Freemasonry

[St.James]

St. James:

Freemasonry either has a philosophy or it doesn’t.

jamesclaude:

Oh, it does - I assure you.

Of course it does. And since Freemasonry has a philosophy, that philosophy must be able to be stated, otherwise Masonry would not be able to relay that philosophy to others and alledgedly “take good men and make them better.”

This Masonic philosophy, based upon naturalism and indifferentism, is what the church condemns and rightfully so. The philosophy of Masonry is in complete conflict with the most basic tenets of Christian faith.

Masonry may allow for people to simultaneously hold two conflicting beliefs and remain in good standing–such is the nature of all things diabolical (of the Devil, diable, the double). but Christianity does not make such allowances.

"Therefore let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is inconstant in all his ways." (James 1; 7-8)

http://www.ummah.net.pk/dajjal/eagle.gif

The double mind of Freemasonry and all things occult.

 

[jamesclaude]

St. James:

This Masonic philosophy, based upon naturalism and indifferentism, is what the church condemns and rightfully so.

Webster defines “naturalism” as 1) action, inclination, or thought based only on natural desires and instincts.

( Masons are instructed early on to “subdue your passions” and live upright, moral lives)

1. a theory denying that an event or object has a supernatural significance - that scientific laws are adequate to account for all phenomena.

Masons always invoke the blessing of Diety before embarking upon any laudable undertaking. An altar is the centerpiece of every masonic lodge -open upon it are the sacred book(s) of faith - Bible, Koran, Torah - whatever best reflects the membership present in the lodge room at the time. We are not a Christian organization, although there are appendant bodies within Masonry ( Knights Templar in the York Rite ) that require Trinitarian Christian beliefs ). Compare Masonry, Lions, Kiwanis with any church, and you’re wasting your time !

1. realism in art or literature; specifically: a theory in literature emphasizing observation of life without idealization or the avoidance of the ugly. ( italics: mine)

Tell that to famous masons Cecil B. DeMille, Daryl Zanuck, Sir Aurthur Conan Doyle, Benjamin Franklin, James Audubon, Sir Walter Scott, Mark Twain, Robert Burns, Rudyard Kipling, etc.

Masons use the beautiful features of architecture in all of their degrees- Tuscan, Doric, Corinthian, Composite, etc.

Beauty and the joy of life are keystones to living - Brothers Mel Blanc, Danny Thomas, Roy Rogers, Tom Mix, Red Skelton, John Wayne, Ernest Borgnine, Will Rogers, Telly Savalas, Dave Thomas ( of Wendy’s) Michael Richards ( “Kramer” on Seinfeld), all exemplify this…

Ugly music ? ( Roman Catholic ) brothers Franz Haydn, Wolfgang Mozart. Others: Sibelius, John P. Sousa, Roy Clark, Mel Tillis, etc.

“Indiferrent” ? From the list above, I’d say that Masons are quite actively engaged in the fullness of God’s creation and creativity.

The philosophy of Masonry is in complete conflict with the most basic tenets of Christian faith.

The motto: " I am my brother’s keeper " is posted directly above the door in many lodgerooms. Relief, charity and brotherly love are the principle tenets of masonry. Didn’t Jesus teach this ? Again- I remind you that Freemasonry is NOT the Christian Church - and doesn’t seek to compete with nor replace it.

Masonry may allow for people to simultaneously hold two conflicting beliefs and remain in good standing–such is the nature of all things diabolical (of the Devil, diable, the double). but Christianity does not make such allowances.

http://www.ummah.net.pk/dajjal/eagle.gif

The double mind of Freemasonry and all things occult.

This elegant and ancient symbol is hardly evil or occult. It represents a Scottish Rite Council that met in Paris in 1758 - with jurisdictions in Europe’s East and West. This eagle is guarding against the Profane - from two directions.

The Prussian King, Frederick the Great ( a Roman Catholic ) is credited with authorship of the Rite’s “Constitutions” soon after, in 1786.

I say to-MAY-to- you say to-MAH-to - evil yard bird- or whatever you wish - that’s what it actually means.

The banner of the 32nd Degree contains the phrase: " Spes Meo in Deo Est " ( My hope is in God )

The 33rd Degree’s banner which you see above includes the phrase: " Deus Memque Jus" ( God - and my right ). Masons generically refer to God as “The Supreme Architect of the Universe” - I find that refreshing - especially after seeing another thread in this Forum referring to “Jesus is my Homeboy” !

