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GregoryPalamas
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Would that not require full knowledge of God first?
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brycelaliberte
Guest
The choice, given to us by God, in our power, to love God, or hate God. Everything we do works towards those two choices.
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
I’d guess it depends upon what is meant by “full”. They walked and talked with God in the cool of the day. They were naked before God. They knew Him but did not possess the knowledge of good and evil.
CDL
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Did “They walked and talked with God in the cool of the day” by choice? (or did other options exist?)
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JeannetteCML
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Just an aside… The Incarnation did not only take place because of the Fall. Jesus was to become man and Head of the human race with or without it.
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rtconstant
Guest
Like most of the posters here I see freewill as something that we had and continue to have and I agree that this is one of the aspects of our nature that makes us in the image of God. But God has many attributes.
Origen believed that Ignorance was at the core of man’s depravity and I see wisdom in this. If we look at much of what man does that is wrong it has a lot to do with the fact that were not aware of all the consequences of our actions, or that we don’t know the correct times and places to adjust our behavior before we go to far. When Adam and Eve were walking with God they had access to his knowledge and vision in an intimate way that I’m sure we would find impossible to fathom.
When Adam and Eve chose to do more than disobey God they chose to believe Satan. They chose a lie over the Truth. They chose to hurt the One that loved them. They chose to define their relationship with God not as Children but as gods themselves. Honestly you can see that decision even now. Don’t we constantly try to define right and wrong and our relationship with God in our own terms?
Now that we’re cut off from God we lack his wisdom in our day to day lives and this leads to sin. Jesus gives us grace through the Holy Spirit to understand correctly right and wrong and to see the consequences of our actions and the actions of others around us. The more we submit as children to the wisdom of God Our Father we can move back towards what we were originally intended to be. We start to become what God created us to be and leave behind the flawed and misguided vision we and Satan created.
Free will is ultimately necessary for both our fall and redemption.
Origen believed that Ignorance was at the core of man’s depravity and I see wisdom in this. If we look at much of what man does that is wrong it has a lot to do with the fact that were not aware of all the consequences of our actions, or that we don’t know the correct times and places to adjust our behavior before we go to far. When Adam and Eve were walking with God they had access to his knowledge and vision in an intimate way that I’m sure we would find impossible to fathom.
When Adam and Eve chose to do more than disobey God they chose to believe Satan. They chose a lie over the Truth. They chose to hurt the One that loved them. They chose to define their relationship with God not as Children but as gods themselves. Honestly you can see that decision even now. Don’t we constantly try to define right and wrong and our relationship with God in our own terms?
Now that we’re cut off from God we lack his wisdom in our day to day lives and this leads to sin. Jesus gives us grace through the Holy Spirit to understand correctly right and wrong and to see the consequences of our actions and the actions of others around us. The more we submit as children to the wisdom of God Our Father we can move back towards what we were originally intended to be. We start to become what God created us to be and leave behind the flawed and misguided vision we and Satan created.
Free will is ultimately necessary for both our fall and redemption.
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Seraphim25
Guest
First off give thanks to our father and to our lord Jesus Christ and to the holy spirit! I would like to say that Adam and Eve were deceived by Satan. For he says: Did God really tell you not to eat of the fruits in the middle of the garden? Eve says God has forbidden it and to even look at it lest you will die! Satan: Die! God surely knows that you will not die! For your eyes will be open and know from good and evil. So Eve took the fruit because it was pleasing to the eyes and also since it seemed good for gaining wisdom she then ate. Likewise Adam took of the fruit and did eat. Once they ate they felt naked and hide themselves in the garden. Once God intervenes God tells us that we no longer had a spirit but decay and death would now dwell with us. Also note that God created Mankind after Gods own likeness and image. The decendants of Adam did not have this attrinbute but instead the likeness and image of Adam. See the play on words here?
Once Adam and Eve ate the fruit we all became spiritually dead to God. Thus falling short to the glory of God.
Because God loves mankind sooo much he set up covenants to Abraham Jacob and Issac. And also to Moses with the Laws. The laws themselves developed more sin into the world because of the laws. For where their aren’t any laws no sin can abide but once there are laws sin flourished to make way for Gods mercy to overflow.
