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Stephen_Mills
Guest
If this is the Masonic Creed, it’s not objectionable at all.
- Status
S
system
Guest
It was the Masons who dedicated themselves to the destruction of Christianity. Read "the Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita by John Vennari , A Masonic Blueprint for the Subversion of the Catholic Church.
The Masons tried to destroy the church from without, but put members into the seminaries and it is rumored Pope John XXIII who called for Vatican II and it is KNOWN that Bugnini, who along with the Protestants created the New Mass was a known Mason that Pope Paul VI suspended him and later realized the errors of changing the Mass from the Tridentine Mass by saying “I have now let Satan into the Sacresty”. It is for that reason that my family and I, among other reasons attend the Traditional Latin Mass.
The Masons tried to destroy the church from without, but put members into the seminaries and it is rumored Pope John XXIII who called for Vatican II and it is KNOWN that Bugnini, who along with the Protestants created the New Mass was a known Mason that Pope Paul VI suspended him and later realized the errors of changing the Mass from the Tridentine Mass by saying “I have now let Satan into the Sacresty”. It is for that reason that my family and I, among other reasons attend the Traditional Latin Mass.
E
Exporter
Guest
flameburns623 http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_371309”, true);
Senior Member
Flameburns, you seem to know a lot about the Masons.So I will ask you a question.
When I was about 14 years old, another boy who was a friend asked me if I wanted to see some secret papers that belonged to his dad. Of course I said yes. He got them ( 3 typed pages) and I read or scanned them. It had the Lodge number or name at the top… The thing that grabbed my attention was this: It said to cut the throats of the Catholics and BASH THE HEADS OF THEIR BABIES AGAINST THE STONE WALL.
Does that mean anything to you. I will never forget that sentance.
Senior Member
Flameburns, you seem to know a lot about the Masons.So I will ask you a question.
When I was about 14 years old, another boy who was a friend asked me if I wanted to see some secret papers that belonged to his dad. Of course I said yes. He got them ( 3 typed pages) and I read or scanned them. It had the Lodge number or name at the top… The thing that grabbed my attention was this: It said to cut the throats of the Catholics and BASH THE HEADS OF THEIR BABIES AGAINST THE STONE WALL.
Does that mean anything to you. I will never forget that sentance.
H
HagiaSophia
Guest
jtnova:
The list of Masonic membership which made international headlines were tainted somewhat because when they were published a number of names of innocent people were mixed in with them in order to make the story appear less credible.
Notwithstanding all of this, the aims of Masons and those of the Catholic Church are diametrically opposed and no Catholic in good standing can join them.
Some of your statements confuse fact with apocryphal stories: it is not known that Bugnini was a Mason, many have charged him with being so, he swore on his priesthood that he was not and his two closest friends within the curia say he certainly was no Mason but had in fact beome a dedicated secularist and was unduly influenced by some of his Masonic friends.
The list of Masonic membership which made international headlines were tainted somewhat because when they were published a number of names of innocent people were mixed in with them in order to make the story appear less credible.
Notwithstanding all of this, the aims of Masons and those of the Catholic Church are diametrically opposed and no Catholic in good standing can join them.
F
flameburns623
Guest
From the following website:
freemasonry.iwarp.com/index.html
***WHAT IS FREEMASONRY?
**Introduction to Freemasonry
Freemasonry is one of the world’s oldest secular fraternal societies, whose members are concerned with moral and spiritual values. They are taught its precepts by a series of ritual dramas, which follow ancient forms and use stonemason’s customs and tools as allegorical guides. The essential qualification for admission is a belief in a Supreme Being. Freemasonry is open to men of any race or religion who can fulfill this essential qualification and are of good repute. Although it has a religious basis Freemasonry is neither a religion in itself nor a substitute for religion. It expects its members to follow their own faith. It has no theology or dogma and by forbidding the discussion of religion at its meetings prevents the development of any dogma. Nor is there a separate Masonic god. The use of honorifics, such as the Great Architect, is simply to enable men of different faiths to meet together, offer prayers and address their God without differences of religion obtruding. To the Christian the Great Architect is his God; to the Jew, Hindu, Sikh, Muslim etc. he is the God of his particular religion. **Freemasonry is not a secret society. Its aims, principles, constitutions and rules are available to the public and its members are at perfect liberty to acknowledge their membership. The only secrets in Freemasonry are the traditional modes of recognition. *A Freemason is taught that his prime duties are to his God, to the laws of the country in which he lives and works, and to his family. Any attempt to use his membership to promote his own or anyone else’s business, professional or personal interests, and any attempt to shield a Freemason who has acted dishonorably or unlawfully, is contrary to the conditions on which he seeks admission. By following the three Great principles of Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth a Freemason hopes to show tolerance and respect for the opinions of others; to practice charity within the community as a whole both by charitable giving and voluntary efforts; and to strive to attain truth and high moral standards in his own life.
