Free will? I don't think so: Part 2

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Lunam_Meam:
Again, one can know, and many do know that mankind is not coerced, because God gave man His image and likeness: the soul(Gen. 1:27, 5:1, Wis. 2:23). It is an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity that shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, immortal, free like the Father Who created it. Free as in “not subject to the control or domination of another”.
Okay… 890
Meaning?..
 
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It means okay… but since I having read this thread from the beginning, anything I add might have already been discussed… not sure if I should bring it up again… so I’m just saying okay, mainly so you know I read your post.
 
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Lunam_Meam:
Again, one can know, and many do know that mankind is not coerced, because God gave man His image and likeness: the soul (Gen. 1:27, 5:1, Wis. 2:23). It is an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity that shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, immortal, free like the Father Who created it. Free as in “not subject to the control or domination of another”.
Okay…
If you disagree on the characteristics of the soul, feel free to explain why.
 
Sorry I meant I haven’t read this thread… hope you knew that.

as for the characteristics of the soul, we all have one, we are given free will to make choices… but I’m saying is we will never ever ever know who is really making those choices we make. There is no way of knowing for sure. It is just one of those things we will not know without a shadow of doubt until we enter heaven.

No matter what our characteristics are, what is written, what we believe… our only choices are follow God or not that’s it. Do what will bring us too God or not. Do what needs to be done to accept God’s love, mercy and grace or not.

Any choice we make is all be part of God’s plan… because He is always in control. Thank God.

but like I said, I have not read this thread from the beginning, and basically skimmed the last few post so this has probably already been mentioned and discussed.
 
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Any choice we make is all be part of God’s plan… because He is always in control. Thank God.
You are correct @annad347, Catholic theology proves it.
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Please @annad347, consider you are an architect.

You designed a building, you designed every event down to its minutest details which need to take place to complete your building.

You give the builders your building design, which contains every event/ act down to its minutest details.

Your Designed, Decreed, Foreordained Plan causes every event/ act
down to its minutest details which need to take place to complete your building.

Your building design creates/causes the builders their DETERMINED WILL and their DETERMINED ACTIONS which determined actions you tailor made everyone of your builders which need to perform to complete your building.

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GOD DESIGNED THE UNIVERSE AND WE ARE HIS BUILDERS – CCC 307, CCC 308, etc.

God designed the universe includes this world, He Designed, Decreed, Foreordained and He causes every event/ act according to His design down to its minutest details.

As we are God’s fellow workers" and co-workers for his kingdom, God’s building design creates/causes us our DETERMINED WILL and our DETERMINED ACTIONS which determined actions God tailor made every-one of us from all eternity, which acts we need to perform to complete God’s kingdom.

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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Without even knowing, we are all God’s builders, every choice we make, every act we perform, tailor made to each one of us, and Designed, Decreed, Foreordained by God from all eternity and He causes us to FREELY perform in order to complete the work of His creation.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;
“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.,”

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Divine Providence
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Because God work’s in us and He causes all our actions, we all freely do what we want to do and we don’t even realize, we are freely cooperating with His graces and working on to complete His creation.
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No one can go to hell for an act God orders us to perform. – Without God we can do nothing, not even a smallest act of sin.
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God bless
 
THIS IS THE WAY THE HUMAN MIND WORKS

St. Thomas explains THE CHAIN OF CAUSALITY

“It is to be observed that where there are several agents in order, the second always acts in virtue of the first: for the agent moves the second to act.

Because God is the cause of action in every agent, even man’s free will determination comes from God.

And thus all agents act in virtue of God Himself: and therefore He is the cause of action in every agent. ST, Pt I, Q 105, Art 5.”

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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan. They then fully become “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.
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Because God works in us He causes all our actions, we all freely do what we want to do and we don’t even realize, we are as His builders, freely cooperating with His graces and working on to complete His creation.

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The way God aides our will to freely cooperate as follows:

Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying grace, (De fide dogma).

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).

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For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate. "
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.
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The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.

The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.

Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation,
therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
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God bless
 
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@Latin,

Mankind is not coerced, because God gave man His image and likeness: the soul (Gen. 1:27, 5:1, Wis. 2:23). It is an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity that shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, immortal, free like the Father Who created it. Free as in “not subject to the control or domination of another”.

Could God force our will? Yes, but, as you agree, He chooses not to force the [free] will (desire) of any creature, not even so that it may do His will (desire), or arrive where He wills (desires) all to arrive: in Heaven.

