Free will? I don't think so: Part 2

[Lunam_Meam]

@aitapyh,

Free will? I dont think so

Free will? I dont think so

If my wording contradicted itself it was because I unintentionally failed to express myself properly, or more so because you continuously fail to understand or acknowledge the reasoning I present.

Neither. Initially, you clearly stated God’s foreknowledge is a template (see bold below):

…man follows the template of Gods foreknowledge for man.

After I asked what is your support for that you backpedaled by stating God’s foreknowledge is not a template (see bold below):

God’s foreknowledge is NOT a template for creation.

My statements:

“…man follows the template of Gods foreknowledge for man.“ and “God’s foreknowledge is NOT a template for creation." were not meant to be comments on equivalent subjects. One concerns man and his state of being, the other concerns the creative act of God. That’s why I said “for man“ and “for creation."

I was not addressing what you have said God’s foreknowledge is for, rather what God’s foreknowledge is. As I have shown above, you initially stated God’s foreknowledge is a template, then backpedaled by having stated His foreknowledge is not a template. And, now you are stating God’s foreknowledge is God:

Free will? I dont think so

Free will? I dont think so

God’s foreknowledge is God,…

Meaning?

God’s foreknowledge IS the reality of Gods will. We use the term foreknowledge for our comprehensive needs not as a descriptor of Gods actual condition. Consider this, foreknowledge implies a knowledge of something that has not yet happened. A future tense of a future condition. But there is no future tense for God. For God it is all present tense. So when I say Gods foreknowledge IS God I am saying that the term is only a statement about Gods ever present being because Gods being, his knowledge, and his acting are all synonymous realities. I believe this is how God has come to be defined in Christianity.

Long ago I explained to you God incessantly sees what was, is, and will be simultaneously: eternal present. It is good you finally agree, however, the phrase “God’s foreknowledge is God” specifically refers to the future-tense, so it does not make sense for you to say it is a statement about God being in the present-tense, or eternal present to be more precise.

Free will? I dont think so

And, you maintain man follows a preexisting template, but if that template did not preexist man in the form of foreknowledge, then in what form did it?

The “template” for man’s existence necessarily preexists those who must follow it.

In what form?

(1 of 2)

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Free will? I dont think so

Free will? I dont think so

I don’t believe our perception of free will is a false one, but it certainly may be a misperception.

Then, as I have said, you do believe free will is a false perception:

Definition of misperception​

: a false or inaccurate perception

Why are false perceptions necessary if mankind is coerced?

Why would you say this right after quoting my statement…

To show you I was correct all the times I said you believed free will is a false perception, and you were wrong all the times you denied that is what you believed, though out of ignorance because you did not realize “false perception” and “misperception” meant the same. Now, why are false perceptions necessary if mankind is coerced?

Free will? I dont think so

Free will? I dont think so

Free will? I dont think so

Why is reward and punishment, etc, necessary if mankind is coerced?

This is a moot point since we are born out of coercion to begin with. If these other things can exist as defined, and we are coerced to be born human, and what kind of human to begin with, then you tell me why they are necessary. In my opinion they are necessary to tell the narrative of creation. To give it definition.

The word “coercion” is not a synonym of “creating”.

Who said it was?

You did which is why I told you it is not.

Free will? I dont think so

Now, how does reward and punishment tell the narrative of creation, and give it definition in a coerced reality?

Coercion is an iffy term as far as what exactly it is applicable to here.

A coerced reality is what you are arguing for, but it seems you are not prepared for the challenge of reconciling that with reward and punishment.

Free will? I dont think so

And, for who and why is the narrative of creation told and given definition?

Scripture clues us into the answer to this…it is for God’s own good pleasure and glory.

Cite verse(s).

(2 of 2)

 

[Lunam_Meam]

@aitapyh, will you respond to all of the above?

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Or, will you not, @aitapyh?

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Your silence, @aitapyh, tells me you will not be responding.

 

[goout]

Your silence, @aitapyh, tells me you will not be responding.

As prophetic a statement as I’ve seen.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Give me the benefit of the doubt will ya. Sheesh.

My question only required a yes or no answer, and ever since I asked it three days ago, you’ve responded to other’s posts that required a lengthier response, so it seemed like a no.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

I will respond today,…

“Today” was over a week ago and you didn’t.