See also the following links:
masonicinfo.com/
community-2.webtv.net/JohnFromHurst/WelcometomyMasonic/
I have already referenced John J. Robinson’s widely available Born in Blood and Duncan’s Masonic Ritual and Monitor, also widely available. Less readily located but worthwhile are Robinson’s A Pilgrim’s Path and Richard P. Thorne’s The Boy Who Cried Wolf.
It is profoundly difficult to discuss a controversial topic with people whose minds are thoroughly made up, who will neither read nor reflect upon anything other than secondary sources which confirm their preconceived biases. Most Roman Catholics recognise this from the mule-headedness of fundamentalists who insist upon calumniating Roman Catholicism without reference to good evidence. Why they allow themselves to fall prey to the same tactics vis’a’vis Freemasonry is puzzling
I have close friends who remain convinced that a Christian is ill advised to affiliate with a Masonic lodge. They have raised these issues with me only to be chagrined to discover the masses of misinformation on Masonry which are extant. They find it needful to retreat from what they presumed (often simply by dint of repetition and dissemination) were truths about Freemasonry. We have arrived at a point at which their criticisms are far more refined and qualified and they take considerable care to check their facts several times before raising an issue with me. And they have conceded that reasonable people can have honest disagreements about this subject. I am not boasting of my own powers of argumentation–I am pointing out that there is far more bad information out there than good information on Freemasonry, and that a fair person will quickly discover this.
freemasonry.iwarp.com/index.html
***WHAT IS FREEMASONRY?
**Introduction to Freemasonry
Freemasonry is one of the world’s oldest secular fraternal societies, whose members are concerned with moral and spiritual values. They are taught its precepts by a series of ritual dramas, which follow ancient forms and use stonemason’s customs and tools as allegorical guides. The essential qualification for admission is a belief in a Supreme Being. Freemasonry is open to men of any race or religion who can fulfill this essential qualification and are of good repute. Although it has a religious basis Freemasonry is neither a religion in itself nor a substitute for religion. It expects its members to follow their own faith. It has no theology or dogma and by forbidding the discussion of religion at its meetings prevents the development of any dogma. Nor is there a separate Masonic god. The use of honorifics, such as the Great Architect, is simply to enable men of different faiths to meet together, offer prayers and address their God without differences of religion obtruding. To the Christian the Great Architect is his God; to the Jew, Hindu, Sikh, Muslim etc. he is the God of his particular religion. **Freemasonry is not a secret society. Its aims, principles, constitutions and rules are available to the public and its members are at perfect liberty to acknowledge their membership. The only secrets in Freemasonry are the traditional modes of recognition. *A Freemason is taught that his prime duties are to his God, to the laws of the country in which he lives and works, and to his family. Any attempt to use his membership to promote his own or anyone else’s business, professional or personal interests, and any attempt to shield a Freemason who has acted dishonorably or unlawfully, is contrary to the conditions on which he seeks admission. By following the three Great principles of Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth a Freemason hopes to show tolerance and respect for the opinions of others; to practice charity within the community as a whole both by charitable giving and voluntary efforts; and to strive to attain truth and high moral standards in his own life.
See also the following links:
masonicinfo.com/
community-2.webtv.net/JohnFromHurst/WelcometomyMasonic/
I have already referenced John J. Robinson’s widely available Born in Blood and Duncan’s Masonic Ritual and Monitor, also widely available. Less readily located but worthwhile are Robinson’s A Pilgrim’s Path and Richard P. Thorne’s The Boy Who Cried Wolf.