Masons revere God and humbly bow before Him. The Worshipful Master in a lodge is exactly that - “full of worship” ! He ALWAYS removes his hat when mentioning God as a symbol of respect. In the York Rite Royal Arch degrees, an arch is placed in the uppermost part of the lodge room - on it are the words pronounced by the Hebrew priests: " Holiness to the Lord".

 

[SPOKENWORD]

jamesclaude:

Webster defines “naturalism” as 1) action, inclination, or thought based only on natural desires and instincts.

( Masons are instructed early on to “subdue your passions” and live upright, moral lives)

1. a theory denying that an event or object has a supernatural significance - that scientific laws are adequate to account for all phenomena.

Masons always invoke the blessing of Diety before embarking upon any laudable undertaking. An altar is the centerpiece of every masonic lodge -open upon it are the sacred book(s) of faith - Bible, Koran, Torah - whatever best reflects the membership present in the lodge room at the time. We are not a Christian organization, although there are appendant bodies within Masonry ( Knights Templar in the York Rite ) that require Trinitarian Christian beliefs ). Compare Masonry, Lions, Kiwanis with any church, and you’re wasting your time !

1. realism in art or literature; specifically: a theory in literature emphasizing observation of life without idealization or the avoidance of the ugly. ( italics: mine)

Tell that to famous masons Cecil B. DeMille, Daryl Zanuck, Sir Aurthur Conan Doyle, Benjamin Franklin, James Audubon, Sir Walter Scott, Mark Twain, Robert Burns, Rudyard Kipling, etc.

Masons use the beautiful features of architecture in all of their degrees- Tuscan, Doric, Corinthian, Composite, etc.

Beauty and the joy of life are keystones to living - Brothers Mel Blanc, Danny Thomas, Roy Rogers, Tom Mix, Red Skelton, John Wayne, Ernest Borgnine, Will Rogers, Telly Savalas, Dave Thomas ( of Wendy’s) Michael Richards ( “Kramer” on Seinfeld), all exemplify this…

Ugly music ? ( Roman Catholic ) brothers Franz Haydn, Wolfgang Mozart. Others: Sibelius, John P. Sousa, Roy Clark, Mel Tillis, etc.

“Indiferrent” ? From the list above, I’d say that Masons are quite actively engaged in the fullness of God’s creation and creativity.

The motto: " I am my brother’s keeper " is posted directly above the door in many lodgerooms. Relief, charity and brotherly love are the principle tenets of masonry. Didn’t Jesus teach this ? Again- I remind you that Freemasonry is NOT the Christian Church - and doesn’t seek to compete with nor replace it.

http://www.ummah.net.pk/dajjal/eagle.gif

This elegant and ancient symbol is hardly evil or occult. It represents a Scottish Rite Council that met in Paris in 1758 - with jurisdictions in Europe’s East and West. This eagle is guarding against the Profane - from two directions.

The Prussian King, Frederick the Great ( a Roman Catholic ) is credited with authorship of the Rite’s “Constitutions” soon after, in 1786.

I say to-MAY-to- you say to-MAH-to - evil yard bird- or whatever you wish - that’s what it actually means.

The banner of the 32nd Degree contains the phrase: " Spes Meo in Deo Est " ( My hope is in God )

The 33rd Degree’s banner which you see above includes the phrase: " Deus Memque Jus" ( God - and my right ). Masons generically refer to God as “The Supreme Architect of the Universe” - I find that refreshing - especially after seeing another thread in this Forum referring to “Jesus is my Homeboy” !

Masons revere God and humbly bow before Him. The Worshipful Master in a lodge is exactly that - “full of worship” ! He ALWAYS removes his hat when mentioning God as a symbol of respect. In the York Rite Royal Arch degrees, an arch is placed in the uppermost part of the lodge room - on it are the words pronounced by the Hebrew priests: " Holiness to the Lord".

ALL SMOKE SCREENS,You cannot serve two masters,you will love one and hate the other. Which MASTER are you serving?

 

[St.James]

jamesclaude:

This elegant and ancient symbol is hardly evil or occult. It represents a Scottish Rite Council that met in Paris in 1758 - with jurisdictions in Europe’s East and West. This eagle is guarding against the Profane - from two directions.

