freemasonry

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DallasTexas said:
Gentlemen,

Hope this message finds you both doing well.

If I may chime in, some of the subject matter for which oaths are offered in a court of law appear to me to be a much higher grade of triviality than those of Freemasonry.

Thank you,
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I do not disagree. Can the differance be that most people who testify in court do not choose to go? I will not wake up tomorrow and start going to court unless asked or ordered to.
 
ralphinal said:
I do not disagree. Can the differance be that most people who testify in court do not choose to go? I will not wake up tomorrow and start going to court unless asked or ordered to.
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In addition, I quote you to you!

“… the Church does not disagree. However, it is considered acceptable to take an oath to testify in court. However, you can also say affirm instead of swear. Trivial and grave, however, is not an artificial one. Something is either serious or it is not. That is truth.”
 
RevDrNorth said:
Your point is well taken. For a Catholic it does not matter whether the Church is factually accurate in her assessment of Masonry what matters is that the church says X and so X must be followed. Of course not all Catholics do anymore than they follow Catholic teaching on Birth control.

Similarly in terms of Anglicans. Pope Leo’s argumentation about Anglican orders for the most part no longer holds water because of factors discussed here with reference to infusion of OC orders into Anglicanism, etc (things that happened after Leo was long dead). BUT…as GKC has pointed out, for a Catholic whether Leo’s argumentation is factually inaccurate does not matter. What matters is that the Church holds X so we assent to X. One has to repect that. Same with its position on Masonry. Even if the church is factually wrong in its condemnation, Catholics should be loyal to the Church.

The Masonic order through its members has blessed the world for centuries as its Brotherhood has contained some of the finest leaders in every human undertaking from the arts, the military, science, government and more (in the US & worldwide). Not only that, the Masonic order teaches men to be men of honor, integrity, character, good citenzship and reverence. Have some failed? I imagine just as some men in the Church have failed.
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You are correct many people dont follow what the church says, they disobey. and they are wrong to disobey the Church. But all we can do is pray that God gives them the wisdom and Grace to get back on the right track. We are all guilty of one sin or another, but being guilty is does not make us right. that is why the church has confession,and Priest to help lead us back to God. But again two wrongs dont make a right.
 
catharina said:
In addition, I quote you to you!

“… the Church does not disagree. However, it is considered acceptable to take an oath to testify in court. However, you can also say affirm instead of swear. Trivial and grave, however, is not an artificial one. Something is either serious or it is not. That is truth.”
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How did I forget that? I need to brush up on my Ralph:p

You know, I am not tired of this discussion. I have enjoyed it on all 6 billion threads. I do think that it comes to one thing: authority. We are called to accept the authority of Christ’s Church on Earth BECAUSE it is Christ’s Church on Earth. Dallas knows this, and he seems to be trying as best he can to submit. He seems ot feel conflicted because the reasons given do not jive well with his Freemasonry. The Church has never taught that we cannot try to change discipline if there is a need and we go through proper channels.

Let’s say that the Church refuses to budge, then it becomes an assent of will.
 
rinnie said:
You are correct many people dont follow what the church says, they disobey. and they are wrong to disobey the Church. But all we can do is pray that God gives them the wisdom and Grace to get back on the right track. We are all guilty of one sin or another, but being guilty is does not make us right. that is why the church has confession,and Priest to help lead us back to God. But again two wrongs dont make a right.
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Hell rinnie,

Hope you’re doing well.

What was the Church’s previous stance on cremation?

Thank you,
 
ralphinal said:
How did I forget that? I need to brush up on my Ralph:p

You know, I am not tired of this discussion. I have enjoyed it on all 6 billion threads. I do think that it comes to one thing: authority. We are called to accept the authority of Christ’s Church on Earth BECAUSE it is Christ’s Church on Earth. Dallas knows this, and he seems to be trying as best he can to submit. He seems ot feel conflicted because the reasons given do not jive well with his Freemasonry. The Church has never taught that we cannot try to change discipline if there is a need and we go through proper channels.

Let’s say that the Church refuses to budge, then it becomes an assent of will.
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Unless and until the Church makes a change,
one is REQUIRED to be obedient. There’s no option to that.

It reminds me of OT law:
Don’t eat pork. PERIOD.

God didn’t add (for those who liked to argue “reason”):
‘if you do eat pork in these days of inadequate refrigeration, you will almost certainly pick up tapeworms and be quite debilitated from those ingested tapeworms until you die.’

Nope. God only said: Don’t eat pork.
 
catharina said:
Unless and until the Church makes a change,
one is REQUIRED to be obedient. There’s no option to that.

It reminds me of OT law:
Don’t eat pork. PERIOD.

God didn’t add (for those who liked to argue “reason”):
‘if you do eat pork in these days of inadequate refrigeration, you will almost certainly pick up tapeworms and be quite debilitated from those ingested tapeworms until you die.’

Nope. God only said: Don’t eat pork.
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Correct.

For the record, most scholars today think that the pork ban was because in that area, a pig ate more food than he produced.
 
catharina said:
I guess I’ll keep repeating this until it’s heard. Membership in the masons is no longer punished by the Church with a decree of excommunication. . . .
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You don’t need to keep repeating it. Nobody disputes that the Catholic position against Freemasonry is illogical and inconsistent, and has no basis in it in theology, reason, or fact.

zerinus
 
I put this one one of the freemasonry threads. IT may have been this one. i want to put it here, again.

