Freemasonry

[Stephen-Maguire]

jamesclaude:

Every Catholic should be aware of the Church’s ban on Masonic membership -** I’ve never disagreed with that**. It is Roman Catholic Church law.

*Thanks for the clarification *

All that I’m suggesting ( Heaven forbid ! ) is that the Church and Freemasonry agree to disagree -** without** the animosity and mutual suspicions of the past.

Civil and peaceful co-existence -

Is that too much to ask ?

Both Church and Fraternity have been around for centuries - and will doubtless co-exist for many more…

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Good & evil do co-exist, but one day only one of the two will be victorious, whatever side of the fence you want to be on is up to you.
When it comes to the time of seperating the sheep from the goats, do you want to be with the sheep or the goats ?

 

[GoodKnight1443]

The pace was set by folks like StJames, HagiaSophia and Cestusdei to ridicule whatever I posted - usually employing malicious arguments and a warped historical context. It was not a good faith exchange of ideas, and ultimately tiresome. And I have yet to be properly “called on the carpet” for “shenanigans” by that goon squad -* or anyone. * I seriously doubt that I am your “friend”. Your malignant comments are an insult and a cheap shot at best. They showcase the mindset of the more hidebound on here - hopefully not that of the majority of all Roman Catholics. Jamesclaude

Okay, lets review james’ masonic misinformation techniques here gang…

Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach.

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Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic.

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Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can’t do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent.

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**It is ALWAYS OUR FAULT! A Darn Catholic conspiracy is what we are! We “*hidebound” *Catholics stick to the church doctirine which does not change to make the non-Catholic world happy. How dare the Church be so firm in its resolve and shame on us for suporting our Church’s teachings. **

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[Kevin_Walker]

I feel that Freemasonry in the US is quaint and has become just another social club like the Elks or Rotary clubs. In Europe, particularly England the Free Masons are still a viable entity since an Irishman here in Boston told me that you cannot make Inspector on the London police force unless you are a Mason.

What I feel has replaced Freemasonry here in the United States as a powerful behind-the-scenes organization with their own agenda to join is the Bar Association.

That is the undermining entity which Americans need to watch very closely!

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Kevin Walker:

I feel that Freemasonry in the US is redundant and has become just another social club like the Elks or Rotary clubs. In Europe, particularly England the Free Masons are still a viable entity since an Irishman here in Boston told me that you cannot make Inspector on the London police force unless you are a Mason.

What I feel has replaced Freemasonry here in the United States as a powerful behind-the-scenes organization with their own agenda is the Bar Association.

The Bar Association is the undermining entity which Americans need to watch very closely!

 

[HagiaSophia]

Kevin Walker:

I feel that Freemasonry in the US is quaint and has become just another social club like the Elks or Rotary clubs. In Europe, particularly England the Free Masons are still a viable entity since an Irishman here in Boston told me that you cannot make Inspector on the London police force unless you are a Mason.

The carrying on of it in the UK caused so many complaints about the police force that I believe now Masons have to be wearing some way of identifying their affiliation so that others know. It made major headlines awhile back.
Kevin Walker:

What I feel has replaced Freemasonry here in the United States as a powerful behind-the-scenes organization with their own agenda to join is the Bar Association.

That is the undermining entity which Americans need to watch very closely!

I have heard the same thing.

 

[HagiaSophia]

GoodKnight1443:

**It is ALWAYS OUR FAULT! A Darn Catholic conspiracy is what we are! We “*hidebound” ***Catholics stick to the church doctirine which does not change to make the non-Catholic world happy. How dare the Church be so firm in its resolve and shame on us for suporting our Church’s teachings.

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It’s been obvious for some time now; when this poster first started in about Masonry various documents, and posters informed him that Catholics are forbidden to join or hold membership and gave him basic information to that effect.

I believe it was also pointed out that in order to fully comprehend why the Church feels as she does, you have to do your reading of the history of it.

The OP has persisted in trying to demean those who follow the Church’s’rule and frankly I failed to ever figure out why anyone much kept paying any attention.

He knows he’s on a Catholic board, the church’s position has been made clear, references offered and so I just don’t get the “agenda” here. Obviously he has some kind of personal need to keep up the drumbeat.

If I joined a forum and wanted to know how how the church membership felt and why, one my question was answered that we can’t affiliate with you and here is why- I think I’d take myself to somewhere else.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Kevin Walker:

I feel that Freemasonry in the US is quaint and has become just another social club like the Elks or Rotary clubs. In Europe, particularly England the Free Masons are still a viable entity since an Irishman here in Boston told me that you cannot make Inspector on the London police force unless you are a Mason.

