Freemasonry

[HagiaSophia]

jtnova:

Under the impression that our current method of adoration in general, or Vatican II in particular has been brought about as the result of divine providence or great prudence by men of impeccable character may be disturbed by much of the information provided in this article. They well should be.

And the source for this wouldn’t be the SSPX would it?

 

[oat_soda]

I would suggest however that historical factors and the credulousness of Pope Leo the Whichever have led the RCC to take a hard line on an issue where silence would have been the better part of valour.

yeah flamer, your opinion has more weight then Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical on freemasonry. Too bad he didn’t have your enlightenment and foresight back then; in which case, he would have been a mason.

 

[Stephen_Mills]

Stephen-Maguire:

You don’t follow the teachings of the Catholic Church, we have too ! thats all we need, nothing more nothing less.
I know this was posted up above, but read it as often as it takes to sink in.

I don’t follow the teachings of the Church? This is certainly news to me. I was never for a moment suggesting that we disregard Church doctrine, but rather we question it. Sometimes, reform is needed within the Church, and we can be the engine of change.

 

[Lorarose]

The question of whether Freemasonry is good or bad shouldn’t boil down to whether Masons have codes of ethics, special dress, etc… but whether or these things are compatable with the modern Catholic Church. As of now, I haven’t seen any core Masonic belief that is truly incompatible with the Church.

Good point.
I have attended 2 masonic funerals for family members.
They both were protestant men.

It did appear to me to be a religious ceremony.
The men wore gloves and aprons and read scripture.
BUT - and this is what continues to confuse me - it was only Old Testament scripture.

There was absolutely no mention of Jesus - or our christian hope in His sacrifice.
Which I found to be very sad as these were christian men.
If there is ever a time to remind ourselves of the hope we have in Christ - shouldn’t it be at a funeral?

So…from my limited exposure to masonry - I concluded that it did appear to follow some sort of religious ritual and religious theology. This theology seemed devoid of Christ but not devoid of God and the Old Testament.
Which makes masonry strangely similar to judaism - although I saw absolutely nothing else that was similar to judaism.

Very confusing stuff.

 

[system]

Sure, do you have a problem with a Bishop like Archbishop Lefebvre who stood up for what he believed when he saw the sacred traditions of the church being thrown to the wolves? I guess the Pro-abortion Catholics like John Kerry may be more to your liking

HagiaSophia:

And the source for this wouldn’t be the SSPX would it?

 

[HagiaSophia]

jtnova:

Sure, do you have a problem with a Bishop like Archbishop Lefebvre who stood up for what he believed when he saw the sacred traditions of the church being thrown to the wolves? I guess the Pro-abortion Catholics like John Kerry may be more to your liking

Since the forum has advised us NOT to discuss SSPX I won’t get into Lefevbre.

And as for your “inferences” about me, I suggest you best keep those kinds of opinions expressed in that manner to yourself. That way invincible ignorance doesn’t spread.

Additionally the thread is not about me nor Levfebre - but about Masonry.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Lorarose:

Good point.
I have attended 2 masonic funerals for family members.
They both were protestant men.

It did appear to me to be a religious ceremony.
The men wore gloves and aprons and read scripture.
BUT - and this is what continues to confuse me - it was only Old Testament scripture.

There was absolutely no mention of Jesus - or our christian hope in His sacrifice.
Which I found to be very sad as these were christian men.
If there is ever a time to remind ourselves of the hope we have in Christ - shouldn’t it be at a funeral?

So…from my limited exposure to masonry - I concluded that it did appear to follow some sort of religious ritual and religious theology. This theology seemed devoid of Christ but not devoid of God and the Old Testament.
Which makes masonry strangely similar to judaism - although I saw absolutely nothing else that was similar to judaism.

Very confusing stuff.

Hi Lora, It is SAD,that they have a bible they display,but the truth is they dont believe what it says. Just another piece of furniture. God Bless.

 

[system]

Correct it is not about Archbishop Lefebvre, so dont throw SSPX at me. Who are you to judge anyone? I only referenced a known Mason, or at least a speculated to be know Mason who was fired for “undocumented reasons by two Popes”, in Annibale Bugnini, the Architect of the Novus Ordo Mass. So when I hear statements that the Novus Ordo mass was guided by the Holy Spirit while it was actually formulated by a Mason, who was at a Pastoral and not Dogmatic Council, I laugh and have to correct the misguided. A duck is a duck no matter how you dress it up.

HagiaSophia:

Since the forum has advised us NOT to discuss SSPX I won’t get into Lefevbre.

And as for your “inferences” about me, I suggest you best keep those kinds of opinions expressed in that manner to yourself. That way invincible ignorance doesn’t spread.

Additionally the thread is not about me nor Levfebre - but about Masonry.

 

[system]

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Freemasonry & The New Mass

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Masonry and the Church

“Since 1738 eight Popes have issued 17 condemnations of the Freemasons, reiterating the ban on 400 occasions.” These statistics are from the Masons themselves. The fact that Freemasonry is a secret society is enough to make membership illegal for Catholics. (That this ban has supposedly been lifted of late, we soon shall offer the obvious reason.) Masonic principles also fly in the face of the First Commandment: I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before Me.