I say to-MAY-to- you say to-MAH-to - evil yard bird- or whatever you wish - that’s what it actually means.

Sure, that is one of it’s meanings–the meaning that is meant for the profane; the non-adepts. This meaning doesn’t interest me.

The real meaning of that symbol, to the adept, is as I’ve stated. It is a reference to Janus. The double mind.

It’s what you yourself continually promote here.

You attempt to attract Catholics into an organization, Freemasonry, which teaches a philosophy that is condemned by the Catholic church.

The Catholic church has always condemned Freemasony because it cannot be reconciled with the tenets of Catholic faith. The Church teaches that we must be of one mind–the mind of Christ. As Catholics, we cannot simultaneously subscribe to two conflicting philosophies.

That may be ok for Freemasons, but it is not possible for Catholics.

 

[jamesclaude]

SPOKENWORD:

ALL SMOKE SCREENS,You cannot serve two masters,you will love one and hate the other. Which MASTER are you serving?

If I were to join Daughters of the American Revolution, would I be doing so at the peril of my soul ?

Same difference.

Medieval gobbledygook.

 

[St.James]

jamesclaude:

If I were to join Daughters of the American Revolution, would I be doing so at the peril of my soul ?

Same difference.

No, It’s not.

The are no papal encyclicals condemning the Daughters of the American Revolution. There is no parallel to be drawn here.

The church condemns Freemasonry because it is irreconcilable with the Catholic faith.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

jamesclaude:

If I were to join Daughters of the American Revolution, would I be doing so at the peril of my soul ?

Same difference.

Medieval gobbledygook.

Only if the Daughters were serving the same architect as you do. There is only one true God ,not many gods. Just like your symbol reflects two heads, there only can be one. You can only serve one master and his name is not Lucifer.

 

[jamesclaude]

St. James:

Sure, that is one of it’s meanings–the meaning that is meant for the profane; the non-adepts. This meaning doesn’t interest me.

Why should it interest you ? Your purpose is to defame Masonry.

The real meaning of that symbol, to the adept, is as I’ve stated. It is a reference to Janus. The double mind.

It’s what you yourself continually promote here.

All that I attempt to do in here is stand up to your constant diatribes against Masonry and your fondness for giving your own “interpretations” instead of the truth- so predictable, that it’s a dog-and-pony show *of the very worst sort. *

It happened in the “National Treasure” and “oddfellows” threads - this is merely “same song, third verse”.

You attempt to attract Catholics into an organization, Freemasonry, which teaches a philosophy that is condemned by the Catholic church.

Always blaming me for “recruitment” instead of merely stating the truth. Tsk tsk !

Your biggest fear is that someone might leave the church and join the lodge - how ridiculous and patronizing is that ?

The Catholic church has always condemned Freemasony because it cannot be reconciled with the tenets of Catholic faith. The Church teaches that we must be of one mind–the mind of Christ. As Catholics, we cannot simultaneously subscribe to two conflicting philosophies.

That may be ok for Freemasons, but it is not possible for Catholics.

Maybe for some Catholics. Do you speak for ALL Catholics ? I’d be interested in hearing from more level heads on this topic.

Demagogue: one who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims, especially for political advantage. A rabble-rouser… -Webster

The Inquisition should give it a rest and let some others post their questions and observations…

_

 

[SPOKENWORD]

jamesclaude:

Why should it interest you ? Your purpose is to defame Masonry. Hi JC,Its interesting that you have a bible on the head table but no one believes what it says. Does any one ever read any New Testament verses from it or is it just another piece of furniture?

 

[jamesclaude]

SPOKENWORD:

Only if the Daughters were serving the same architect as you do. There is only one true God ,not many gods. Just like your symbol reflects two heads, there only can be one. You can only serve one master and his name is not Lucifer.

Um, ok - whatever, Spoken.

For the record, Spokenword is NOT Roman Catholic.

I was hoping for more mainstream commentary - not “a devil behind every tree” ( but MAYBE deviled eggs ! Yum ! )

 

[St.James]

St. James:

The Catholic church has always condemned Freemasony because it cannot be reconciled with the tenets of Catholic faith. The Church teaches that we must be of one mind–the mind of Christ. As Catholics, we cannot simultaneously subscribe to two conflicting philosophies.

