves, and blesses.” All you have to do is to see there is nothing to block the way so that water cannot flow through. The only block there can be in your channel is self. Keep that out, and know that His Spirit is flowing through. Therefore, all must be the better for coming in contact with you, because you are a channel. See this, and you will think it natural to know they are being helped, not by you, but by His Spirit flowing through you as a channel.

That is the Christian understanding of God.

Options give us potentials through which we might act out what we call our free will. Yet the will we act out is itself not only determined by the options it is given but also by the predisposition we were created with which is our compulsion to act at all in a particular manner.

What is your scriptural support for one’s desires being predispositioned by God? If they were, what’s the point of one’s desires changing at times? Why is not possible for one to desire, or desire something different than another without being predispositioned?

 

[annad347]

Injust read the last post… but I have to ask…

God would leave him free to do it.

You think God will leave us to evil? He would do nothing to bring us back to Him or be able to do so without coercion, free will or not?

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Injust read the last post… but I have to ask…

Lunam_Meam:

Even if after having already reached perfection one disavows the good he has practiced up till then, and sells himself to the Evil One: God would leave him free to do it. There would be no merit if there were coercion.

You think God will leave us to evil? He would do nothing to bring us back to Him or be able to do so without coercion, free will or not?

He always tries to keep, and bring one back to Him through His love, but again, not through force, even though He could. There would be no merit if there were coercion.

 

[Latin]

The question is, from where does your desire come from in the first place?

Good question @aitapyh. The answer of the Catholic Church.

The Father William Most Collection
St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination

I.(1) On human interaction with grace: Every good work, even good will, is the work of God.
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it”
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.”
.
Ibid. 6. 15: “If then your merits are God’s gifts, God does not crown your merits as your merits, but as His gifts.”
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Ep. 154, 5. 16: “What then is the merit of man before grace by which merit he should receive grace? Since only grace makes every good merit of ours, and when God crowns our merits, He crowns nothing else but His own gifts.”
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St. Augustine is called, rightly, the Doctor of Grace, for his great work. Augustine showed very well our total dependence on God. – John 15:5 … without me you can do nothing.

.
Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
.
CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
.
CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan. They then fully become “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.

God preserves the universe in being; He himself operates in and with every creature in each and all its activities.

So, without even realize it, we all freely will what God wills us to will and we all freely do what God wills and causes us to do.

There is nothing outside God’s creating, sustaining and governing will.
.
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
.
CCC 2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
.
God bless

 

[Lunam_Meam]

The Father William Most Collection
St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination

God is the most powerful, perfect, intelligent Spirit, and He gave man His image and likeness (Gen. 1:27, Wis. 2:23): that is the soul. It is an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity that shows signs of the qualities characteristic of the Father Who created it, therefore it too is spiritual, immortal, intelligent, and free. Free as in “not subject to the control or domination of another”.

Could God still force our will? Yes, but He chooses not to coerce (force) the [free] will (desire) of any creature so that it may do His will (desire), or arrive where He wills (desires) all to arrive: in Heaven. Of one’s [free] will (desire) they either choose or reject the [free] will (desire) of God, and to do His work. Even if after having already reached perfection one disavows the good he has practiced up till then, and sells himself to the Evil One: God would leave him free to do it. There would be no merit if there were coercion. He always tries to keep, and bring one back to Him through His love, but again, not through force, even though He could.

When desiring only God’s will, and to do His work, His Spirit cannot fail to pass through the channel of your life into the lives of others. Many think it is humility to say they do little, and are of little value to His world. To think that is pride. What if the pipe were to say, “I do so little; I wish I could be more use.” The reply would be, “It is not you, but the water that passes through you, that saves, and blesses.” All you have to do is to see there is nothing to block the way so that water cannot flow through. The only block there can be in your channel is self. Keep that out, and know that His Spirit is flowing through. Therefore, all must be the better for coming in contact with you, because you are a channel. See this, and you will think it natural to know they are being helped, not by you, but by His Spirit flowing through you as a channel.

 

[Latin]

THIS IS AS FOLLOWS THE TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON OUR SO CALLED FREE WILL

The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled hat Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, “ No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).

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GOD AIDES OUR FREE WILL AS FOLLOWS

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.
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Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His gift of grace of Final Perseverance.