The carrying on of it in the UK caused so many complaints about the police force that I believe now Masons have to be wearing some way of identifying their affiliation so that others know. It made major headlines awhile back.
Kevin Walker:

What I feel has replaced Freemasonry here in the United States as a powerful behind-the-scenes organization with their own agenda to join is the Bar Association.

That is the undermining entity which Americans need to watch very closely!

I have heard the same thing.

 

[jamesclaude]

HagiaSophia:

It’s been obvious for some time now; when this poster first started in about Masonry various documents, and posters informed him that Catholics are forbidden to join or hold membership and gave him basic information to that effect.

Good to see ya again, Hagia - figured you’d eventually show up in this thread - the posse’s not quite complete without ya !

I believe it was also pointed out that in order to fully comprehend why the Church feels as she does, you have to do your reading of the history of it.

The OP has persisted in trying to demean those who follow the Church’s’rule and frankly I failed to ever figure out why anyone much kept paying any attention.

**Not true! **I’ve repeatedly acknowledged that I’m neither here to recruit Catholics - nor deny that Catholics are prohibited from joining the Masonic Fraternity by their Church.

People “pay attention” to these posts because they are entertained by the interchange, and are quietly making up their own minds…

He knows he’s on a Catholic board, the church’s position has been made clear, references offered and so I just don’t get the “agenda” here. Obviously he has some kind of personal need to keep up the drumbeat.

My “agenda” is to present the truth - my only purpose: to stifle medieval wives’ tales, hearsay - and to confront those* militants who persist in spreading willful misinformation about Freemasonry.*

This Catholic board is for an exchange of ideas and dialogue - not to gloat ( the Saturday Night Live “Church Lady Dance” is expressly forbidden ! )

If I joined a forum and wanted to know how how the church membership felt and why, one my question was answered that we can’t affiliate with you and here is why- I think I’d take myself to somewhere else.

I’m not easily intimidated by militant Catholics who persist in their crusade of ignorance and purposeful defamation- “defending” the Church at all costs - hiding behind 100 or 200 year old decrees and hostilities.

**These detractors know better - but do it anyway. ** If something is said over and over again - without a truthful defense - *people will begin to believe it. *
Why do people object to the Masons ? The answer to that question varies. Some religious intolerants simply make stuff up - it’s sort of like: if it’s a book - it MUST be true !

An outstanding example of this from Catholic detractors is: Freemasonry: Mankind’s Hidden Enemy by Bro. Charles Madden, OFM. It packs more convoluted misinformation into less than 70 pages than do most anti-masonic books twice its size.

Christianity and American Freemasonry by William J. Whalen would be a prime example of a LARGER book- full of biased misinformation. **It’s no secret that inflammatory and sensational titles $ell book$. **

It’s no surprise that these books contain no official Catholic Nihil Obstat ( no objection ) - “imprimatur” ( official Church endorsement of a printed document or publication by a bishop or archbishop) - simply because they will not endorse them. Otherwise, they WOULD contain a bishop’s imprimatur- *** if** the authors could obtain one ! *

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Religious detractors continue to fan the flames of mistrust and righteous anger - mistakenly thinking that they’re “defending the Faith” or being “good Catholics” - for carrying on the “tradition” of Mason-hating.

A look at these “True Catholics” pumping out printed anti-masonic books:

[www.masonicinfo.com/books/enemy.htm](Freemasonry: Mankind's Hidden Enemy - Book Review)

IS Freemasonry promoting anti-Catholicism ? See for yourself:

[www.masonicinfo.com/anticatholic.htm](Spurious Charges: Freemasonry is Anti-Catholic)

All of this bitter energy could be better channeled toward more charitable and productive goals - such as free children’s orthopaedic and burn hospitals - and dyslexic learning centers.

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[HagiaSophia]

jamesclaude:

It’s no surprise that these books contain no official Catholic Nihil Obstat ( no objection ) - “imprimatur” ( official Church endorsement of a printed document or publication by a bishop or archbishop) - simply because they will not endorse them. Otherwise, they WOULD contain a bishop’s imprimatur- *** if*** the authors could obtain one !

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Then you need to catch up a little: elsewhere you stated that Achbp Bugninin was demoted: - not true. transferred from curial offices and sent out as nuncio - not demoted.

