Freemasonry A Evil Group

[SDA2RC]

Oh? Do tell. You’re saying the Church can err in matters of Faith and Morals?

No…thats not what I am saying… I am saying that while the church cannot err or lead us astray in matters of faith or morals, that does not mean that the knowledge and understanding of the Church cannot change. We are protected, not promised full light. For example, does banning Catholics from being a Mason lead anyone astray or away from God? No! Therefore the Church has not erred. However, does it mean that the Church cannot or will not come to a fuller understanding of something later down the road? No… Look at the Church’s response to Protestantism over time.

 

[jam070406]

No…thats not what I am saying… I am saying that while the church cannot err or lead us astray in matters of faith or morals, that does not mean that the knowledge and understanding of the Church cannot change. We are protected, not promised full light. For example, does banning Catholics from being a Mason lead anyone astray or away from God? No! Therefore the Church has not erred. However, does it mean that the Church cannot or will not come to a fuller understanding of something later down the road? No… Look at the Church’s response to Protestantism over time.

Good, then you agree that the Church cannot err when it states that the religion (and or philosophy) of Freemasonry and Christianity are not compatible and those that remain Freemasons are in a state of grave sin.

 

[SDA2RC]

Holly,
Thanks again for the links… Let me share with you my response to part of one… so maybe everyone will have a little better understanding with why we struggle with the Church on this point.

I am a former Seventh-day Adventist… reading much of the claims about Freemasonry is VERY similar to reading the claims about Catholicism by an anti-Catholic group such as Adventism. They are generally filled with partial truths and somewhat exaggerated in my experience.

Here is what the Scripture Catholic page says:

Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity because it promotes indifferentism.

Actually it doesn’t at all. In the first degree I was told to place my duty to God, my country, and my family above all else… including Masonry. I was never asked, instructed, or witnessed anyone claiming that all religions were equal… just that we need to respect all men of all religions. Not a bad thing at all.

Indifferentism is the heretical belief that all religions are equally legitimate attempts to explain the truth about God which, but for the truth of His existence, are unexplainable.

**Again, not really true. Freemasonry does not involve its self in what religions are true or not true… what their value is or is not, and it certainly does not claim that all are equally legitimate. Just that each person must follow his faith in God completely, and we are to respect those of any faith as people, not because they are correct, but because they are people. **

Such a view makes all truths relative and holds that God can be equally pleased with truth and error.

**None of the degree’s that I experienced or read ever make this claim. I have completed all three of the degrees of Freemasonry and was a 32nd Degree Scottish Rite member, as well as a Shriner. **

Because Christians believe that God has definitively revealed Himself in the person of Jesus Christ, and desires that all men come to the knowledge of this truth, indifferentism is incompatible with Christian faith. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6).

**This is all fine, but since we are not taught what is claimed in the first place… it is straw man argument. **

Freemasonry’s teachings and practices also result in syncretism which is the blending of different religious beliefs into a unified whole. This is evidenced most especially by Masonry’s religious rituals which gather men of all faiths around a common altar, and place all religious writings along side the Bible on the Masonic altar.

**There are no sacraments or religious rituals in Freemasonry… unless one includes prayer? There were no other religious writings on the Altar beside the Bible… we had members who were jewish, Christian, and Mormon. **

This is also demonstrated by the Lodge’s prayers and its unique names and symbols for God and heaven. Syncretism is the logical consequence of indifferentism.

**This is a claim with no substantiation. I suppose the supreme court, congress, high school sports programs, boy scouts, etc are all anti-Catholic because they use generic prayers? Funny I have seen Catholic priests and bishops attend and bow their heads during these functions. **

The Lodge’s practice of requiring its members to swear immoral oaths is also incompatible with Christianity.

**Were the oaths immoral… then yes they would be. **

These oaths require a Christian to swear on the Holy Bible that he will uphold a code of moral conduct that prefers Masons over non-Masons,

**Wrong again… and I have never met a mason who says that they have. We do swear to protect and help a fellow mason if we can, but not at the expense of anyone else. LOL The historical significance of these oaths and the fact that they are only symbolic is also explained so that the candidate can understand them in the context of the historical aspect of the society. **

and to preserve secret passwords and handshakes.