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A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP James akin

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43]

1. Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “that great and special gift of final perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written: ‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13] which cannot be obtained from anyone except from him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]”

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CCC 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance. – Gives Infallible protection of the salvation of EVERY RECEIVER, there is no salvation without it. Infallible teachings of the Trent and formal teachings of the Catholic Church.

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COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
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CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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CCCS 1996-1998; Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.
This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”
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John 6:44; No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.

John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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God bless

 

[Lunam_Meam]

THIS IS AS FOLLOWS THE TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON OUR SO CALLED FREE WILL

God is the most powerful, perfect, intelligent Spirit, and He gave man His image and likeness (Gen. 1:27, Wis. 2:23): that is the soul (Ecc. 12:7). Do you deny this?

The soul is an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity that shows signs of the qualities characteristic of the Father Who created it, therefore it too is spiritual, immortal, intelligent, and free. Free as in “not subject to the control or domination of another”.

 

[Latin]

God is the most powerful, perfect, intelligent Spirit, and He gave man His image and likeness (Gen. 1:27, Wis. 2:23): that is the soul (Ecc. 12:7). Can you deny this? Do you deny this?

Thank for your post @Lunam_Meam, I don’t deny that.

The soul is an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity that shows signs of the qualities characteristic of the Father Who created it, therefore it too is spiritual, immortal, intelligent, and free.

I also agree with the above statement.

Free as in “not subject to the control or domination of another”.

I believe we are all FREE, God does not force us, as described below:

Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
.
CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
.
CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan. They then fully become “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.

God preserves the universe in being; He himself operates in and with every creature in each and all its activities.

So, without even realize it, we all FREELY WILL what God wills us to will and we all FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.

There is nothing outside God’s creating, sustaining and governing will.
.
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the FREE ACT OF THE WILL, (De fide dogma).
.
CCC 2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the FREE RESPONSE of man.

I believe we are all free as described above: Without even realize it, we all FREELY WILL what God wills us to will and we all FREELY DO what God wills and causes us to do.
.
God bless

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

God is the most powerful, perfect, intelligent Spirit, and He gave man His image and likeness (Gen. 1:27, Wis. 2:23): that is the soul (Ecc. 12:7). Do you deny this?

…I don’t deny that.

The soul is an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity that shows signs of the qualities characteristic of the Father Who created it, therefore it too is spiritual, immortal, intelligent, and free. Free as in “not subject to the control or domination of another”.

I also agree with the above statement. I believe we are all FREE, God does not force us…

Could God force our will? Yes, but, as we agree, He chooses not to force the [free] will (desire) of any creature, not even so that it may do His will (desire), or arrive where He wills (desires) all to arrive: in Heaven.

Of one’s [free] will (desire) they either choose or reject the [free] will (desire) of God, and to do His work. Even if after having already reached perfection one disavows the good he has practiced up till then, and sells himself to the Evil One: God would leave him free to do it. There would be no merit if there were coercion (force). He always tries to keep, and bring one back to Him through His love, but again, not through force, even though He could, as there would be no merit if there were coercion. Agree or disagree?

When desiring only God’s will, and to do His work, His Spirit cannot fail to pass through the channel of your life into the lives of others. Many think it is humility to say they do little, and are of little value to His world. To think that is pride. What if the pipe were to say, “I do so little; I wish I could be more use.” The reply would be, “It is not you, but the water that passes through you, that saves, and blesses.” All you have to do is to see there is nothing to block the way so that water cannot flow through. The only block there can be in your channel is self. Keep that out, and know that His Spirit is flowing through. Therefore, all must be the better for coming in contact with you, because you are a channel. See this, and you will think it natural to know they are being helped, not by you, but by His Spirit flowing through you as a channel. Agree or disagree?

 

[Latin]

Thank for your post @Lunam_Meam, I’m a R. Catholic, agree with your post the way the Catholic Church teaches it.

God bless

 

[Lunam_Meam]

…You’ve been rude, dismissive, and seemingly deliberately illogical…

…you seem to be here merely to “toot your own horn”.

No to all except dismissive, at least to what’s irrelevant.

Lunam_Meam:

Long ago I explained to you God incessantly sees what was, is, and will be simultaneously: eternal present. It is good you finally agree, however, “God’s foreknowledge is God” specifically refers to the future-tense" , so it does not make sense for you to say it is a statement about God being in the present-tense, or eternal present to be more precise.