Nil obstats and imprimaturs haven’t been used since Vatican II pretty much for anything but scriptural exegesis or catechism works. Not required.

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Religious detractors continue to fan the flames of mistrust and righteous anger - mistakenly thinking that they’re “defending the Faith” or being “good Catholics” - for carrying on the “tradition” of Mason-hating.

Regardless of anyone’s opinion here, your quarrel is with the teaching magesterium of Rome - it is their decree, most knowledgeble Catholics understand and agree with it and so you can preach, and offer us Mason apologetics, it doesn’t and will not change anything . It is not within the purview of Catholics locally to change that decree so tell it to Rome. No one hates Masons - we can’t join them, they are outside the pale for Catholics. So are polytheists, we don’t hate them either.

jamesclaude:

All of this bitter energy could be better channeled toward more charitable and productive goals - such as free children’s orthopaedic and burn hospitals - and dyslexic learning centers.

I haven’t picked up on the bitterness from Catholics - simply statements of facts held by their Church and by them. Both your organization and ours involve themselves with charities and seem to doing just fine in that regard.

 

[jamesclaude]

HagiaSophia:

Then you need to catch up a little: elsewhere you stated that Achbp Bugninin was demoted: - not true. transferred from curial offices and sent out as nuncio - not demoted.

Dear Hagia:

I think that I’m pretty much “caught up” - it’s always my goal keep fresh on current affairs.

A Catholic web site which promotes suspicion of the Masonic “cult” also discusses Archbishop Bugnini as being “canned” - twice.

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Anyone presiding over a Vatican Congregation - then summarily dismissed and exported to IRAN has DEFINITELY been “demoted” - no matter what his “rank” or the color of his robes…

SEE the Archbishop, then scroll down for the rest of the story:

[angelqueen.org/articles/04-02_bugnini.shtml](angelqueen.org)

Nil obstats and imprimaturs haven’t been used since Vatican II pretty much for anything but scriptural exegesis or catechism works. Not required.

I’m looking at a popular ( January 2, 2005 ) Catholic Sunday mass program provided to a local parish by “The Faith Connection”. Its NIHIL OBSTAT is provided by The Rev. Robert Coerver, Censor Librorum, the IMPRIMATUR is + the Most Reverend Charles V. Grahmann, Bishop of Dallas. This organization prints Sunday programs to be handed out at mass , and hosts a web site at:

[rclweb.com/html/productSamples/fcPages/fc.html](http://www.rclweb.com/html/productSamples/fcPages/fc.html)

I guess somebody feels the need to use them - and can.

Regardless of anyone’s opinion here, your quarrel is with the teaching magesterium of Rome - it is their decree, most knowledgeble Catholics understand and agree with it and so you can preach, and offer us Mason apologetics, it doesn’t and will not change anything …

I had no idea that I have any quarrel whatsoever - other than what appears to be lay catholics ( and a cantakerous older priest or two ) laying down some very blatant and untrue opinions, statements, hearsay and convolutions of what they either have heard or somehow believe Freemasonry to be.

I haven’t picked up on the bitterness from Catholics - simply statements of facts held by their Church .

Boy, I have.

Hard feelings are still running deep. Some seem to like it that way.

As far as the modern view of their Church, I can only refer to Cardinal Ratzinger’s Statement on Masonic Association as the latest Word. Please stick to THAT, and I will be satisfied.

It is disappointing that the Church’s “negative judgement” of Freemasonry still remains. WHAT on earth could be the true reason for it ?

The timing of this document ( November, 1983 ) follows closely upon the heels of the Church’s bank scandal ( Banco Ambrosiano May, 1981 ) and was no doubt responsible for re-instating the ban on Masonic membership by Roman Catholics.

A former Italian Masonic Lodge continued to operate as a business organization -* even after the Grand Orient of Italy **revoked **its charter in ***1976 - **stripping it of any Masonic affiliation or validity whatsoever.

Acting as a pseudo-lodge / renegade banking organization, it’s leaders stole** billions of lira **from the Vatican.

I cannot doubt that this scandal freshly re-opened old wounds - and was the primary cause of re-instating the ban upon Catholics from joining the Lodge. ( No one with a firm grip on reality can deny that the Vatican IS a political and very human organization ! ) It takes money to oversee the welfare of the Faithful !