This part is true… we are asked to preserve the means of identification. This is certainly not immoral though… LOL

Such oaths are gravely immoral because their subject matter is trivial or does not give rise to the necessity of an oath.

**Well… like I said… two things are wrong here… First, trivial to who? Second, in my Grand lodge they were symbolic oaths not literal, it was a re-enaction of history. For example before the oath was administered the following was recited to the candidate. **

You are preparing to take upon yourself the oath of this degree. This oath contains certain penalties which are only symbolic and have never been applied to any mason by a duly constituted Masonic authority. Their purpose is for historical and symbolic teaching only. With this assurance on my part, are you willing to proceed and take upon yourself this oath?

These oaths are also sworn under symbolic, blood-curdling penalties of physical torture and death called self-curses (e.g., having my throat cut across, and my tongue torn out by its roots). These penalties show a lack of respect for God and amount to blasphemy which is a serious sin.

LOL… see the paragraph above. In addition, these oaths are not very different than those taken my knights and crusaders of the Catholic Church. God is certainly never disrespected or blasphemed.

So…looking at his review of why masonry is imcompatible with Christianity… I can either take my presonal experience of being there and going through it, or his explanation which is based on hearsay. If I based my decisions on hearsay, I would not be in this Great Church… After all, you know the oaths those Jesuits take.

 

[SDA2RC]

Good, then you agree that the Church cannot err when it states that the religion (and or philosophy) of Freemasonry and Christianity are not compatible and those that remain Freemasons are in a state of grave sin.

Yes and no…

I know that obeying the Church’s decision will not lead me away from God. But that is a negative protection. Should the Church review such a matter and realize it was wrong tomorrow, and revise its policy… she would not be in error then either, although the two are in direct opposition to each other.

Many of the things that the Church was fighting against when Masory originated was the idea that Children should be taught in public schools, democracy, seperation of Church and state etc. Things that in America we value, Catholic or not.

You should also realize that there is a rather large difference in the Masonry in Europe and America.

 

[jam070406]

Yes and no…

I know that obeying the Church’s decision will not lead me away from God. But that is a negative protection. Should the Church review such a matter and realize it was wrong tomorrow, and revise its policy… she would not be in error then either, although the two are in direct opposition to each other.

Many of the things that the Church was fighting against when Masory originated was the idea that Children should be taught in public schools, democracy, seperation of Church and state etc. Things that in America we value, Catholic or not.

You should also realize that there is a rather large difference in the Masonry in Europe and America.

Truth does not change!

Please refer to post #312. I believe KyivAndrew did a nice job of explaining things.

 

[SDA2RC]

Truth does not change!

Please refer to post #312. I believe KyivAndrew did a nice job of explaining things.

You’re right. Truth does not change, but our understanding of what truth is… does.

Based on the credentials laid forth in post 312 then no Catholic could be a member of the cub scouts, boy scouts, congress, etc…etc. All of which are all of the ism’s that are listed against Masonry.

I am not advocating anyone disobey the church, Masonry was much easier to give up than the relationships with family, friends, etc. that I lost when I converted. I am just saying that in my experience, the Church has evaluated it wrongly, at least American Freemasonry. But its a small thing to give up… really… irrelevant is the word compared to what you get in return. I just hate to see it demonized based on false information.

 

[jam070406]

You’re right. Truth does not change, but our understanding of what truth is… does.

Based on the credentials laid forth in post 312 then no Catholic could be a member of the cub scouts, boy scouts, congress, etc…etc. All of which are all of the ism’s that are listed against Masonry.

I am not advocating anyone disobey the church, Masonry was much easier to give up than the relationships with family, friends, etc. that I lost when I converted. I am just saying that in my experience, the Church has evaluated it wrongly, at least American Freemasonry. But its a small thing to give up… really… irrelevant is the word compared to what you get in return. I just hate to see it demonized based on false information.