That may be ok for Freemasons, but it is not possible for Catholics.

jamesclaude:

Maybe for some Catholics. Do you speak for ALL Catholics ? I’d be interested in hearing from more level heads on this topic.

You clearly misunderstand the church magesterium. I do not speak for the Catholic church, but the Catholic church has spoken on the matter of Freemasonry. The church has condemned it. I merely relay the church position on this matter.

Obfuscate all you like. This point is non-negotiable, not because I say so, but because the church says so.

 

[jamesclaude]

St. James:

You clearly misunderstand the church magesterium. I do not speak for the Catholic church, but the Catholic church has spoken on the matter of Freemasonry. The church has condemned it. I merely relay the church position on this matter.

Obfuscate all you like. This point is non-negotiable, not because I say so, but because the church says so.

Obfuscate -* transitive verb* - to make obscure, to confuse…

Is THAT what I’ve been doing ? Hmmm…

I understand your tidy “relay” for the Church very well - it may be the pivotal difference between many Catholics and those who would think for themselves.

Yes, I think I’m beginning to get the picture… Thanks, St. James - you’re sometimes helpful at times, despite your very open agenda regarding the spectre of mischievous freemasonry.

F.Y.I. - besides defending masonry against knuckleheaded misrepresentations, I HAVE studied various threads / weblinks regarding the Magisterium of the Church, and think that I’ve grasped the basics.

I don’t agree with it, but it’s a interesting ( and handy ) development in the ongoing evolution of the catholic church.

.

 

[St.James]

jamesclaude:

I understand your tidy “relay” for the Church very well - it may be the pivotal difference between many Catholics and those who would think for themselves.

It seems that you still misunderstand. It is not for Catholics to choose for themselves whether Freemasonry is acceptable or not. The church has spoken on this matter. Your appeal to Catholics who “think for themselves” in this context rings hollow.

This is not to say that Catholics have no free will. Catholics may choose to engage in Freemasonic practice by abusing their free will, but they would be in a state of sin for doing so.

As a Freemason, this is probably of no consequence to you. I must assume so given that you still seek to attract Catholics away from their faith and into Masonry, in effect, into a state of sin.

 

[jamesclaude]

St. James:

It seems that you still misunderstand. It is not for Catholics to choose for themselves whether Freemasonry is acceptable or not. The church has spoken on this matter. Your appeal to Catholics who “think for themselves” in this context rings hollow.

This is not to say that Catholics have no free will. Catholics may choose to engage in Freemasonic practice by abusing their free will, but they would be in a state of sin for doing so.

As a Freemason, this is probably of no consequence to you. I must assume so given that you still seek to attract Catholics away from their faith and into Masonry, in effect, into a state of sin.

I would never go so far as to assume anything.

Hey - I’m just impressed that you capitalized the “F” in “freemasonry”.

The posse has arrived, smacked heathen mason on the noggin - Now let’s hear from everybody else, umkay ?

Lots more fun that way, I’m sure…

.

 

[Mfaustina1]

Hello all.

I was raised with an anti-Masonic bias because I came from a “fundamentalist Christian” background. I was surprised to learn that the Catholic Church *also * had such a bias.

But if Freemasonry is not a secret society, then why mention the inner secrets in post # 26?

I have overcome many of my previous biases due to diligence and research, but this topic remains a hurdle for me. I have noticed that wherever a Mason is involved in Church dealings, it tends to be for the bad rather than the good.

Anyone read the book “Goodbye, Good Men” by Michael Rose?

Sorry if I step on some toes, but they do heal. My husband’s soul is at stake as well as mine. -Mfaustina1

 

[SPOKENWORD]

jamesclaude:

Um, ok - whatever, Spoken.

For the record, Spokenword is NOT Roman Catholic.