It is profoundly difficult to discuss a controversial topic with people whose minds are thoroughly made up, who will neither read nor reflect upon anything other than secondary sources which confirm their preconceived biases. Most Roman Catholics recognise this from the mule-headedness of fundamentalists who insist upon calumniating Roman Catholicism without reference to good evidence. Why they allow themselves to fall prey to the same tactics vis’a’vis Freemasonry is puzzling
I have close friends who remain convinced that a Christian is ill advised to affiliate with a Masonic lodge. They have raised these issues with me only to be chagrined to discover the masses of misinformation on Masonry which are extant. They find it needful to retreat from what they presumed (often simply by dint of repetition and dissemination) were truths about Freemasonry. We have arrived at a point at which their criticisms are far more refined and qualified and they take considerable care to check their facts several times before raising an issue with me. And they have conceded that reasonable people can have honest disagreements about this subject. I am not boasting of my own powers of argumentation–I am pointing out that there is far more bad information out there than good information on Freemasonry, and that a fair person will quickly discover this.
F
flameburns623
Guest
It’s a widely disseminated urban legend, to which you have addended the details that you personally saw the paper AND that the Lodge # was on top. You apparently have no access to the document. Masonic documents are executed in code: were you perhaps a cryptographer in your boyhood? I attempted to read my grandfather’s Masonic material as a boy only to discover that fact.
In fairness to you: perhaps you saw just such a paper. As I have indicated, it is known to be a hoax. How your friend’s grandfather came into possession of the material is difficult to deduce: perhaps it was a handmade tract placed on his windshield, a not uncommon occurence at Catholic churches, Knights of Columbus sites, Mormon temples, and Masonic lodges. Fundamentalists of the Jack Chick ilk are inclined to engage in precisely such tactics. Official-looking notices get passed about to this day alerting citizens to be on the lookout for drug-laced (or poisoned) novelty tatoos which their children might inadvertently apply to themselves and be thereby harmed. One needs to be certain of one’s material.
T
TNT
Guest
So, the testimony of a Freemason toward outsiders, should be taken as Gospel?
If Bugnini was a Mason, lying to outsiders is standard fare. Secret Society remember? What would you expect him to say…“Ok, ya’ll caught me. I admit it.”
Evidence of a masonic connection must always be external to the suspect.
He had masonic “friends”???
A Roman Catholic clergy in the Vatican having masonic friends says a whole lot, for heavens sake. Did we run out of Catholics?? Did he stay close to such as Ottaviani or did he avoid them? He avoided them.
G
GoodKnight1443
Guest
Stephen Mills:
Stephen, My post was in response to flameburns623’s indicationthat the masons lack a religious creed/theology. One’s agreement with the content of the creed was not the question.
F
flameburns623
Guest
The only ‘official’ documents of Freemasonry are the Ritual established by the state or national Grand Lodge, the Charter of the respective Grand Lodge, and the Old Charges, the oldest surviving document of Freemasonry and deemed to be the founding charter of Freemasonry. The Old Charges expressly forbid any Grand Lodge from ‘moving the ancient landmarks’ (primarily the Ritual and the Charter) which severely impedes the ability of a Lodge to revise it’s Ritual or Charter.
Everything else is either not binding upon individual Masons and/or represents the speculation of individuals.
Which takes all of the fun out of quoting Pike, Mackey or other well known sources. Sorry.
T
TNT
Guest
Makes complete sense to me
We can both give plenty of Sites:
freemasonrywatch.org/siteindex.html
heru-ra-ha.tripod.com/topics/freemasonry.html
holygrail-church.fsnet.co.uk/Freemasonry.htm
Freemasonry is not “most ancient”
It begins in the early 1700’s…hardly ancient.
Where are the manifestations of freemasons in say, 800ad or 1100ad?
A whole string of popes have condemned freemasonry since the 1700’s. Why would they attack a benign organization since it came into existence?
As for books:
*Freemasonry Mankind’s Hidden Enemy *
- Humanum Genus (On Freemasonry)*
Pope Leo XIII
Paul A. Fisher
at:
tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/432/
Finally, you wouldn’t happen to have for us the last 2 degrees’ ritual of freemasonry?
If so, would you publish here?