I left out the bold because it was irrelevant to the sentence I quoted and the answer to that statement I gave.

It’s relevant because it gives the context behind my explanation for why the term “foreknowledge” doesn’t make sense in relation to the present-tense. That explanation is dependent on the idea of the eternal present.

You stripped away the context in a way that misrepresented my position, and understanding in order to cast yourself in a more favorable light, as if you were imparting some wisdom unto me.

So how is it that you think I was unaware of the theory of Gods eternal presence before you explained it to me?

Here is the truth of the matter…In Part 1 of this thread I entered the conversation with post 315. I entered the post debating with I believe Gorgias about God and his relation to time and eternity. In post 355 I said that God experiences time all at once (the divine concept of an eternal present) in reply to Gorgias post.

You entered the debate with post 1003. Your first mention of “God incessantly sees the past, present, and future.” was several posts later in a response to Gorgias concerning a quote of phil3’s.

That is 688 posts after I already had been discussing God and his relationship with time with other posters. So, if I was ignorant and arrogant enough to tell you that because I mentioned these things before you did that it was you who learned about time and God from me then these facts would prove the case.

Yes, my first post in the part 1 thread was 1003. My first post explaining the eternal present in relation to God, which I learned from Jesus, was to Phil3 (1152). I explained it again to MNathanial (post 1205), then lelinator (post 1245), and you (posts 1272, 1282, 1294).

In regards to your post 355 to Gorgias: “God experiences time all at once”, that is not the correct divine concept of eternal present. That’s why he, and months later I explained to you God knows, not experiences, the past, present, and future simultaneously, but I never said you were unaware of the theory of God’s eternal presence prior to me. You continued to disagree with our explanation, until post 1357 where it seemed you finally agreed, but apparently not.

(1 of 2)

 

[Lunam_Meam]

I will respond to your other postings later…

I will hold you to that.

With Christ’s love I wish you Gods peace

Ta. Likewise.

(2 of 2)

 

[annad347]

He always tries to keep, and bring one back to Him through His love, but again, not through force, even though He could. There would be no merit if there were coercion

How would you know?

Unless you are doing something you know specifically goes against what you know about God, how would you know?

 

[Lunam_Meam]

How would you know?

Unless you are doing something you know specifically goes against what you know about God, how would you know?

How would I know what?

 

[annad347]

If you were coerced or not?

 

[Lunam_Meam]

How would you know?

Unless you are doing something you know specifically goes against what you know about God, how would you know?

God is the most powerful, perfect, intelligent Spirit, and He gave man His image and likeness (Gen. 1:27, Wis. 2:23): that is the soul. It is an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity that shows signs of the qualities characteristic of the Father Who created it, therefore it too is spiritual, immortal, intelligent, and free, and so on. Free as in “not subject to the control or domination of another”. Could God still coerce (force) our will? Yes, but He chooses not to, because to do so would be to put disorder into His own ordered Thought, by no longer wanting what He previously wanted: free will. There would be no merit if there were coercion.

 

[annad347]

There would be no merit if there were coercion.

But we wouldn’t know the difference…just your trust in God, He didn’t, right?

 

[Lunam_Meam]

But we wouldn’t know the difference…just your trust in God, He didn’t, right?

God is the most powerful, perfect, intelligent Spirit, and He gave man His image and likeness (Gen. 1:27, Wis. 2:23): that is the soul. It is an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity that shows signs of the qualities characteristic of the Father Who created it, therefore it too is spiritual, immortal, intelligent, free, and so on. Free as in “not subject to the control or domination of another”.

 

[annad347]

Free as in “not subject to the control or domination of another”.

my point is what difference does it make, you will never know… unless what you are doing is specifically going against what you know about God.

Or God comes out and says, your not doing what I want… let me fix it… then whoops your swallowed by a big fish.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

my point is what difference does it make, you will never know… unless what you are doing is specifically going against what you know about God.

Or God comes out and says, your not doing what I want… let me fix it… then whoops your swallowed by a big fish.

Again, one can know, and many do know that mankind is not coerced, because God gave man His image and likeness: the soul (Gen. 1:27, 5:1, Wis. 2:23). It is an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity that shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, immortal, free like the Father Who created it. Free as in “not subject to the control or domination of another”.