And I hope you don’t think I’m personally attacking you. That is not my intent. Please forgive me if I gave that impression. I just get tired of people trying to justify or rationalize something against the Church and Her teachings. It gets very frustrating.
IMO, we need to trust and have Faith in Christ’s Church and not presume that we know better then her on these issues.

I’m sorry to hear about your relationships with your family.

 

[SDA2RC]

And I hope you don’t think I’m personally attacking you. That is not my intent. Please forgive me if I gave that impression. I just get tired of people trying to justify or rationalize something against the Church and Her teachings. It gets very frustrating.
IMO, we need to trust and have Faith in Christ’s Church and not presume that we know better then her on these issues.

I’m sorry to hear about your relationships with your family.

No… I didn’t feel attacked at all… and I completely agree that people need to trust and have faith in our Holy Church… which is why, although I dont understand it, I am willing to submit my judgement to that of the Church. I would also recommend that anyone else in the same position do the same! It will all make sense someday

 

[human_being]

You’re right. Truth does not change, but our understanding of what truth is… does.

Based on the credentials laid forth in post 312 then no Catholic could be a member of the cub scouts, boy scouts, congress, etc…etc. All of which are all of the ism’s that are listed against Masonry.

I am not advocating anyone disobey the church, Masonry was much easier to give up than the relationships with family, friends, etc. that I lost when I converted. I am just saying that in my experience, the Church has evaluated it wrongly, at least American Freemasonry. But its a small thing to give up… really… irrelevant is the word compared to what you get in return. I just hate to see it demonized based on false information.

Did you say you read the encyclicals posted in previous posts?

 

[JMJ_coder]

No… I didn’t feel attacked at all… and I completely agree that people need to trust and have faith in our Holy Church… which is why, although I dont understand it, I am willing to submit my judgement to that of the Church. I would also recommend that anyone else in the same position do the same! It will all make sense someday

Which is a good attitude to have. We don’t need to understand absolutely everything.

It’s sad that way too many Catholics who belong to a masonic group value their masonic membership more than their membership in the Mystical Body of Christ.

 

[JMJ_coder]

I can only answer for myself. Masonry is a group of men who WANT to be with other like minded men… who strive to be with other like minded men… to support each other, to help each other, to encourage each other and to give to the community. I have yet to find the strength of commitment, friendship, and connectedness that I found in Masonry.

I could be traveling 2000 miles away from home and if another mason saw me… I immediately had a friend that would go out of their way to create a friendship and bond. There is a trust and bond that I pray the church has one day.

This is not because of any teachings or anything… it is because these are a group of men who are all looking for the same thing… fraternal love.

I have experienced the same fraternity in the Knights of Columbus.

I would also say that the Catholic community is called to have the same regard (though we at times fail miserably in executing it).

 

[JMJ_coder]

Many of the things that the Church was fighting against when Masory originated was the idea that Children should be taught in public schools, democracy, seperation of Church and state etc. Things that in America we value, Catholic or not.

The Church hasn’t changed in these regards – and they are often misrepresented to begin with.

Democracy – the Church still teaches that the “mere will of men” cannot be a justification for any ill or current of fashion. All law, no matter how legislated, must be in conformity with the moral and natural law (cf. Pacem in Terris among others).

Public Schools – the Church still teaches that the primary responsibility and privilege to educate children lies with the parents. Also, the state does not have the right to indoctrinate evil through a public school system. (cf. Familiaris Consortio among countless others)

Separation of Church and State – this is an American myth. Our Founding Fathers never advocated such a wall of separation (and some rallied against the notion). In fact, for the first half century (at least) of this country’s life only Congress had any 1st Amendment prohibitions (as the amendment explicitly states). Several States (such as Connecticut) had state religions. The Supreme Court later ruled that the 1st Amendment should be expanded to include State and Local governments as well. But never was a complete wall of separation intended – the amendment doesn’t read freedom FROM religion. Even to this day the Senate opens with prayer. And the Church constantly teaches that we must bring our faith and morals with us into our public lives: “What is ethical, true and good privately is also ethical, true and good publicly! There is no such thing as a personal truth we hold privately and another truth that is public. Truth is truth.” (Bishop Gregory Mansour, The Maronite Voice, November 2008)

You should also realize that there is a rather large difference in the Masonry in Europe and America.