F
flameburns623
Guest
I cited Duncan’s Ritual and Monitor, a paraphrase of Masonic ritual. Anything one might need to know is there. You’ll find it fairly dry stuff I wager. Believe me: nothing in the official versions is going to vary in any material fashion from the Duncan’s Ritual. Even the ‘secrets’ are substantially revealed. Since brother Masons are being quite poorly catechized these days, one could rather readily gain access to a Masonic Lodge simply by memorizing the Duncan’s Ritual, even though the Master of the Lodge is supposed to be familiar enough with the Ritual to detect such imposture.
Sorry I cannot provide you with the literal text of the degrees of any specific Grand Lodge. Try this instead: it’s one variant of the Old Charges.
freemasonry.bcy.ca/Writings/anderson_charges.html.
My point in providing links was precisely to refute the vast majority of the material to which you provided links. Your links are the equivalent of hate propaganda, not far dissimilar from the sort of material you would hopefully decry if referenced to Catholicism.
As I indicated in my first post, some renegade Continental versions of Freemasonry–the Grand Orient–were explicitly irreligious and political in nature. Freemasonry as it originally existed in the UK was neither of these. Robinson goes into some detail about how the Grand Lodge of England attempted to reign-in the variants to no avail. The French and Mexican revolutions have some connection to Grand Orient Masonry. Neither revolution were in particularly good odor with the Papacy. Ergo, to the degree that Freemasonry was associated with these, it also sat not at all well with various and sundry popes.
There is overwhelming evidence that Freemasonry existed prior to 1717. Had you bothered to read the links I provided you would find that references to Freemasonry go back so far as the 1400’s. ‘Ancient’ is a relative term. In any case, there is some measure of pomposity and hyperbole throughout much of the Ritual itself.
H
HagiaSophia
Guest
It would be difficult if almost impossible to deal with the higher levels of society in politics, finance, the arts and law in Italy and not have “masonic friends”. Bugnini and Ottaviani by their very POV’s of the Church and Vatican II would not have been close friends Masons or not.
S
St.James
Guest
Albert Pike-- Sovereign Grand Commander of the Southern Jurisdiction of Scottish Rite Masonry (the world’s most powerful Masonic body).
Freemason apologists may attempt to distance themselves from Albert Pike all they like. His statue still stands in Washington D.C. His body is still kept in “first” House of the Temple, the Supreme Council 33° Temple in Washington D.C. These things are very real testimony to the man’s great importance to Masonry.
It wasn’t binding upon Masons to honor Pike in this way, in which no other Mason has been honored, but they did, and that speaks for itself.
S
Stephen_Mills
Guest
Typically, when people feel very differently about a certain issue, the truth lies somewhere in between. Perhaps historically, freemasonry has been somewhat anti-Catholic in the same way that the Church has been anti-Mason.
I’ve been reading all the posts on this thread, and I see a lot people talking about how horrible Freemasonry is, however, I see few people presenting legitimate, non-sensationalized arguements as to why Masonry is wrong. (The poster who claimed that masons want to kill Catholic babies should be ashamed for perpetuating such lies.)
The question of whether Freemasonry is good or bad shouldn’t boil down to whether Masons have codes of ethics, special dress, etc… but whether or these things are compatable with the modern Catholic Church. As of now, I haven’t seen any core Masonic belief that is truly incompatible with the Church.
I’ve been reading all the posts on this thread, and I see a lot people talking about how horrible Freemasonry is, however, I see few people presenting legitimate, non-sensationalized arguements as to why Masonry is wrong. (The poster who claimed that masons want to kill Catholic babies should be ashamed for perpetuating such lies.)
The question of whether Freemasonry is good or bad shouldn’t boil down to whether Masons have codes of ethics, special dress, etc… but whether or these things are compatable with the modern Catholic Church. As of now, I haven’t seen any core Masonic belief that is truly incompatible with the Church.
F
flameburns623
Guest
Stephen Mills:
I have actually responded to that to some degree: Freemasonry as it existed in the UK lacks any such element of anti-clericalism or anti-Catholicism. Continental variants of Freemasonry, particularly the Grand Orient version, were virulently anti-clerical.