Of one’s [free] will (desire) they either choose or reject the [free] will (desire) of God, and to do His work. Even if after having already reached perfection one disavows the good he has practiced up till then, and sells himself to the Evil One: God would leave him free to do it. There would be no merit if there were coercion (force). He always tries to keep, and bring one back to Him through His love, but again, not through force, even though He could, as there would be no merit if there were coercion. Agree or disagree?

When desiring only God’s will, and to do His work, His Spirit cannot fail to pass through the channel of your life into the lives of others. Many think it is humility to say they do little, and are of little value to His world. To think that is pride. What if the pipe were to say, “I do so little; I wish I could be more use.” The reply would be, “It is not you, but the water that passes through you, that saves, and blesses.” All you have to do is to see there is nothing to block the way so that water cannot flow through. The only block there can be in your channel is self. Keep that out, and know that His Spirit is flowing through. Therefore, all must be the better for coming in contact with you, because you are a channel. See this, and you will think it natural to know they are being helped, not by you, but by His Spirit flowing through you as a channel. Agree or disagree?
 
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…as for the characteristics of the soul, we all have one, we are given free will to make choices…

Any choice we make is all be part of God’s plan… because He is always in control.
Confusing. If our will [desire] is free, then you can’t also say it’s controlled. Furthermore, the soul is the unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity that shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. Upon being created it’s therefore intelligent, spiritual, immortal, free like the Father Who created it. Free as in “not subject to the control or domination of another”. So, if after God created our free soul He decided to control, or force it, then what is the point of having a soul, which is God’s image and likeness (Gen. 1:27, 5:1, Wis. 2:23), or existing at all?
 
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…then what is the point of having a soul, which is God’s image and likeness (Gen. 1:27, 5:1, Wis. 2:23), or existing at all?
To see what we do.

Like watch a child play with a toy for the first time. Watching what they do, the stories they create, the adventures, the drama, fun, excitement… it can be amazing to watch… than at the end of the day, you clean up the mess.
 
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Is there an explicit verse in the Bible that states we have free will?
 
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Two class of free will In Catholic Theology, libertarian free will and aided free will.
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Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces. – Only God has libertarian free will no one else.
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The Catholic Church vehemently rejects that; libertarian free will would be useful for us.

The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled that Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine providence explains;
“Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).”

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GOD AIDES OUR FREE WILL AS FOLLOWS

CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
.
CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan. They then fully become “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.
.
Because God works in us He causes all our actions, we are all freely cooperating with His graces and working on to complete His creation.

.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying grace, (De fide dogma).

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).

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The Father William Most Collection
St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination

I.(1) On human interaction with grace: Every good work, even good will, is the work of God.
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it”
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, providing most effective powers to the will.”
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St. Augustine is called rightly, the Doctor of Grace, for his great work. Augustine showed very well our total dependence on God.
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God bless
 
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Is there an explicit verse in the Bible that states we have free will?
God gave man His image and likeness: the soul (Gen. 1:27, 5:1, Wis. 2:23). It is an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity that shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, immortal, free like the Father Who created it. Free as in “not subject to the control or domination of another”.

Could God coerce (force) our will? Yes, but He chooses not to, because to do so would be to put disorder into His own ordered Thought, by no longer wanting what He previously wanted: free will. There would be no merit if there were coercion.
 
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Lunam_Meam:
God gave man His image and likeness: the soul (Gen. 1:27, 5:1, Wis. 2:23). It is an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity that shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, immortal, free like the Father Who created it. Free as in “not subject to the control or domination of another”.

Could God coerce (force) our will? Yes, but He chooses not to, because to do so would be to put disorder into His own ordered Thought, by no longer wanting what He previously wanted: free will. There would be no merit if there were coercion.
Not explicit.
You may be someone who needs to read “mankind has free will”, but you also need to realize there’s more than one way to say something.
 
Is there an explicit verse in the Bible that states we have free will?
I think that the idea itself that man could not have a free will came up much later in history in philosophical setting. I think that the first idea everyone has intuitively about oneself is that we have a free will, and the fact that the Bible does not mention explicitly free will is due to the fact that it was taken for granted.