There may very well be differences – but remember the old slogan “guilty by association”. I’m sure that for most masons, they are never fully made of aware of the nefarious nature that is only revealed in the upper degrees.

But masonry promotes, among other things, an indifference (whatever you are masonry will make you better) towards God. They encourage to look to “oh, we all worship a ‘creator’, whoever you think that is, because it doesn’t matter”.

 

[Will8503]

When one searches freemasonry there are so many conspriacy theriost sights it is absolutly obserd. The below are some of the leading antimasonic sights on the web. all of
them in my opinion are either conspiracey therist or have a twitsted version of the truth or have their own hidden ajenda/ax to grind. Most people like to discount pro masonic sights. So what make anti masonic sights any more credible?

Instead of going off and looking at individual sites, it is best to just stick with what Christ’s Church says about masonry…and Christ’s Church says to stay away from masonry.

 

[workingman]

Instead of going off and looking at individual sites, it is best to just stick with what Christ’s Church says about masonry…and Christ’s Church says to stay away from masonry.

That is fine I do not have much of a problem with that. I am reposting some thing from a little earlier that I got no response to that does have me a little puzzled. So here it is. I just want to point something out.Oneheartway does have a point on is this.
Quote:
Oneheartway - only conflict I have ever seen is that during prayer, we do not invoke the name of Jesus Christ - I chose to do so in my heart. However, we accept Jews as members, and I am certain this is to allow each to seek god in their own way. Masonry is more like a philosophy than a religion, it brings men together who are good men who may not share the same religious upbringing. No one, including the church, argues the merits of the philanthropic side of Masonry.
Now Catholics will point out the problem with prayer going on to “false gods.” The point I would like to interject is this. After 9/11 There was no problem’s with a Multi faith prayer ceremony at Yankees field that included Protestant’s, Catholics, Jews, and Muslim’s present all offering prayers to “God” of their religion. The only sect of Christianity that did not represent it self was the LCMS. The LCMS did not represent it self just due to the fact they felt false gods were represented. So my point is this if it was not a problem at Yankee field why should that aspect be a problem in Lodge? I do not see any difference in it.

So can anyone explain the differences to me?

 

[JoeF9000]

“An evil group…” - In current day perspective - I seriously doubt this to be true. Go back a century or two or three… and individuals may have used their associations from within the Freemason Society to accomplish things which were, and may still be, against what the Church taught.

As an example - look at the history of Portugal. The Freemasons almost succeeded in taking over the Government. I researched this particular bit of history and came to the conclusion it was a few individuals, not the entire group.

Smashing a Papal insignia, never saw or even heard of this until now.

Not knowing any better, I joined the Freemasons and was active for a few years. For me, all I saw was a Fraternal Organization which promoted peace, self improvement, particularly through mathematics, and patriotism to whatever Government was in power in the various countries. I also drank a lot of beer. It was a club that also promoted good citizenship.

That said, I am no longer a member. Not because it is an “evil group”, but because I no longer need to be associated with “clubs”. Sort of grown out of that. Also realized the Fraternal organization of Freemasons was not evil.

I have always been the type of person that hears bad things, listens to stereotyping, and then has to go see for myself, and then make a decision.