[www.masonicinfo.com/p2_lodge.htm](P2 Lodge) explains the scandal that bankrupted Banco Ambrosiano and robbed the Vatican…

**Fiat Lux ! **

• James

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[HagiaSophia]

jamesclaude:

A Catholic web site which promotes suspicion of the Masonic “cult”

1. I know nothing about the “creators” of this website and frankly could care less what they claim to know. How they know it is something you may wish to take up with them.
2. Bugnini was a Monsignor when he inherited the Liturgy job and was promoted to Archbishop. He was an archbishop until lthe day he died. Leaving a curial position for a nunciature is not a demotion in the Church. It is a lateral move. In his case it was more than he deserved to some people, to others, well, they were glad to see such a bone of contention go. But dismissed or demoted he was not.

3)And in all candor, I would very much appreciate your not attempting to instruct me on how the church hierarchy works, or why. It is obvious you do not have a clue and have come to your own suppositions. You are welcome to them, but that will not make them correct in any event.

1. The program series which you mention describes itself as an " “adult formation resource”. To repeat once again, this would fall under catechesis material and would have the nil obstat and/or an imprimatur. It is as I explained to you before. Two categories of material continue to have this requirement.
2. Your statement of: “I had no idea that I have any quarrel whatsoever -” certainly had me fooled. Telling people that they are brainwashed, intimating that the Church they belong to and which has had a longer experience of masonry than you have years upon you, doesn’t know what it’s talking about strikes me as language indicating the person disagrees and wants to promote things other than what the church requires of its members.
3. Reference your statement: "As far as the modern view of their Church, I can only refer to Cardinal Ratzinger’s Statement on Masonic Association as the latest Word. Please stick to THAT, and I will be satisfied.

Frankly I doubt Rome or Ratzinger give one whit about whether you are satisfied or not. It is you who are here on a Catholic forum Board. We are not seeking out Masons to argue with them.

1. The Church did not lift a ban on Masonry and reinstitute it - Ratzinger as well as many other Catholic writers have made that clear. It was never lifted, it always remained, but for some reason some decided it had been, and he made his current statement based on constant complaints from people who wanted him to reiterate clearly the church position. He obliged.

 

[jamesclaude]

1) I know nothing about the “creators” of this website and frankly could care less what they claim to know. How they know it is something you may wish to take up with them.

1. Bugnini was a Monsignor when he inherited the Liturgy job and was promoted to Archbishop. He was an archbishop until lthe day he died. Leaving a curial position for a nunciature is not a demotion in the Church. It is a lateral move. In his case it was more than he deserved to some people, to others, well, they were glad to see such a bone of contention go. But dismissed or demoted he was not.

3)And in all candor, I would very much appreciate your not attempting to instruct me on how the church hierarchy works, or why. It is obvious you do not have a clue and have come to your own suppositions. You are welcome to them, but that will not make them correct in any event.

1. The program series which you mention describes itself as an " “adult formation resource”. To repeat once again, this would fall under catechesis material and would have the nil obstat and/or an imprimatur. It is as I explained to you before. Two categories of material continue to have this requirement.
2. Your statement of: “I had no idea that I have any quarrel whatsoever -” certainly had me fooled. Telling people that they are brainwashed, intimating that the Church they belong to and which has had a longer experience of masonry than you have years upon you, doesn’t know what it’s talking about strikes me as language indicating the person disagrees and wants to promote things other than what the church requires of its members.
3. Reference your statement: "As far as the modern view of their Church, I can only refer to Cardinal Ratzinger’s Statement on Masonic Association as the latest Word. Please stick to THAT, and I will be satisfied.

Frankly I doubt Rome or Ratzinger give one whit about whether you are satisfied or not. It is you who are here on a Catholic forum Board. We are not seeking out Masons to argue with them.

1. The Church did not lift a ban on Masonry and reinstitute it - Ratzinger as well as many other Catholic writers have made that clear. It was never lifted, it always remained, but for some reason some decided it had been, and he made his current statement based on constant complaints from people who wanted him to reiterate clearly the church position. He obliged.

Ker-BOOM ! A .12 gauge double barrel whammy !

A non-Catholic** dares** to discuss the hierarchy of YOUR Church ?

You don’t think Cardinal R cares about what I think ?

I "don’t have a clue ? " With two US Congressmen in my family, I think that I just might. You may think that understanding the Vatican is on a par with rocket science - I certainly do not.