Did your mother ever tell you not to hang out with a certain person or date a certain person? Was she, in your opinion at the time, wrong about her reasons? How many times was it borne out that she was correct?

Momma told me not to play with these people. Momma might be wrong, but she is still Momma, so I can’t play with them.
 
ralphinal said:
I put this one one of the freemasonry threads. IT may have been this one. i want to put it here, again.

Did your mother ever tell you not to hang out with a certain person or date a certain person? Was she, in your opinion at the time, wrong about her reasons? How many times was it borne out that she was correct?

Momma told me not to play with these people. Momma might be wrong, but she is still Momma, so I can’t play with them.
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Yup. Go, Momma.

The Baltimore Catechism of my childhood would say:
Avoid even the near occasion of sin (people, places, things).
 
ralphinal said:
I put this one one of the freemasonry threads. IT may have been this one. i want to put it here, again.

Did your mother ever tell you not to hang out with a certain person or date a certain person? Was she, in your opinion at the time, wrong about her reasons? How many times was it borne out that she was correct?

Momma told me not to play with these people. Momma might be wrong, but she is still Momma, so I can’t play with them.
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I agree with that. If you are convinced that Catholicism is right, and has the authority of Jesus Christ, then you should follow its dictates. But there is a difference though. You didn’t get to choose your Momma. That was chosen for you. There isn’t much you can do to change that. But religion is a matter of choice; and we want to make sure we make the right choice. I think that we will be held accountable for the choices we make.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
I agree with that. If you are convinced that Catholicism is right, and has the authority of Jesus Christ, then you should follow its dictates. But there is a difference though. You didn’t get to choose your Momma. That was chosen for you. There isn’t much you can do to change that. But religion is a matter of choice; and we want to make sure we make the right choice. I think that we will be held accountable for the choices we make.

zerinus
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Thereis truth in that, unless you say that some have more given to them than others…
 
zerinus said:
I didn’t quite understand what you meant by that. Can you clarify please?

zerinus
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Jesus teaches us that to those that much is given, much is expected. In other words, those who have the Fullness of Truth, will be judged more harshly than those who did not.
 
ralphinal said:
Jesus teaches us that to those that much is given, much is expected. In other words, those who have the Fullness of Truth, will be judged more harshly than those who did not.
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What conclusion do you intend to draw from that? It also means that they will receive greater blessings when they are faithful.

zerinus
 
Nino said:
To whom it may concern, I work and lecture at a local historical site and meet people from around the world and who also are in many different types of organizations…one is the Masons…I have found them to be fine folks,Christians,Patriots etc…I have always felt they have suffered and been used by the ruling class to be one of ‘them’…the cause of most of the worlds ills! In fact I have been invited to speak to one of their lodges since they like my stories of faith ,hope and charity…and so an Orthodox Catholic…a retired Catholic high school teacher and a right-winger in politics…geesch…will be the featured speaker…who wudder taugt? Jesus said to go into the market place and preach…once several years back I was invited to speak to a so called 'christian mens luncheon club…some speakers…well the chaplain for the states famours pro hockey team etc…well,anyway I spoke,delivered some half dozen bios…and caught a reflection of hatred on the part of the president…a wall street tycoon…anyway…I asked permission for just one more,I got the OK and gave them the dramatic story of Pvt.Milton Olive,who in Nam gave his life for 5 of his white buddies…thus earning the congressional medal of honor…I ended with.and staring down the phony christian,declared how so many claim.'they’do nothing for this nation,all on welfare or into crime…lets never forget Milton Olive etc…I thought he would have kittens right there…I finished ,applause and packed up to leave…he kept glaring and never did hand me my little gratuity…as I left I am sure he and his friends heard the legendary cry…‘hi ho silver…away’ …good nite boys and girls…next week tune in for the exciting true story about the blind girl I met on a train years ago while in the service and how she helped a frightened GI thru some bad moments…she could 'see’better then most…Nino
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And NONE of that changes the fact that the Catholic Church FORBIDS membership in the Masons under penality of Mortal Sin – which leads to ETERNAL DAMNATION in hell UNLESS a person REPENTS of it.
 
DallasTexas said:
Yes, I am Roman Catholic. I believe that the Church has made an error with it prohibition against masonry.
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We’ve had this discussion before. If the church has ERRORED and is leading the faithful astray with FALSE teaching then it either can not be the Church that Christ established because Jesus said that the gates of hell would not over come HIS church.

Either that, or we can not believe in the promises of Christ.

Which one do you think it is?

Of course, there is the third option that the Church is correct and you are the one who errored.
 
zerinus said:
The biggest problem with the Catholic Church is that it cannot change; and that is going to be its undoing. The most important change that the Catholic Church needs to make in its organization right now is to open the priesthood to married men. They can learn a lesson from the LDS Church. I have never known a Mormon bishop who wasn’t married. But they won’t do it because they cannot change; and that will be their undoing.
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So you are saying that Christ’s promise that His church will stand up to the gates of hell is false?

Or, are you saying that the Catholic church is not the church established by Christ? If so, where is that church today?
 
Sir_Knight said:
So you are saying that Christ’s promise that His church will stand up to the gates of hell is false?
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No.
Or, are you saying that the Catholic church is not the church established by Christ? If so, where is that church today?
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We believe that church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

zerinus
 
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