 

[human_being]

That is fine I do not have much of a problem with that. I am reposting some thing from a little earlier that I got no response to that does have me a little puzzled. So here it is. I just want to point something out.Oneheartway does have a point on is this.
Quote:
Oneheartway - only conflict I have ever seen is that during prayer, we do not invoke the name of Jesus Christ - I chose to do so in my heart. However, we accept Jews as members, and I am certain this is to allow each to seek god in their own way. Masonry is more like a philosophy than a religion, it brings men together who are good men who may not share the same religious upbringing. No one, including the church, argues the merits of the philanthropic side of Masonry.
Now Catholics will point out the problem with prayer going on to “false gods.” The point I would like to interject is this. After 9/11 There was no problem’s with a Multi faith prayer ceremony at Yankees field that included Protestant’s, Catholics, Jews, and Muslim’s present all offering prayers to “God” of their religion. The only sect of Christianity that did not represent it self was the LCMS. The LCMS did not represent it self just due to the fact they felt false gods were represented. So my point is this if it was not a problem at Yankee field why should that aspect be a problem in Lodge? I do not see any difference in it.

So can anyone explain the differences to me?

This comes from a 50 page booklet byJohn Vennari called The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita.

"Yves Marsaudon of the Scottish Rite, in his book "Ecumenism Viewed by a Traditional Freemason", praised ecumenism nurtured at Vatican II.  He said:

Catholics....must not forget that this courageous idea of free-thinking, which we can really call a revolution, pouring forth from our Masonic lodges, has spread magnificently over the dome of St. Peter's."     Just a thought. I finally found my booklet and it sort of relates.

I sort of have some suspicious/paranoid thoughts of all the freedom stuff on conservative radio. I wonder if all of the freedom stuff really is any good,but I don’t know. I’m researching and studying and posting and who knows what we’ll come up with. I find it very hard to weed through stuff and come up with the truth anymore. Memorial Day starts in an hour or so. How ironic.

I just watched a movie on EWTN about St. Rita and I really enjoyed it. She ended a war between families even though her husband and twin sons were killed/died as a result of it. She brought the families together in the end and there was peace as a result of following Jesus’s way even though it very much contradicted the lifestyle of vendetta’s of Cascia at the time.
The booklet by Vennari is copyrighted 1999 and is adapted from an article published in Feb. 1997 of Catholic Family News. It kind of creeps me out because I have come across alot of people who seem to put American values (or principles of this country which were alot of freemason type ideas) above everything,maybe even above their faith. It's like the constitution is above the church to alot of people. The booklet describes(and I've just started re-reading it) a secret document written in the early 19th Century that mapped out a blueprint for the subversion of the Catholic Church. It was written by or for the Alta Vendita,the highest lodge of the Carbonari, an Italian secret society with links to freemasonry.

 

[Will8503]

‘’’

 

[workingman]

This comes from a 50 page booklet byJohn Vennari called The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita.

"Yves Marsaudon of the Scottish Rite, in his book "Ecumenism Viewed by a Traditional Freemason", praised ecumenism nurtured at Vatican II.  He said:

Catholics....must not forget that this courageous idea of free-thinking, which we can really call a revolution, pouring forth from our Masonic lodges, has spread magnificently over the dome of St. Peter's."     Just a thought. I finally found my booklet and it sort of relates.

I sort of have some suspicious/paranoid thoughts of all the freedom stuff on conservative radio. I wonder if all of the freedom stuff really is any good,but I don’t know. I’m researching and studying and posting and who knows what we’ll come up with. I find it very hard to weed through stuff and come up with the truth anymore. Memorial Day starts in an hour or so. How ironic.

I just watched a movie on EWTN about St. Rita and I really enjoyed it. She ended a war between families even though her husband and twin sons were killed/died as a result of it. She brought the families together in the end and there was peace as a result of following Jesus’s way even though it very much contradicted the lifestyle of vendetta’s of Cascia at the time.

 The booklet by Vennari is copyrighted 1999 and is adapted from an article published in Feb. 1997 of Catholic Family News. It kind of creeps me out because I have come across alot of people who seem to put American values (or principles of this country which were alot of freemason type ideas) above everything,maybe even above their faith. It's like the constitution is above the church to alot of people.  The booklet describes(and I've just started re-reading it) a secret document written in the early 19th Century that mapped out a blueprint for the subversion of the Catholic Church.  It was written by or for the Alta Vendita,the highest lodge of the Carbonari, an Italian secret society with links to freemasonry.

