Free Will in the Westminster Confession of Faith

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Exactly, but it’s not wasted, God knowing the beginning from the end, including foreknowledge of our choices.
 
Do you think the reason is not fallen? Or that the will is not fallen? Or both unfallen?
 
SojournerOnEarth said:
Do you think the reason is not fallen? Or that the will is not fallen? Or both unfallen?
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I think the fall damaged everything.

But we need to be very careful before we start trying to decide what, exactly, that means as it pertains to any one human quality.
 
Vonsalza said:
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SojournerOnEarth:
Do you think the reason is not fallen? Or that the will is not fallen? Or both unfallen?
Click to expand...
I think the fall damaged everything.

But we need to be very careful before we start trying to decide what, exactly, that means as it pertains to any one human quality.
Click to expand...
So it makes sense that a fallen reason informing a fallen will is the mechanism by which one is saved? “The airplane crashed and burned. That’s ok - if it doesn’t take off again, junk it.”
 
You have to have a good enough reason and a good enough will that you will choose God. So you are not saved by faith in Jesus Christ, by that reasoning, but by your own innate abilities. You don’t need God? No.
 
SojournerOnEarth said:
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Vonsalza:
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SojournerOnEarth:
Do you think the reason is not fallen? Or that the will is not fallen? Or both unfallen?
Click to expand...
I think the fall damaged everything.

But we need to be very careful before we start trying to decide what, exactly, that means as it pertains to any one human quality.
Click to expand...
So it makes sense that a fallen reason informing a fallen will is the mechanism by which one is saved? “The airplane crashed and burned. That’s ok - if it doesn’t take off again, junk it.”
Click to expand...
I don’t think the fall was akin to an airplane crashing.

In the aftermath, we were still identifiably human. So using the airplane analogy, think of a WWII airplane with a few AA holes in the wings. It’s damaged, but it sill flies. It’s still identifiably an airplane whereas a burnt pile of junk wouldn’t be.
 
You make the choice for God with the same grace that someone else has, but they reject God. Why is that? What sways the will? Is one person’s reason better than the other’s?
 
A crashed airplane still looks like an airplane. Are you saying fallen man can get to heaven without grace?
 
SojournerOnEarth said:
You make the choice for God with the same grace that someone else has, but they reject God. Why is that?
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I don’t know. But God does and that is the precise basis on which they’re justly judged.
What sways the will? Is one person’s reason better than the other’s?
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On the first, lots of things. A particularly charismatic presenter of the gospel, maybe? On the second, sure!
 
SojournerOnEarth said:
A crashed airplane still looks like an airplane. Are you saying fallen man can get to heaven without grace?
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No, just that they’re not completely and utterly non-plane-like. The damage wasn’t total.

The airplane still requires a divine mechanic to become shiny and glorified again.

It also illustrates the inherent weakness of using metaphors…
 
Vonsalza said:
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SojournerOnEarth:
A crashed airplane still looks like an airplane. Are you saying fallen man can get to heaven without grace?
Click to expand...
No, just that they’re not completely and utterly non-plane-like. The damage wasn’t total.

The airplane still requires a divine mechanic to become shiny and glorified again.

It also illustrates the inherent weakness of using metaphors…
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Metaphor crashed and burned…
 
Sounds like your back to random things, or personal superiority, being the deciding factor.

The sovereign election of God is much better.
 
Fallen, dimmed, not totally depraved. There’s something there to be awakened. Man’s main problem is his lost and wounded condition, not a changed nature.
 
fhansen said:
Fallen, dimmed, not totally depraved. There’s something there to be awakened. Man’s main problem is his lost and wounded condition, not a changed nature.
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Lost, wounded, unable to save himself.

Total depravity = the fall has touched all parts of us, not that we are as bad as we could be. And we are still human, yes. But on our own we have all turned away from God. Romans 3 and all that.
 
Yes, unable to save ourselves. And yet still able to say “no” to salvation
 
SojournerOnEarth said:
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fhansen:
Fallen, dimmed, not totally depraved. There’s something there to be awakened. Man’s main problem is his lost and wounded condition, not a changed nature.
Click to expand...
Lost, wounded, unable to save himself.

Total depravity = the fall has touched all parts of us, not that we are as bad as we could be. And we are still human, yes. But on our own we have all turned away from God. Romans 3 and all that.
Click to expand...
Man cannot save himself, but God also requires man’s free cooperation. Salvation isn’t unilateral.
 
The critical, thing is that man’s will, even a vestige of it, cannot be left out of the “salvation equation” without doing severe damage to the gospel message.
 
fhansen said:
The critical, thing is that man’s will, even a vestige of it, cannot be left out of the “salvation equation” without doing severe damage to the gospel message.
Click to expand...
And the WCF does not leave it out.
 
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