Freemasonry

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GoodKnight1443:
Hmm,

This thread seems to have died a quick death.
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It’s not fun when folks post endless essays about how the Church* used to be - wishing to sketch St. Paul’s in ruins, etc…*

Most of the time I post in here, it’s about like talking to a brick with “Opus Dei” painted upon it.

Pointless and a waste of time…

If I stay off for over a week, Goodknight1443 declares “victory” over the Enemy Freemason.

Everyone seems to have the resources they’ve chosen to believe - mostly hung up on late 19th Century quotes and rhetoric -** not willing** to let go of the hate and mistrust - totally stuck in the mire of the past.

Yes, I know - poor me: " *why feel all persecuted if you’re in a Catholic forum" *- yadda yadda…

I had no idea that this forum would be full of Catholics yearning for the bad old days !

It reminds me of an Episcopalian joke: How many Episcopalians does it take to change a light bulb ?

Answer: THREE - one to make cocktails, one to change the light bulb, and one to say " I liked the OLD one better ! "

Fiat Lux,

James

.
 
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jamesclaude:
It’s not fun when folks post endless essays about how the Church* used to be - wishing to sketch St. Paul’s in ruins, etc…*

Most of the time I post in here, it’s about like talking to a brick with “Opus Dei” painted upon it.

Pointless and a waste of time…

If I stay off for over a week, Goodknight1443 declares “victory” over the Enemy Freemason.

Everyone seems to have the resources they’ve chosen to believe - mostly hung up on late 19th Century quotes and rhetoric -** not willing** to let go of the hate and mistrust - totally stuck in the mire of the past.

Yes, I know - poor me: " *why feel all persecuted if you’re in a Catholic forum" *- yadda yadda…

I had no idea that this forum would be full of Catholics yearning for the bad old days !

It reminds me of an Episcopalian joke: How many Episcopalians does it take to change a light bulb ?

Answer: THREE - one to make cocktails, one to change the light bulb, and one to say " I liked the OLD one better ! "

Fiat Lux,

James

.
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Hi James,And I thought you were beginning to see the light. All we need is one Mason,you to turn the light bulb so that you can come out of darkness. 😃 Can,t serve to Masters .When are you going to see the light? :confused:
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Hi James,And I thought you were beginning to see the light. All we need is one Mason,you to turn the light bulb so that you can come out of darkness. 😃 Can,t serve to Masters .When are you going to see the light? :confused:
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Spoken:

I saw More Light tonight as we made a new Mason.

Most of the “ex-Masons” I know of who’ve “seen the light” are more inspired to see dollar $ign$. **They end up making lots of money “exposing” freemasonry, touring churches that are driven by fear instead of love. **

Never will I belong to any church or organization that is spurred by fear and chased by a red-tailed devil.

Peace,
  • James
.
 
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jamesclaude:
Spoken:

I saw More Light tonight as we made a new Mason.

Most of the “ex-Masons” I know of who’ve “seen the light” are more inspired to see dollar $ign$. **They end up making lots of money “exposing” freemasonry, touring churches that are driven by fear instead of love. **

Never will I belong to any church or organization that is spurred by fear and chased by a red-tailed devil.

Peace,
  • James
.
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James,you are either for us our against us. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot serve two Masters. :eek: First of all James fear is not from the Lord. You are in blindness when you cannot see your own fear amongst your own members.Who do you think you are kidding? That little red devil doesnt have to chase masons for he has them already in his camp. Come out James again I plead in Jesus name. I love you brother and its my job as a christian when one of our brothers is in the wrong to help him see the light. God Bless
 
Code: 
   **Declaration on Masonic Associations (Quaesitum est)**
   
   English Translation of a Latin Document from the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of        the Faith November 26, 1983
   
   It has been asked whether there has been any change in the Church's decision in regard to        Masonic associations since the new Code of Canon Law does not mention them expressly,        unlike the previous code.
   
   This sacred congregation is in a position to reply that this circumstance is due to an        editorial criterion which was followed also in the case of other associations likewise        unmentioned inasmuch as they are contained in wider categories.
** Therefore, the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic associations remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable
with the doctrine of the Church and, therefore, membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful, who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave
sin and may not receive Holy Communion.**
Code: 
   It is not within the competence of local ecclesiastical authorities to give a judgment on        the nature of Masonic associations which would imply a derogation from what 
   has been decided above, and this in line with the declaration of this sacred congregation        issued Feb. 17,1981. [1]
   
   In an audience granted to the undersigned cardinal prefect, the Supreme Pontiff John Paul        II approved and ordered the publication of this declaration which had 
   been decided in an ordinary meeting of this sacred congregation.
   