I was hoping for more mainstream commentary - not “a devil behind every tree” ( but MAYBE deviled eggs ! Yum ! )

Hi Jamesclaude, I just want you understand one thing .I am not attacking you but only the SPIRIT behind you which you cannot see. I come to you with the spirit of truth which is Jesus Christ. He alone is the Way,Truth, and the Life . There is no other. Why are you searching else where? Remember SATAN : is a LIAR ,a DECIEVIER, and a THIEF. Which do you want to follow? Jesus or Satan. You have got to choose. You cannot serve both. Jesus has come to set you FREE from this bondage. Do you want to be set FREE James? Its your SOUL that is at stake. Remember death is for eternity. Choose wisely.Its up to you. We are all coming before God for judgement. You are now accountable for you have heard Gods voice speaking through me. God Bless you James

 

[flameburns623]

jamesclaude:

I would never go so far as to assume anything.

Hey - I’m just impressed that you capitalized the “F” in “freemasonry”.

The posse has arrived, smacked heathen mason on the noggin - Now let’s hear from everybody else, umkay ?

Lots more fun that way, I’m sure…

.

Hi Jamesclaude!

Nice work on your posts RE: Freemasonry. It DOES appear that the Lodge is officially ‘off-limits’ for faithful Roman Catholics (if you’re like me you know one or several devout practicing Roman Catholics who are simulataneously Freemasons and say they’ve been told it’s ‘okay’ to belong. I leave those issues up to brother Masons to work out with their own consciences and with their Church). Masons don’t deliberately recruit to begin with, and if they did, it would be bad form to recruit among people who ought to be bound in conscience NOT to affilliate. The best one can hope for on this forum is to plead for some good will and some measure of care with the facts about Freemasonry.

Most of the people willing to actually dialogue on this topic–willing to bother to actually LEARN anything about Freemasonry–don’t follow threads like this very long. Too many of the people who initiate or participate in such threads from the anti-Masonic side are pretty much invulnerable to reason or evidence. Mostly they’re here to bait Freemasons because they like to dabble in conspiracy theories. And it’s incredibly hard to disprove (or prove) a negative assertion–how can you truly establish that Freemasonry is NOT a diablolical, Satan-worshipping cult? After all, you may simply be a dupe who hasn’t been let in on the secret. OR you may be a ‘true initiate’ out to suck in other dupes. Of course–Jack Chick alleges the same sorts of things about the Papacy in general, the Jesuit order in particular. Conspiracy theories abound. They are devlishly difficult to refute.

It harms nothing to post responses to the anti-Masons, so that reasonable people don’t assume the worst about the Lodge by simple default. Just don’t expect to change many minds or even to engage in a real dialogue with committed anti-Masons. Heck they’ve made it clear they have no intention of dealing with Freemasonry on it’s own terms. Not even when I mentioned earlier that I could conceive of a committed Christian acknowledging the facts about Freemasonry as it perceives itself and still arriving at the conclusion that Freemasonry would be an inappropriate organization for Christians to join. And as soon as you tire of the game and drop out, the ‘other side’ will mark this as a ‘victory’, as you noticed occurred when you were offline briefly. Best to hope for is that some of the ‘lurkers’ who never bother to post will go and check out some of the sources such as I cited to see what Freemasons say for themselves.

 

[jamesclaude]

flameburns623:

Hi Jamesclaude!

Nice work on your posts RE: Freemasonry. It DOES appear that the Lodge is officially ‘off-limits’ for faithful Roman Catholics (if you’re like me you know one or several devout practicing Roman Catholics who are simulataneously Freemasons and say they’ve been told it’s ‘okay’ to belong. I leave those issues up to brother Masons to work out with their own consciences and with their Church). Masons don’t deliberately recruit to begin with, and if they did, it would be bad form to recruit among people who ought to be bound in conscience NOT to affilliate. The best one can hope for on this forum is to plead for some good will and some measure of care with the facts about Freemasonry.

Most of the people willing to actually dialogue on this topic–willing to bother to actually LEARN anything about Freemasonry–don’t follow threads like this very long. Too many of the people who initiate or participate in such threads from the anti-Masonic side are pretty much invulnerable to reason or evidence. Mostly they’re here to bait Freemasons because they like to dabble in conspiracy theories. And it’s incredibly hard to disprove (or prove) a negative assertion–how can you truly establish that Freemasonry is NOT a diablolical, Satan-worshipping cult? After all, you may simply be a dupe who hasn’t been let in on the secret. OR you may be a ‘true initiate’ out to suck in other dupes. Of course–Jack Chick alleges the same sorts of things about the Papacy in general, the Jesuit order in particular. Conspiracy theories abound. They are devlishly difficult to refute.