Old men run Freemasonry - old men run the Church. I know, I know - how dare I compare the two- yadda yadda…

I find your arrogance appalling, as usual -* the brass knuckles were bound to emerge sooner or later. *

( Hagie always arrives at this level sooner or later - it’s happened in other threads - I had no reason to expect otherwise in this one. )

Umkay - when someone put the threadkiller lampshade on their head - or pees in the punch,*** it’s time to shut the party down*.**

…Time to hear from the others…

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[HagiaSophia]

** dares**

to discuss the hierarchy of YOUR Church ?

I don’t mind people discussing it, it’s the ones who think they can instruct Catholics on it and who don’t have a clue that I object to.

jamesclaude:

You don’t think Cardinal R cares about what I think ?

I suspect not.

jamesclaude:

With two US Congressmen in my family, I think that I just might. You may think that understanding the Vatican is on a par with rocket science - I certainly do not.

But then you’ve shown in your revious posts you don’t understand how the church works anyway - what your relatives have to do with the discussion is beyond me.

As for the rest of your post, as Archie used to say to Edith…

 

[jamesclaude]

HagiaSophia:

But then you’ve shown in your revious posts you don’t understand how the church works anyway - what your relatives have to do with the discussion is beyond me.

As for the rest of your post, as Archie used to say to Edith…

Am quite sure that I’m dealing with** Archie** when bantering with you, Hagie…

I guess that this means I’m “Meathead” ?

Love & Peace,

• James

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[GoodKnight1443]

Bless you HagiaSophia,

You are mutch more patient than I. I would have told him “stifle ya-self Edith” long ago.

This is my favorite:

Originally Posted by jamesclaude: I "don’t have a clue ? " With two US Congressmen in my family, I think that I just might. You may think that understanding the Vatican is on a par with rocket science - I certainly do not.

Non-sequitor Will Robinson! This does not compute! Being related to congressman faciliates one’s understanding of the Vatican???

James, James, James…My uncle is a Priest AND and rocket scientist! So he knows how the government works. Yeah, that’s the ticket!..

 

[jamesclaude]

GoodKnight1443:

Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can’t do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent.

Am I REALLY interacting with folks who look to Archie and Edith Bunker for their cultural inspiration and quote library ? That’s sorta frightening !

Dear Hagie and “GoodKnight” ( a GOOD knight has a trace of honor about what he does and says and prints ) :

Methinks you missed the forest for the trees…

I’ve lived in DC with my relatives - it’s not just a biological link. I’ve seen what goes on in the political fishbowl/circus which is our government. It’s interesting - but it ain’t pretty.

The Vatican is a political fishbowl.

Therefore, the Vatican is political.

Can there be any denying this ?

Whew ! :banghead:

Peace,

• James < < NOT overly fond of Emoticons, but the headbangin’ one seems to work really well for me this evening -

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[GoodKnight1443]

HagiaSophia to James:

I don’t mind people discussing it, it’s the ones who think they can instruct Catholics on it and who don’t have a clue that I object to. But then you’ve shown in your previous posts you don’t understand how the church works anyway - what your relatives have to do with the discussion is beyond me.

Well, he’s all your’s HagiaSophia: I must reserve myself , in order to keep my oath as a Catholic Gentleman.

jamesclaude:

Dear Hagie and “GoodKnight” ( a GOOD knight has a trace of honor about what he does and says and prints ) :

 

[GoodKnight1443]

Hmm,

This thread seems to have died a quick death.

 

[flameburns623]

GoodKnight1443:

Hmm,

This thread seems to have died a quick death.

Not so quick: nearly 140 posts. We are at loggerheads however: the pro-Masonic posters have attempted to provide resources for those sincerely interested in knowing what Freemasonry says about itself. Certain anti-Masonic posters want to persist in the idea that supporters of Freemasonry are either dupes or Satanically-motivated, making dialogue impossible. And when one gets right down to the bottom nickel–Roman Catholics cannot legitimately become Freemasons to begin with, and the Masonic Lodge does not recruit anyone even if Catholics could join. Promoting a measure of understanding and rapport is fine, but at some point, playng ring-around-the-rosie with people who aren’t really listening anyhow, for the benefit of people who can’t actually be very interested in a fraternity they can never join, is rather a waste of time.

Besides, the Catholic Answers server still seems to be rather a sluggish thing these days. Add that to the frustrations of dial-up and who has time to wrangle over sophistries?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

GoodKnight1443:

Hmm,

This thread seems to have died a quick death.

Your name has the fitting end.Maybe our Masons friends have seen the true lite and have come out of darkness. GoodKnight