   Rome, from the Office of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Nov. 26,        1983
** Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect**
Code: 
      Father Jerome Hamer, O.P. Titular Archbishop of Lorium, Secretary

    1. Cf. AAS 73 (1981) pp. 240-241.
 
Hey, James. This dialog bet u and Haige is nice, but this is getting really tedious. There are better places on the web to rationalize (or evangelize) Freemasonry.

cheers.
 
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jamesclaude:
It’s not fun when folks post endless essays about how the Church* used to be - wishing to sketch St. Paul’s in ruins, etc… Most of the time I post in here, it’s about like talking to a brick with “Opus Dei” painted upon it. Pointless and a waste of time… If I stay off for over a week, Goodknight1443 declares “victory” over the Enemy Freemason. Everyone seems to have the resources they’ve chosen to believe - mostly hung up on late 19th Century quotes and rhetoric -* not willing** to let go of the hate and mistrust - totally stuck in the mire of the past.

Yes, I know - poor me: " *why feel all persecuted if you’re in a Catholic forum" *- yadda yadda… I had no idea that this forum would be full of Catholics yearning for the bad old days !
It reminds me of an Episcopalian joke: How many Episcopalians does it take to change a light bulb ?
Answer: THREE - one to make cocktails, one to change the light bulb, and one to say " I liked the OLD one better ! "
Fiat Lux,
James.
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Holy non-sequitor Batman! Painted Bricks? People hung up on resources from the 1800’s? OOPS! I forgot the tactics at work here…

***Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. ***
***Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. ***
***Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme.
***Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can’t do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent.
I almost forgot how good james really is at these tactics.
 
If Catholic Church is so opposed to Freemasonry, why are Novus Ordo churches beginning to look almost identicle to Masonic Temple interiors?
 
Like most drivers, I can not resist looking at an accident while passing through, especially one with pieces all scattered over the road side. Now who hit whom ???

It looks like there’s been quite a war already, and things have degenerated into name calling and accusations. Some of it justified I’m sure. After scanning through a bunch of the post, trying to ignore most of the flame mail, I still haven’t quite figured out what free masonry is.

What I’ve heard is that it is a secret organization with secret rituals and Catholics are not allowed to join. I have no problem with the latter as I am already a KC member and that is one great organization, not banned and certainly not secret at least we try not to be. We could be better marketed so many more Catholics can join but that is another topic.

Out of morbid curiousity, what exactly is FM and what does it stand for ??? Let’s hear from the FM folks mainly as it would be a bit unfair to have outsiders make claims that may or may not be true. We see this all the time from our funDUHmentalist friends.

They are notorius for telling us what we believe and what we don’t believe. I think it’s patently absurd, and I get a big kick out of the off the wall stuff that they come up with. According to them, we’re devil worshipers and according to us, FM are devil worshipers. So in the spirit of “do unto others…” All you FMers out there, what are you for and what are you against ??? … or is that all secret also ?

Of course I recognize the FM themselves may be duped or ignorant of what really goes on, because IF it really is a very secret organization, only the folks who have been through ALL of the stages would really know what’s happening.

The problem I see with a totally secret is that by its very nature, no one really knows what’s going on. So it can’t have any checks and balances, and therefore how can anyone figure out where the truth lies.

You may be a 99th degree whatever but IF level 100 is run by the devil and conceals this from everyone else, how would level 99 through 1 know who runniing the show or even what the show is really all about ???

And just as an example, as some FMs would compare themselves to Church hierarchy, IF the Pope decided to something insane, like he was God incarnate, the rest of the Church would know right away that it was time for him to retire elsewhere.

I find it curious that you would use a less than flatering phase :
" I like your Christ - I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - M. Gandhi

as part of your signature. While I agree that not all Christians are Christ-like, I find that the vast majority are very Christ-like. You claim you’re Christian, why would you denigrate them in your signature ???

Wes
 
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wcknight:
[snip]
It looks like there’s been quite a war already, and things have degenerated into name calling and accusations. Some of it justified I’m sure. After scanning through a bunch of the post, trying to ignore most of the flame mail, I still haven’t quite figured out what free masonry is.
[s(name removed by moderator)]
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I hope you didn’t take my post about "indifferent secularists” as a flame. The Catholic Church as condemned indifferentism as a heresy and Freemasons freely admit that they do not require any member to believe in any particular revelation as ling as you believe in a Devine Deity (no atheists). For their point of view all religions are equal. To the Catholic church, this is anathema.

There is also a bad history between the Masons and the Catholic church. Most of the bad blood incidents are over a century old. The Masons believe in absolute freedom and they fell the Catholic church stifles free thinking by requiring members to adhere to a specific doctrine. To be a Catholic you are requested to give up your Pride and to freely accept the revelation of Jesus Christ as interpreted by his duly appointed representatives.