It harms nothing to post responses to the anti-Masons, so that reasonable people don’t assume the worst about the Lodge by simple default. Just don’t expect to change many minds or even to engage in a real dialogue with committed anti-Masons. Heck they’ve made it clear they have no intention of dealing with Freemasonry on it’s own terms. Not even when I mentioned earlier that I could conceive of a committed Christian acknowledging the facts about Freemasonry as it perceives itself and still arriving at the conclusion that Freemasonry would be an inappropriate organization for Christians to join. And as soon as you tire of the game and drop out, the ‘other side’ will mark this as a ‘victory’, as you noticed occurred when you were offline briefly. Best to hope for is that some of the ‘lurkers’ who never bother to post will go and check out some of the sources such as I cited to see what Freemasons say for themselves.

Dear Flameburns:

Thanks for a civil and gentlemanly note.

When I registered back in November, I had NO idea that there were still such hard feelings against the Masons - it was the last thing on my mind ! The subject of Catholicism NEVER comes up in blue lodge, Scottish or York Rite meetings whatsoever.

What I ran into on here is like a vacation tourist on a deserted Pacific island - encountering a stranded Japanese World War II soldier who doesn’t know that the war’s over yet. Utterly befuddling !

I think that concerns such as Mfaustina1’s post # 94 are honest and truly “on the level” - she’s not playing ‘Church hired gun’, and has genuine concerns about Masonry - without the pre-set agenda.

But you’re right - it’s tiresome to be bullied and know that you’re in an unwinnable situation. It was what the British refer to in theater as a “set piece” - no exchange of ideas, but rather a battleground. I won’t make that mistake again !

Despite Spokenword’s concern, I long ago visited with a very committed Southern Baptist pastor who does many of our Masonic graveside burials - he’s in his late 70’s, and is a 33rd degree S.R. mason. We discussed that we both have unshakeable faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour, and would’ve bolted at ANY time if masonry had demanded that we alter our individual
faith.

They make it out as if we were some kind of voodoo zombies - incapable of reason. That’s utter nonsense and hogwash.

Every organization evolves- whether it be church or fraternal organization. Never do you hear contemporary Masonic writers quoted by anti-masons - just good 'ol Albert Pike. Why not ? Because the buffet of outmoded ideas doesn’t exist - there’s no modern buffet to pick and choose from anymore. Dig up a Confederate general and the pickin’s are easy ! Never do I hear current authors James Tresner or Pierre Normand quoted ? Pitiful, yet true…

Some folks are obviously not able to deal with the fact that we are men of ALL faiths - they cannot (or will not) grasp it. The most beautiful aspect of masonry - brotherly love - is the part they can’t handle! Maybe that’s why there’s so much discord in the world at large - sectarian hatred and determined ignorance.

I’ll jump in occasionally from now on, but not with those who’re trying to fight about it…

Blessings to you and yours for 2005,

• Jamesclaude

.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

flameburns623:

Hi Jamesclaude!

Nice work on your posts RE: Freemasonry. It DOES appear that the Lodge is officially ‘off-limits’ for faithful Roman Catholics (if you’re like me you know one or several devout practicing Roman Catholics who are simulataneously Freemasons and say they’ve been told it’s ‘okay’ to belong. I leave those issues up to brother Masons to work out with their own consciences and with their Church). Masons don’t deliberately recruit to begin with, and if they did, it would be bad form to recruit among people who ought to be bound in conscience NOT to affilliate. The best one can hope for on this forum is to plead for some good will and some measure of care with the facts about Freemasonry.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hi Flames, That flame is still burning inside of you. You wont let go will You? Freemasonry is OFF limits for ALL Christians. This is not a conscience issue as you proclaim. It is Gods command to leave this Anti Christian organization. You cannot serve TWO MASTERS. Like I said to James you also are responsable for yourself for you also have been told and now are accountable before God.Flames you need to get on your knees before God and seek His Face on this issue. Let Him speak to your heart for you do not believe anything I say. God Bless

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Hi James, Like you that southern baptist pastor has been decieved and was not very committed to Christ.You have to stop coming up with reasons to stay in. Very simple you need to get out and renounce your affilation with masons. Like I said you cannot serve two masters.You will love one and hate the other.If both of you continue on you will join flamesburn in your southern quest.