There aren’t many who don’t go clear off the deep end when broaching this subject. It’s fun to believe that Freemasonry is in league with UFO’s, Satanists, the Communist Party, Mormons, Jesuits, the Elders of Zion, International Bankers, and Her Majesty the Queen of England’s Royal Drug Pimp to undermine society as we know it and conquor the world. This is why Art Bell has a radio show. The fact is–no one thinks of the Elks, the Moose Lodge, the Eagles, the Odd-Fellows, and sundry other fraternal organizations as they think of Freemasonry. Roman Catholics are free to join these other fraternities for the most part–I do believe that some more-conservative Catholics are reluctant to do so, but there is nothing in canon law or elsewhere which interdicts these other organizations.
Thanks for your reasonableness. I have actually LISTENED to non-Masonic critics long enough that I could create a case for not joining the Lodge that would accept the Lodge on it’s own terms without all of the guff that gets generated. A pity that folks on the ‘other side’ decline to show the same courtesy.
O
oat_soda
Guest
what about the mason’s involvement in mexico when the government closed down all of the seminaries and catholic schools? this happened in an entirely catholic country! the masons persecuted and killed priests and nuns. look at all of the martyrs who fought for the church during this time. to this day, a priest can’t wear his collar in public in mexico.
membership in the masons wouldn’t be prohibited by the church if they were innocent or harmless. who could say that this country isn’t deeply influenced by this group. our country was extremely anti-catholic until WWII. they even tried to close down catholic schools in oregon. i’ve heard nearly all of the presidents were masons. look at our country now, we have legalized abortion 4,000 a day, contracepting our population, allow gays to get married, and allow people to kill themselves. this culture of death and the rise in the influence of the devil has to do with people rejecting the Catholic Church and embracing intellectual freedom. it’s a lie, which masonry is founded on. why did pope leo xii have to write an encyclical about the threat of masonry? was he lying? has the masons offically rejected their anti-catholic positions?
membership in the masons wouldn’t be prohibited by the church if they were innocent or harmless. who could say that this country isn’t deeply influenced by this group. our country was extremely anti-catholic until WWII. they even tried to close down catholic schools in oregon. i’ve heard nearly all of the presidents were masons. look at our country now, we have legalized abortion 4,000 a day, contracepting our population, allow gays to get married, and allow people to kill themselves. this culture of death and the rise in the influence of the devil has to do with people rejecting the Catholic Church and embracing intellectual freedom. it’s a lie, which masonry is founded on. why did pope leo xii have to write an encyclical about the threat of masonry? was he lying? has the masons offically rejected their anti-catholic positions?
S
system
Guest
Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy and vain deceit: according to the tradition of men according to the elements of the world and not according to Christ.
Annibale Bugnini.
Up until the turbulent 1960s, Catholic Liturgy and the mass we celebrated had been the result of centuries of divine inspiration, historic experience and wisdom, eventually codifying the words of the Mass at the Council of Trent, the very words our Lord and his Apostles passed down The old-rite mass had inspired artists, clergy and laymen as well as parishioners
This was undone in just a few short years by a handful of new thinking and pastoral men, one of very dubious distinction (which included six Protestant advisor/experts) responsible for this history altering sea change was a fellow by the name of Annibale Bugnini.
Life of Liturgy
Born in Italy in 1912 he became an ordained priest in 1936 at the age of 24. After only 10 years of parish duties, he began liturgical studies and shortly thereafter was appointed by Pope Pius XII to be secretary of his Commission for Liturgical Reform in 1948.
His real influence began in 1960 when he was appointed Secretary to the Preparatory Commission for the Liturgy. In 1962 using his influence, he was able to bring to fruition what was known as “The Bugnini Schema” .
Canned
Then just a few short months after this apparent victory, Bugnini was mysteriously and promptly removed from both his position as secretary of the commission and from his chair at the Lateran University. This unprecedented move could not have happened without the full consent of Pope John XXIII, or without the (to this day unknown) offense being egregious. No explanation was ever disclosed as to reason for Bugnini’s sudden removal.
In 1964, a commission called “The Consilium” was established to implement the first document on the Sacred Liturgy (passed in 1963 by the Council Fathers). Unexplainably, Pope Paul VI appointed Bugnini to the position of secretary of the Consilium, ignoring his predecessor who had removed him from the same position on the preparatory commission. Incredibly, Bugnini would now be in charge of interpreting the very same Liturgy constitution of which he was instrumental in creating.