This is where Jesus Christ comes in. Jesus was sent by the Father to redeem humanity. In order for us to get back to the beginning of how God intended Mankind to be, Jesus had to come as a man. For he says thus: Though he was in the form of God did not equate himself to God yet humbled himself in human flesh and he made his dwelling among us full of grace and truth (paraphrasing here). John1
Jesus came into the world to save mankind and to give back our lost spirit. Just as Adam was called a living being Jesus also like Adam was given a quickening and life giving spirit . For by his hardships and by his stripes he was made perfect and the source for our salvation to all believe on him, for all who believe in him shall not be put to shame… Glory to you oh lord!!!
So to answer your question to why do we need Jesus? Jesus is the only way back to the father. Jesus became the last sacrificial lamb and became the high priest according to the order of Melcechidek.
We are now called Sons/daughters to the Most High by adoption through our lord. Without the Lord nothing is possible but with him everything is possible. And if Sons then heirs, heirs to the kingdom of god as we walk by faith and not by sight. We don’t know what it is going to be like in heaven but what we do know is that we will be like him…And just as he is known we too will fully be known. Thanks to you Father through our Lord…Amen Amen!!!
Once Adam and Eve ate the fruit we all became spiritually dead to God. Thus falling short to the glory of God.
Because God loves mankind sooo much he set up covenants to Abraham Jacob and Issac. And also to Moses with the Laws. The laws themselves developed more sin into the world because of the laws. For where their aren’t any laws no sin can abide but once there are laws sin flourished to make way for Gods mercy to overflow.
This is where Jesus Christ comes in. Jesus was sent by the Father to redeem humanity. In order for us to get back to the beginning of how God intended Mankind to be, Jesus had to come as a man. For he says thus: Though he was in the form of God did not equate himself to God yet humbled himself in human flesh and he made his dwelling among us full of grace and truth (paraphrasing here). John1
Jesus came into the world to save mankind and to give back our lost spirit. Just as Adam was called a living being Jesus also like Adam was given a quickening and life giving spirit . For by his hardships and by his stripes he was made perfect and the source for our salvation to all believe on him, for all who believe in him shall not be put to shame… Glory to you oh lord!!!
So to answer your question to why do we need Jesus? Jesus is the only way back to the father. Jesus became the last sacrificial lamb and became the high priest according to the order of Melcechidek.
We are now called Sons/daughters to the Most High by adoption through our lord. Without the Lord nothing is possible but with him everything is possible. And if Sons then heirs, heirs to the kingdom of god as we walk by faith and not by sight. We don’t know what it is going to be like in heaven but what we do know is that we will be like him…And just as he is known we too will fully be known. Thanks to you Father through our Lord…Amen Amen!!!
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GregoryPalamas
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I do not know. I would suppose that they freely chose it since free will was part of their nature.
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Stratiotes
Guest
In a purely philosophical sense, it depends somewhat on what one means by “free will.” One is not free in the sense that one can only choose what they want - we cannot choose what we do not desire.
In a sense also, your initial question about Adam and Eve is true as well. When they fell, they enslaved themselves and their descendants to sin - and being enslaved is another way of saying we are not free
. The balance between how much the enslavement has affected our free will is the question. Augustine drew one line (which is in the pale of orthodoxy), Aquinas another (which is also in the pale), and Calvin another (which is not in the pale).
I think that too often we take this question to extremes between those who have thought a lot about what predestination entails and those who have thought a lot about what free will entails - but it is not an “either/or” question…it is a “both” statement. We know that they are two sides of the same question but we do not know how - it is a mystery. The Catholic position seems to have always allowed more room for mystery while the Protestant has tended to try and define the balance. The answer is not a simple as it might seem prima facia.