And that their main thrust is against the Catholic Church we see from the following:

1.  Masonry is the *Novus** Ordo Seclorum *(as we see on our American dollar bill with its all-seeing Masonic eye) - the "New Order of the Ages." It also engineered the "Novus Ordo" - known, too, as The New Mass (the Novus Ordo Missae or New Order of the Mass. Indeed!)

2.  Much of their intent against the Church was explained by the Italian Masonic society called the Alta Vendita, in its 1819 "Permanent Instruction" to its members: "Our final end is that of Voltaire (the nefarious freethinker) and the French Revolution, the annihilation of Catholicity, and even the Christian idea, forever.... The work which we have undertaken is not the work of a day, nor of a month, nor of a year ...it may last many years, a century perhaps, but in our ranks the soldier dies and the fight continues. **Let the clergy march under your banners**," it goes on, "**in the belief always that they march under the banner of the Apostolic Keys (the Papacy)**." In other words, besides infiltrating the Church as was pointed out earlier, those of this secret society must also lead unwary Catholic religious to doing Masonic bidding through brainwashing, and/or threatening them into the idea that the new, revolutionary, Masonic dictums coming from the Vatican are really still Catholic!

3.  With the "watering down" of much of Christianity during our own age, so that the various "faiths" now move almost comfortably within each other, we see the coming to light of the Masonic cry "Liberty, Fraternity, Equality!" Freemasonry's aim is to be the One World Religion. Yes it is involved with political intrigue, but as the "Permanent Instruction" so aptly put it: "The conspiracy against the Roman See ought not to be confounded with other projects. Let us conspire only against Rome."

Has this happened?

We must say yes indeed, for behold: The New Mass. The Novus Ordo is the greatest triumph of the Masonic effort at Vatican II - the Council which Freemasonry has always plotted for and looked forward to, as the means by which to put into effect so many of its satanic designs against God and His Holy Church. The liturgical revolution concerning Holy Mass was spearheaded by Archbishop Annibale Bugnini - who was later found to have been a Freemason.

Novus Ordo worship service was written in the 1960s by a Freemason (Archbishop Annibale Bugnini ) and six Protestant ministers. In 1970 a photograph was published showing Paul VI posing with the Protestant ministers that had worked with Anibale Bugnini, head of the Consilium ad Exsequendam Constitutionem de Sacra Liturgia [Council to Carry out the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy], to draft the Novus Ordo worship service.

Not only were these six individuals heretics personally, but they were there acting in their official capacity as such. The six were Dr. George, Canon Jasper, Dr. Shepherd, Dr. Kunneth, Dr. Smith, and Brother Max Thurian, representing respectively the World Council of Churches, the Anglican and Lutheran communions, and the French Protestant Taize community.

After the Consilium had met and finished its work of suppressing the Traditional Latin Mass and replacing it with the New Order worship service, Dr. Smith, the Lutheran representative, publicly boasted, “We have finished the work that Martin Luther began.”

Source: “Masons and Bugnini”

There is much more to this article that is not propoganda but fact.

 

[Stephen-Maguire]

Stephen Mills:

Sometimes, reform is needed within the Church, and we can be the engine of change.

Only the Pope can make changes in the Catholic Church at the prompting of the Holy Spirit.
The Pope won’t make changes to please man, he can only do the will of God.
If there is a conflict between mans will and Gods will, which one do you think the Pope will side with ? Gods will off-course.

Re-invent the wheel ? :nope: ok Stephen God Bless.

 

[Stephen_Mills]

Stephen-Maguire:

Only the Pope can make changes in the Catholic Church at the prompting of the Holy Spirit.
The Pope won’t make changes to please man, he can only do the will of God.
If there is a conflict between mans will and Gods will, which one do you think the Pope will side with ? Gods will off-course.

Re-invent the wheel ? :nope: ok Stephen God Bless.

I understand that only the Pope can make changes, but why cannot the Holy Spirit be working through the Catholic Community causing a desire for change that the Pope may take notice of? The Holy Spirit works in mysterious ways. Don’t be so shortsighted.

 

[alex_noel]

Stephen Mills:

I’ve heard that masons are anti-catholic, but I have a few family members that are confirmed, practicing Catholics (whether or not they are good or bad Catholics is a different story)* and *freemasons.

Unfortunately if you are a Freemason you get automatically excommunicated so you can’t be a practising Catholic and a Mason.

My late grandfather was a very active Mason as was all his children. Thankfully God saved me from all this nonsense - I have never been a Mason nor have a had any inclination to join. I became a Catholic at 19

 

[St.James]

flameburns623:

AKA as a fictitious quote.

One of my friends owns a copy of Morals and Dogma. He was sadly disappointed to learn that Pike’s most notorious “quotations” simply don’t exist.