 

[AloysiusBologna]

Two guys in a boat headed for a waterfall…looking at the sky…wondering whether they have correctly identified a bird flying by…meanwhile…

 

[BT3241]

Relativity indicates the past present and future exist at once - why couldn’t free will be part of that equation? There is no reason why it can’t. If not why can’t it be part of the equation Next Saturday already has a fix point in time and space we have knowledge of it but we do not have the intuition of whats coming.

 

[RhodesianSon]

If free will doesn’t exist then how do you have the will to question its existence?

 

[RhodesianSon]

Be a pretty big design flaw to predetermine your automatons second guessing you.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

…NOTHING CAN PRECEDE GOD IN EXISTENCE. Because of that fact, God cannot create according to a template.

Yet, you’ve called God’s knowledge a template. And, that knowledge (template) preexisted the universe and its inhabitants. This would mean when God created the universe and its inhabitants He created according to a template: His knowledge. Otherwise, why call it a template? Besides, knowledge in itself isn’t, nor can it be a template!

Lunam_Meam:

“God’s foreknowledge is God” specifically refers to the future-tense

Not as concerns Gods condition.

In man…having foreknowledge is future-tense because it is contingent upon a knowledge which has not yet happened according to HIS knowledge. With God however there is no future tense. Since Gods foreknowledge is inseparable from what God is his foreknowledge cannot be in the future tense either. Referring to Gods foreknowledge is merely a convenient literary convention by which we mean Gods knowledge of creation existed before creation existed but not in a temporal sense. As concerns temporality God IS ONLY, indeed CAN ONLY, be referred to in the present-tense.

I don’t appreciate you quoting me out of context so as to try and save face. Now I have to repeat myself. Again, long ago I explained to you God incessantly sees what was, is, and will be simultaneously: eternal present. At one point you said the statement “God’s foreknowledge is God” is about God being in the present-tense, or eternal present to be more precise, but it can’t because (i) “foreknowledge” refers to the future-tense, and (ii) again, God incessantly sees what was, is, and will be simultaneously.

I don’t think it is strictly speaking a “false perception”.

The objective truth, according to you, is free will doesn’t exist. Therefore, one who believes free will does exist has a false perception, meaning they believe something that is objectively false. For months you’ve denied that those who believe free will does exist have a false perception, including in your previous post, though that time you added they may have a “misperception”, as if it doesn’t mean the same as “false perception”, but it does:

Definition of misperception​

: a false or inaccurate perception

So, do you stand by calling it a “misperception”? If you do then you’d be finally acknowledging I’ve been right.

Challenge?

Yes. If man lacks a free will, and are coerced by God, then we are essentially like the hollow pieces on a chess board, whom only God moves. So, what need is there for reason, intelligence, a soul, repentance, and God’s reward and punishment, etc? It’s not as if God needs to create/control other beings to be glorified, praised, pleased. And, you’ve agreed God is sufficient in Himself.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

I wasn’t aware that I had quoted you out of context since what I quoted even uses the word “specifically” which narrows down the context quite a bit. Nor was I aware that I was trying to “save face” as you put it.

You quoted me out of context because you left out the context (see bold):

Long ago I explained to you God incessantly sees what was, is, and will be simultaneously: eternal present. It is good you finally agree, however, “God’s foreknowledge is God” specifically refers to the future-tense** , so it does not make sense for you to say it is a statement about God being in the present-tense, or eternal present to be more precise…

Your quoting that sentence (see non-bold), and responding to it by reiterating the remainder of my post was an attempt to appear correct, rather than acknowledge having been corrected, thus save face.

Lunam_Meam:

According to you free will does not exist. For months you’ve denied that those who believe free will does exist have a false perception, including in your previous post, though that time you added they may have a “misperception”, as if it doesn’t mean the same as “false perception”, but it does:

Definition of misperception​

: a false or inaccurate perception

So, do you stand by calling it a “misperception”?

…I’m reluctant to flat out call our perception of free will a false one…

So, you don’t stand by calling it a “misperception."

(1 of 2)

 

[Lunam_Meam]

God’s knowledge is a template according to which creation must conduct itself. It is THE pattern, if you will, by which all of creation conducts its so called business. All things in existence conduct their actions according to this “template”.

I know the following:

(i) God is eternal.
(ii) Nothing preexisted God.
(iii) God created the universe out of nothing.
(iv) God incessantly sees what was, is, and will be.
(v) Angels and mankind are not coerced by God just because of [iv].