In 1969 Paul VI ended the separate nature of the Consilium by dissolving it and making it part of the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship (which just 6 years later he would suppress), appointing none other than the fallen Bugnini as secretary. Now he was in the most powerful position possible to ensure implementation of his brainchild. He was later consecrated as an Archbishop in 1972.
Canned again
In what Bugnini describes in his book as an “earth shaking” move, he was once again summarily dismissed – this time by Pope Paul VI - from his any and all duties of influence. The Congregation of Divine Worship was suppressed and Bugnini was “exiled” to Iran. This sensational move immediately and permanently ended Mr. Bugnini’s career as a reformer. Once again under mysterious and unexplained circumstances Bugnini, the main architect of V-2 is harshly rebuked and essentially fired from all of his important duties.
Further facts regarding Mr. Bugnini
In March of 1965 in a periodical known called L’Osservatore Romano, he was quoted as saying: “We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren that is for the Protestants.”
I will not go into any depth of Bugnini being a Free Mason, because I don’t feel such necessary to shed light on his questionable and still murky past. I will state however that such charges are not without credibility and by no means “tinfoil” type summations based on less than credible evidence from shaky sources. Just do a google with “Bugnini” and “freemason” as keywords. To this day the Vatican will not deny such an affiliation.
Most loyal Catholics have no idea under what circumstances the revolutionary Vatican II or the modern “Novus Ordo” (translated: “New Order”) mass has come about.
Under the impression that our current method of adoration in general, or Vatican II in particular has been brought about as the result of divine providence or great prudence by men of impeccable character may be disturbed by much of the information provided in this article. They well should be.
Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy and vain deceit: according to the tradition of men according to the elements of the world and not according to Christ.
Annibale Bugnini.
Up until the turbulent 1960s, Catholic Liturgy and the mass we celebrated had been the result of centuries of divine inspiration, historic experience and wisdom, eventually codifying the words of the Mass at the Council of Trent, the very words our Lord and his Apostles passed down The old-rite mass had inspired artists, clergy and laymen as well as parishioners
This was undone in just a few short years by a handful of new thinking and pastoral men, one of very dubious distinction (which included six Protestant advisor/experts) responsible for this history altering sea change was a fellow by the name of Annibale Bugnini.
Life of Liturgy
Born in Italy in 1912 he became an ordained priest in 1936 at the age of 24. After only 10 years of parish duties, he began liturgical studies and shortly thereafter was appointed by Pope Pius XII to be secretary of his Commission for Liturgical Reform in 1948.
His real influence began in 1960 when he was appointed Secretary to the Preparatory Commission for the Liturgy. In 1962 using his influence, he was able to bring to fruition what was known as “The Bugnini Schema” .
Canned
Then just a few short months after this apparent victory, Bugnini was mysteriously and promptly removed from both his position as secretary of the commission and from his chair at the Lateran University. This unprecedented move could not have happened without the full consent of Pope John XXIII, or without the (to this day unknown) offense being egregious. No explanation was ever disclosed as to reason for Bugnini’s sudden removal.
In 1964, a commission called “The Consilium” was established to implement the first document on the Sacred Liturgy (passed in 1963 by the Council Fathers). Unexplainably, Pope Paul VI appointed Bugnini to the position of secretary of the Consilium, ignoring his predecessor who had removed him from the same position on the preparatory commission. Incredibly, Bugnini would now be in charge of interpreting the very same Liturgy constitution of which he was instrumental in creating.
In 1969 Paul VI ended the separate nature of the Consilium by dissolving it and making it part of the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship (which just 6 years later he would suppress), appointing none other than the fallen Bugnini as secretary. Now he was in the most powerful position possible to ensure implementation of his brainchild. He was later consecrated as an Archbishop in 1972.
Canned again
In what Bugnini describes in his book as an “earth shaking” move, he was once again summarily dismissed – this time by Pope Paul VI - from his any and all duties of influence. The Congregation of Divine Worship was suppressed and Bugnini was “exiled” to Iran. This sensational move immediately and permanently ended Mr. Bugnini’s career as a reformer. Once again under mysterious and unexplained circumstances Bugnini, the main architect of V-2 is harshly rebuked and essentially fired from all of his important duties.
Further facts regarding Mr. Bugnini
In March of 1965 in a periodical known called L’Osservatore Romano, he was quoted as saying: “We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren that is for the Protestants.”