Distancing oneself from the questionable teachings of Albert Pike is the first step that the Freemason apologist must make. When that fails it becomes necessary to simply lie and claim that the quotations don’t exist.

The problem is that they do exist. This is not second hand information through a friend who owns a book. I know these words are accurate simply by checking my own copy of Albert Pike’s, “Morals and Dogma” 2nd edition copyright 1950.

Anyone who doubts this can easily verify who is lying by checking “Morals and Dogma” themselves. I’ve included the page numbers and the degrees for easy cross reference.

Here it is once more.

“The Occult Science of the Ancient Magi was concealed under the shadows of the Ancient Mysteries: it was imperfectly revealed or rather disfigured by the Gnostics: it is guessed at under the obscurities that cover the pretended crimes of the Templars; and it is found enveloped in the enigmas that seem (name removed by moderator)enatrable, in the Rites of the Highest Masonry …” (Page 839, 30th degree, Morals and Dogma, Albert Pike)

"Lucifer, The Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light …? Doubt it not!...(Page 321 19th degree, Morals and Dogma, Albert Pike)

"…the World will soon come to us for it’s Sovereigns and Pontiffs. We shall constitute the equilibrium of the Universe, and be rulers over the Masters of the World." (Page 817, 30th degree, Morals and Dogma, Albert Pike)

 

[St.James]

Correction - “The Occult Science of the Ancient Magi was concealed under the shadows of the Ancient Mysteries: it was imperfectly revealed or rather disfigured by the Gnostics: it is guessed at under the obscurities that cover the pretended crimes of the Templars; and it is found enveloped in the enigmas that seem (name removed by moderator)enatrable, in the Rites of the Highest Masonry …” (Page 839, 32nd degree, Morals and Dogma, Albert Pike)

This quote is from the 32nd degree, not the 30th.

 

[Stephen-Maguire]

Stephen Mills:

. Don’t be so shortsighted.

I’m not short sighted, there are those that want the Holy Father to do this and that in the Church.
If the Holy Spirit moves us indivudals do you think the Holy Spirit would move us to oppose the Pope ?
What did Jesus say about a kingdom devided agains itself, it cannot stand, so if there is a spirit in the Church that is not in harmony with El Papa, then it is not the Holy Spirit.

 

[St.James]

Stephen Mills:

Sometimes, reform is needed within the Church, and we can be the engine of change.

Martin Luther could not have stated his vision any clearer than this.

The Catholic Church is not a democracy. It is Christ’s church which protects and distributes Christ’s teachings and sacraments as they are revealed to us by Him.

I get frightened when people who have trouble distinguishing the differences between Catholicism and Freemasonry start talking about reforming the church.

If Freemasonry is more to one’s liking than the church perhaps they should choose sides and leave the church alone.

 

[HagiaSophia]

St. James:

Martin Luther could not have stated his vision any clearer than this.

The Catholic Church is not a democracy. It is Christ’s church which protects and distributes Christ’s teachings and sacraments as they are revealed to us by Him.

I get frightened when people who have trouble distinguishing the differences between Catholicism and Freemasonry start talking about reforming the church.

If Freemasonry is more to one’s liking than the church perhaps they should choose sides and leave the church alone.

 

[Stephen_Mills]

St. James:

Martin Luther could not have stated his vision any clearer than this.

I always understood was excommunicated for his beliefs. He didn’t leave the Church.
St. James:

I get frightened when people who have trouble distinguishing the differences between Catholicism and Freemasonry start talking about reforming the church.

If Freemasonry is more to one’s liking than the church perhaps they should choose sides and leave the church alone.

I still don’t know what you’re talking about with Freemasonry being against the Church. As I’ve stated in my posts above, I’d be happy to go along with Church teaching on this topic if sufficient evidence were provided as to why Masonry is wrong.

From what I’ve seen, Freemason though is not opposed to Catholicism in the least.

I certainly hope you’re not suggesting I leave the Church because of my views on Masonry. I simply started this thread because I wanted to know what Masons are all about. All I really know about the group is what’s been discussed within this forum.

 

[St.James]

Masonry is pantheism and indifferentism. The Church condemns pantheism and indifferentism as heresy.

This is one of a million reasons why Masonry and Catholicism are entirely incompatible. But even if this was the only reason, it’s reason enough for anyone who takes their faith seriously.

I suggest that you read through this entire thread again carefully. If you still don’t understand, read it through again carefully …

 

[Stephen_Mills]

St. James:

Masonry is pantheism and indifferentism. The Church condemns pantheism and indifferentism as heresy.

This is one of a million reasons why Masonry and Catholicism are entirely incompatible. But even if this was the only reason, it’s reason enough for anyone who takes their faith seriously.

I suggest that you read through this entire thread again carefully. If you still don’t understand, read it through again carefully …

Hmm…the pantheist and indifferentist arguement would only work if you could prove Freemasonry to be a religion. Somehow I doubt if I asked a Mason what their religion was that the would respond, “Freemason”.

Under your criteria of heresy, the United States government is heretical. This is ridiculous.