Interesting quote in the opening paragraphs. As for all the freedome stuff from conservative radio I have my own opinion of our President but I think that is best served in another thread. The great thing about truth is that in the long run it wins out and finds us though some times we seem to be slapped with it when it seems to late. God bless our vets past, present, and future. Now only if the world would fall in line with Jesus teachings.
The last paragraph is interesting in and of it self. I will have to try and obtain a copy of the booklet. Americans do hold very tight to the “American values” and to some people they do over ride the Church or Bible. As I have encountered those who do think as you suggest or as I have suggested. I state the following. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord. As you also state in the last paragraph about the CC being blueprinted for subversion this I submit will not be just the CC but all of Christiondome. This will not be nec accomplished by a secret society but by new laws encacted like in Canida considering Christian beliefs as hate speach.

P.S. I still don’t see a tie for the example of freemasonry and 9/11 prayer cerimony at Yankee stadium.

 

[IVDAE]

This comes from a 50 page booklet byJohn Vennari called The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita.

"Yves Marsaudon of the Scottish Rite, in his book "Ecumenism Viewed by a Traditional Freemason", praised ecumenism nurtured at Vatican II.  He said:

Catholics....must not forget that this courageous idea of free-thinking, which we can really call a revolution, pouring forth from our Masonic lodges, has spread magnificently over the dome of St. Peter's."     Just a thought. I finally found my booklet and it sort of relates.

I sort of have some suspicious/paranoid thoughts of all the freedom stuff on conservative radio. I wonder if all of the freedom stuff really is any good,but I don’t know. I’m researching and studying and posting and who knows what we’ll come up with. I find it very hard to weed through stuff and come up with the truth anymore. Memorial Day starts in an hour or so. How ironic.

I just watched a movie on EWTN about St. Rita and I really enjoyed it. She ended a war between families even though her husband and twin sons were killed/died as a result of it. She brought the families together in the end and there was peace as a result of following Jesus’s way even though it very much contradicted the lifestyle of vendetta’s of Cascia at the time.

 The booklet by Vennari is copyrighted 1999 and is adapted from an article published in Feb. 1997 of Catholic Family News. It kind of creeps me out because I have come across alot of people who seem to put American values (or principles of this country which were alot of freemason type ideas) above everything,maybe even above their faith. It's like the constitution is above the church to alot of people.  The booklet describes(and I've just started re-reading it) a secret document written in the early 19th Century that mapped out a blueprint for the subversion of the Catholic Church.  It was written by or for the Alta Vendita,the highest lodge of the Carbonari, an Italian secret society with links to freemasonry.

youre right, masons has spread their liberal ideas over the dome of st.peter from the masonic lodges.And now it is adapted some of the catholic church.Masons are really a evil group installing their masonic ideas all over the catholic church and thinking of the laity that they are marching under the apostolic banner.

My fellow Catholics…we must be aware that masonry is the synagouge of satan that try to subverse the church and to rule one world order!!!

 

[DallasTexas]

youre right, masons has spread their liberal ideas over the dome of st.peter from the masonic lodges.And now it is adapted some of the catholic church.Masons are really a evil group installing their masonic ideas all over the catholic church and thinking of the laity that they are marching under the apostolic banner.

My fellow Catholics…we must be aware that masonry is the synagouge of satan that try to subverse the church and to rule one world order!!!

IVDAE,

Thank you for your post.

In my six years in masonry, I don’t recall ever hearing a liberal idea… much less trying to spread anything over the dome of St. Peter.

Please feel free to talk bad about freemasonry all you want. Masonry is an easy target for anti-masons because masons have been taught not to defend masonry. However calling something that’s not evil, “evil,” does not make it so.

I am glad my brothers in masonry do not talk about the Church the way my brothers in the Church talk about masonry.

Peace be with you.