In case you might be interested , I would like to report some verses from Saint Faustina’s diary, which she attributes to Jesus:

580 “Ingratitude in return for so many graces is My Heart’s constant food, on the part of [such] a chosen soul. Their love is lukewarm, and My Heart cannot bear it; these souls force Me to reject them. Others distrust My goodness and have no desire to experience that sweet intimacy in their own hearts, but go in search of Me, off in the distance, and do not find Me. This distrust of My goodness hurts Me very much. If My death has not convinced you of My love, what will? Often a soul wounds Me mortally, and then no one can comfort Me. They use My graces to offend Me. There are souls who despise My graces as well as all the proofs of My love. They do not wish to hear My call, but proceed into the abyss of hell. The loss of these souls plunges Me into deadly sorrow. God though I am, I cannot help such a soul because it scorns Me; having a free will, it can spurn Me or love Me. You, who are the dispenser of My mercy, tell all the world about My goodness, and thus you will comfort My Heart.”

http://www.seraphim.my/divinemercy/diary/text/DiaryII.htm
 
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Not explicit. sorry no dice.
You are correct @RootKitWarrior.
Because only God has Libertarian free will no one else, there is no dice in the Scripture or in Catholic Theology that we have Libertarian free will.
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In Catholic Theology there are two types of free will.
Libertarian free will and aided free will.

So, in Catholic Theology the question is: Do we have libertarian free will or aided free will?

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THE SCRIPTURE EXPLAINS THE WAY GOD AIDES/ CREATES OUR AIDED FREE WILL

John 6:44; No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.

Ezekiel 36:26-27; I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

John 15:16;
You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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While St. Thomas says that man turns to God by his own free will, he explains that free-will can only be turn to God, when God turns it. – Meaning: God aides/ creates our free will as follows, the way we all freely turn to God.

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CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH EXPLAINS THE WAY GOD AIDES/ CREATES OUR AIDED FREE WILL

CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works merit the grace itself of justification.
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“One is saved the moment one is initially justified.” James Akin.
He is director of apologetics and evangelism in the Catholic Answers.
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As we see above: God created us without our will, He justified/ saved us without our will, we can call it: God’s Love, Justice and His Duty of care.
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CCCS 1996-1998; Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.
This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”
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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
.
CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan. They then fully become “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.
.
Because God works in us He causes all our actions, we all freely do what we want to do and we don’t even realize, we are as His builders, freely cooperating with His graces and working on to complete His creation.

Continue
 
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DOGMAS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ALSO EXPLAINS THE WAY GOD AIDES/ CREATES OUR AIDED FREE WILL
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Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott.

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma).
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The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying grace, (De fide dogma).
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Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.
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Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His gift of grace of Final Perseverance.
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CCC 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance. – Gives Infallible protection of the salvation of EVERY RECEIVER, there is no salvation without it. Infallible teachings of the Trent and formal teachings of the Catholic Church.
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Form the Scripture, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church and from the Dogmatic teachings of the Catholic Church, it is absolutely clear, we all have AIDED FREE WILL and God is responsible for the salvation of the entire human race.
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God bless
 
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In Catholic Theology there are two types of free will.
Libertarian free will and aided free will.
God gave man His image and likeness: the soul (Gen. 1:27, 5:1, Wis. 2:23). It is an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity that shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, immortal, free like the Father Who created it. Free as in “not subject to the control or domination of another”.

Could God coerce (force) our will (desire)? Yes, but to do so would be to put disorder into His own ordered Thought, by no longer wanting what He previously wanted: free will. He chooses not to coerce (force) the [free] will (desire) of any creature so that it may do what He desires all to do: His will, or arrive where He desires all to arrive: in Heaven. Of my own [free] will (desire) I choose the [free] will (desire) of God, and to do His work. If after having already reached perfection, one disavows the good he has practiced up till then, and sells himself to the Evil One: God would leave him free to do it. There would be no merit if there were coercion.

When desiring only His will, and to do His work, His Spirit cannot fail to pass through the channel of your life into the lives of others. Many think it is humility to say they do little, and are of little value to His world. To think that is pride. What if the pipe were to say, “I do so little; I wish I could be more use.” The reply would be, “It is not you, but the water that passes through you, that saves, and blesses.” All you have to do is to see there is nothing to block the way so that water cannot flow through. The only block there can be in your channel is self. Keep that out, and know that His Spirit is flowing through. Therefore, all must be the better for coming in contact with you, because you are a channel. See this, and you will think it natural to know they are being helped, not by you, but by His Spirit flowing through you as a channel.
 
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