How does God’s knowledge of what was, is, and will be, in itself, fit into your belief we lack a free will, thus are coerced by Him?

Lunam_Meam:

If man lacks a free will, and are coerced by God, then we are essentially like the hollow pieces on a chess board, whom only God moves. So, what need is there for reason, intelligence, a soul, repentance, and God’s reward and punishment, etc?

I can only assume that God made this creation to include these things because it is a fundamentally more pleasurable creation for him.

Yet, those things aren’t a fundamental need for mankind, due to certain beliefs of yours, including our mutual belief God personally had no need for mankind, or anything else, as He is sufficient in Himself, which means He has only to contemplate Himself to rejoice, to nourish Himself, to live, to rest. Therefore, not only are reason, intelligence, a soul, etc, used needlessly through mankind by God, but our mere existence is needless.

(2 of 2)

 

[John_Martin]

When I am determined to do something, there is no other option, but it is “free will”, correctly meaning “not ‘under your compulsion will’, but ‘under my compulsion will’ to do what I alone desire.” I desire what I do; that alone is free will; options have nothing to do with will nor with free will.
Free will begins when decision is complete in elimination of options and love of the decided single path begins.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

When I am determined to do something, there is no other option, but it is “free will”, correctly meaning “not under your compulsion will, but under my compulsion to will to do what I alone desire.” I desire what I do; that alone is free will; options have nothing to do with will nor with free will. Free will begins when decision is complete in elimination of options and love of the decided single path begins.

Yes, God does not coerce (force) the [free] will (desire) of any creature so that it may do what He desires all to do: His will, or arrive where He desires all to arrive: in Heaven. Of my own [free] will (desire) I choose the [free] will (desire) of God, and to do His work. If after having already reached perfection, one disavows the good he has practiced up till then, and sells himself to the Evil One: God would leave him free to do it. There would be no merit if there were coercion.

When desiring only His will, and to do His work, His Spirit cannot fail to pass through the channel of your life into the lives of others. Many think it is humility to say they do little, and are of little value to His world. To think that is pride. What if the pipe were to say, “I do so little; I wish I could be more use.” The reply would be, “It is not you, but the water that passes through you, that saves, and blesses.” All you have to do is to see there is nothing to block the way so that water cannot flow through. The only block there can be in your channel is self. Keep that out, and know that His Spirit is flowing through. Therefore, all must be the better for coming in contact with you, because you are a channel. See this, and you will think it natural to know they are being helped, not by you, but by His Spirit flowing through you as a channel.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

…no time elapsed between God knowing creation and God creating that creation.

God is eternal, meaning no beginning or end, and He incessantly sees what was, is, and will be: eternal present. The universe, and its inhabitants, e.g., angels, animals, man, are not eternal like God. Therefore, there was a period when they didn’t exist, except in His Thought, and a point when God created (Thought was realized).

From Gods perspective our free will is dictated by his will. From a human perspective our free will is dictated by our perception of our awareness.

If God dictates, i.e. control, man’s will then (i) their will isn’t free, as in “not subject to the control or domination of another”, thus one’s belief man’s will is free is a false perception, or misperception, and (ii) there’s no need for reason, intelligence, a soul, reward, punishment, etc.

Yet, man is endowed with those traits of God, e.g., reason, intelligence, soul, and does merit reward or punishment from Him. You say its because it makes man more pleasurable to God, but you agree God is sufficient in Himself, meaning He had no need, not even for mankind to exist in the first place. His joy lacked nothing. He has only to contemplate Himself to rejoice, to nourish Himself, to live, to rest.

Therefore, the only way we can be pleasing to God in a way that doesn’t render Him insufficient in Himself, nor reason, intelligence, soul, reward, punishment, etc, useless would be to exist as free beings.

God doesn’t coerce (force) the [free] will (desire) of any creature so that it may do His will (desire), or arrive where He wills (desires) all to arrive: in Heaven. Of my own [free] will (desire) I choose the [free] will (desire) of God, and to do His work. If after having already reached perfection, one disavows the good he has practiced up till then, and sells himself to the Evil One: God would leave him free to do it. There would be no merit if there were coercion.

 

[annad347]

Haven’t read Part 1, but do you need to read Part 1 to become part of the conversation in Part 2.

 

[po18guy]

In a court of law, objection would be raised that you are badgering the witness.