Jimmy Akin did a fantastic job of comparing Calvin’s views on this topic with the various Catholic schools of thought. As a former Calvinist, I find a lot of people who have misunderstood the classic Calvinist position (not just Catholics but other Protestants including those who would call themselves Calvinist). Jim’s article is well worth the time to understand the question more fully:
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm
In a sense also, your initial question about Adam and Eve is true as well. When they fell, they enslaved themselves and their descendants to sin - and being enslaved is another way of saying we are not free
. The balance between how much the enslavement has affected our free will is the question. Augustine drew one line (which is in the pale of orthodoxy), Aquinas another (which is also in the pale), and Calvin another (which is not in the pale).I think that too often we take this question to extremes between those who have thought a lot about what predestination entails and those who have thought a lot about what free will entails - but it is not an “either/or” question…it is a “both” statement. We know that they are two sides of the same question but we do not know how - it is a mystery. The Catholic position seems to have always allowed more room for mystery while the Protestant has tended to try and define the balance. The answer is not a simple as it might seem prima facia.
Jimmy Akin did a fantastic job of comparing Calvin’s views on this topic with the various Catholic schools of thought. As a former Calvinist, I find a lot of people who have misunderstood the classic Calvinist position (not just Catholics but other Protestants including those who would call themselves Calvinist). Jim’s article is well worth the time to understand the question more fully:
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Had they chose not to walk walk with God, or to leave the Garden how could they have done either?
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GregoryPalamas
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They could rebel against God and the Truth and eaten of the tree and caused their own deaths. Which of course is the option they chose. It so dis-ordered the world that their ability to choose after that was severely hampered. Freedom is harmony with Truth. Death is not freedom.
CDL
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vern_humphrey
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Free will means we can choose to commit sins. Eating the forbidden fruit was a sin. If they didn’t have free will before they ate the forbidden fruit, how in the name of Holy Gilhooly could they ever commit the sin of eathing it?:whacky:
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GregoryPalamas
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Right you are. The problem with the wayward professor has to do with the modern concept of freedom as license and not freedom as coherence to truth. I think it’s Hobbesian and it has fully infested the Western mindset. I beginning to get some encouraging responses from the Theology faculty at the University. This could get interesting.
CDL
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vern_humphrey
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And you see some of that on these forums, when people use “free will” as justification for things like abortion. It’s the philosophy that underpins the “pro-choice” movement.
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Marsha_Adams
Guest
Free will also means that we can choose to obey.
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Marsha_Adams
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Right you are. The problem with the wayward professor has to do with the modern concept of freedom as license and not freedom as coherence to truth.QUOTE]
In the colonial south, The word “right” also meant “responsibility”, as in “Ye’ve a right to get that wood chopped afore yore pa gets home.” Now granted that was probably a colloquialism, but it has always struck me as being wonderful, That would mean the Bill of Rights could also be called the Bill of Responsibilities.
My point here (in case you think I have completely lost my mind and fallen totally off topic) is that I agree with you. Free will is the right to choose, the RESPONSIBILITY to choose and choose for the best. Eve was deceived and choose to trust the serpent over God, but even in that she thought she was choosing the better offer. (Dumb broad) but these days in exercising will how many even consider the “best”?
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vern_humphrey
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Yes, but Adam and Eve chose to disobey. And so doing, they showed Free Will before sinning.
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
GregoryPalamas;3633916:
I understood what you were saying and you are indeed ON topic. You brought a smile. Now about that “dumb broad” Pope John Paul II asks a very good question. Since Adam was to protect Eve where the heck was he was his beloved spouse was being tempted? Then look at how he pointed fingers after he succumbed to the same temptation. He not only blamed his wife but he blamed God for his fall.Right you are. The problem with the wayward professor has to do with the modern concept of freedom as license and not freedom as coherence to truth.QUOTE]
In the colonial south, The word “right” also meant “responsibility”, as in “Ye’ve a right to get that wood chopped afore yore pa gets home.” Now granted that was probably a colloquialism, but it has always struck me as being wonderful, That would mean the Bill of Rights could also be called the Bill of Responsibilities.
My point here (in case you think I have completely lost my mind and fallen totally off topic) is that I agree with you. Free will is the right to choose, the RESPONSIBILITY to choose and choose for the best. Eve was deceived and choose to trust the serpent over God, but even in that she thought she was choosing the better offer. (Dumb broad
Responsibility indeed!
CDL
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