I will not go into any depth of Bugnini being a Free Mason, because I don’t feel such necessary to shed light on his questionable and still murky past. I will state however that such charges are not without credibility and by no means “tinfoil” type summations based on less than credible evidence from shaky sources. Just do a google with “Bugnini” and “freemason” as keywords. To this day the Vatican will not deny such an affiliation.
Most loyal Catholics have no idea under what circumstances the revolutionary Vatican II or the modern “Novus Ordo” (translated: “New Order”) mass has come about.
Under the impression that our current method of adoration in general, or Vatican II in particular has been brought about as the result of divine providence or great prudence by men of impeccable character may be disturbed by much of the information provided in this article. They well should be.
S
Stephen-Maguire
Guest
Stephen Mills:
You don’t follow the teachings of the Catholic Church, we have too ! thats all we need, nothing more nothing less.
The following is part of their statement and is the most recent decree from the Vatican on the subject of Freemasonry and thus is the most current position of the Church’s law on this topic: “The Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic associations remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion” (Issued by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on November 26, 1983).
You don’t follow the teachings of the Catholic Church, we have too ! thats all we need, nothing more nothing less.
I know this was posted up above, but read it as often as it takes to sink in.
The following is part of their statement and is the most recent decree from the Vatican on the subject of Freemasonry and thus is the most current position of the Church’s law on this topic: “The Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic associations remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion” (Issued by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on November 26, 1983).
S
St.James
Guest
“The Occult Science of the Ancient Magi was concealed under the shadows of the Ancient Mysteries: it was imperfectly revealed or rather disfigured by the Gnostics: it is guessed at under the obscurities that cover the pretended crimes of the Templars; and it is found enveloped in the enigmas that seem (name removed by moderator)enatrable, in the Rites of the Highest Masonry … Lucifer, The Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light …? Doubt it not!..the World will soon come to us for it’s Sovereigns and Pontiffs. We shall constitute the equilibrium of the Universe, and be rulers over the Masters of the World.” (Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma)
F
flameburns623
Guest
St. James said:
AKA as a fictitious quote.
One of my friends owns a copy of Morals and Dogma. He was sadly disappointed to learn that Pike’s most notorious “quotations” simply don’t exist. Many were concocted by one Leo Taxil some twenty years after the death of Pike. Albert Pike was in fact one of the best minds in Freemasonry in the 19th century and led the southern jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite for some number of years. (Anti-Masons somehow never get it straight that the Scottish Rite is not synonymous with the Blue Lodge. They are separate organizations with overlapping memberships. Neither can they seemingly apprehend that there is no unified governing body of either the Blue Lodge–which has 51 separate Grand Lodges–nor of the Scottish Rite, which has two separate and distinct jurisdictions).
Taxil eventually went public with his hoax and mocked those who had so uncritically accepted his deceptions without any attempt to verify his claims. Among his most prominent shills, if history serves me correctly, was the good Pope Leo, whose encyclical against Freemasonry stands as a monument to gullibility. I do not suggest there are no reasons why a Catholic might not wish to join the Lodge. Nor that some manifestations of Freemasonry have not been explicitly anti-Catholic. I would suggest however that historical factors and the credulousness of Pope Leo the Whichever have led the RCC to take a hard line on an issue where silence would have been the better part of valour.
All of which being said: Pike considered himself something of a Christian sycretist–he felt Christianity had the pre-eminence among religions but that all religions contained some truths not part of the Christian revelation. He felt that Scottish Rite Masonry (not the Blue Lodge itself, but one of the appendant bodies of Masonry) could serve as a vehicle to align other religions under the Christian faith and bring about the unity of man. Noble goals but not truly Christian ones–and in no wise binding even upon Scottish Rite Freemasons.
It should be noted that the Scottish Rite itself is rather attenuated towards religious syncretism or avoids the topic of religious faith altogether. Non-Christian Freemasons who seek to belong to multiple Masonicaly-related organizations–which is NOT obligatory–prefer the Scottish Rite to the York Rite. The latter is explicitly Christian and no one can become a member of the York Rite who cannot aver that Jesus Christ is their Savior and that they belong to a Christian Church. No specific denomination of Christianity is specified and great pains are taken in the York Rite to give no impression of denominationalism.
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