From the Mason point of view the religious wars and destruction have caused more harm than the good acts of particular religions. From the Catholic point of view, indifferent secularists which brought us the French Revolution and consequent Reign of Terror have not been any better. The Reign of Terror was the precursor of the wars between modern states.

For what I can see (and since it’s a secret organization I can’t see it all) the large majority of Masonic works are good and charitable. For that, I commend them. Since they contribute to the secularization and (I believe) general moral decline of our society, I believe, their organization has caused more harm than good.

See, I got through that without call them Satanists even once. 😉
 
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tennman1275:
If Catholic Church is so opposed to Freemasonry, why are Novus Ordo churches beginning to look almost identicle to Masonic Temple interiors?
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Lodges are square.

Most Catholic churches are cruciform.

The altar in the Lodge sits in the middle of the square and no one presides over it.

Altars in Catholic churches are at one end of the room, and a priest presides over it and performs sacraments.

In Lodges, the members sit on one side of the square, to the right of the entrance with the officers seated to their right along the adacent wall, (the ‘back’ wall, relative to the entrance to the Lodge); so that the majority of the attendees are arranged in a sort of inverted ‘L’ shape. There are seats for the Wardens of each of the points of the compass. Otherwise, most of the room is rather bare and vacant.

In Catholic churches, the congregants sit facing the priest and any concelebrants. The bulk of the room is occupied with pews, with assorted and sundry icons, devotional aids, and statues decorating the margins.

In Lodge, the ritual shapes the order of the meeting, but much of the meeting is an open dialogue between members about the business of the Lodge. Lodges lack a lectern or podium from which to address the attendees.

In Catholic churches, the liturgy is the only interaction which ordinarily is taking place between celebrant and congregant, and in fact the congregants are largely passive except to give various responses as appropriate. Catholic churches have not one but two lecterns, one for the readings and one for sermons (to distinguish them simply).

In Lodges, no sacraments are celebrated.

In Catholic churches, sacraments are celebrated, most notably communion.

The Master of the Lodge is a Mason equal to all other Masons in the Lodge and though due the respect of his office, serves only for a year at a time, after being duly elected of the membership.

Priests are called of God, appointed by their bishop or other proper authority, and serve for life in a special vocation which sets them apart from the ‘laity’.

In Lodge there is a Tyler, armed with a sword, outside the Lodge door to keep out any interlopers.

In most Catholic churches there are ushers who assist visitors to find a seat. Ordinarily, ushers are unarmed.

Yes . . . . .I see the resemblance. It is striking, indeed!:nope:
 
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Maranatha:
I hope you didn’t take my post about "indifferent secularists” as a flame. The Catholic Church as condemned indifferentism as a heresy and Freemasons freely admit that they do not require any member to believe in any particular revelation as ling as you believe in a Devine Deity (no atheists). For their point of view all religions are equal. To the Catholic church, this is anathema.

There is also a bad history between the Masons and the Catholic church. Most of the bad blood incidents are over a century old. …
…
From the Mason point of view the religious wars and destruction have caused more harm than the good acts of particular religions. From the Catholic point of view, indifferent secularists which brought us the French Revolution and consequent Reign of Terror have not been any better. The Reign of Terror was the precursor of the wars between modern states.

For what I can see (and since it’s a secret organization I can’t see it all) the large majority of Masonic works are good and charitable. For that, I commend them. Since they contribute to the secularization and (I believe) general moral decline of our society, I believe, their organization has caused more harm than good.

See, I got through that without call them Satanists even once. 😉
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Being civil is a start. No I didn’t mean any particular poster or any particular comment. The overall tone of the posts have been openly hostile.

As you say, there is enough bad history to go around for any group… That is also the arguments that you will hear from atheists and agnostics…not entirely unfounded, but a major caue for outsiders to stero type Catholics as land grabbing, greedy folks who hate Jew and Moslems.

this Divine Deity, sounds a lot like the New Age stuff…and the Wiccans and their ilk -modern day witches, not in the classic black magic devil worpshippers sense… some of the nicest folks you may meet (and in some cases some of the most bizzare), their beliefs are totally non-conventional, sort of primitive mother earth worship…Totally not organized, free thinking (if you want to call it that), not much doctrine if any, a few guidng principles, sort of like “Karma” whatever good or evil you do to someone will come back 3 fold. Do whatever makes you feel good without hurting others, that sort of thing.

It may be an impossible task to find out what FMs true philosophy is, especially because it is a secret organization. And who’s to say, maybe only the top couple of layers are the ones who know for sure what the real deal is. They could be hiding it from their own membership as well.
 
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wcknight:
Being civil is a start. No I didn’t mean any particular poster or any particular comment. The overall tone of the posts have been openly hostile.

As you say, there is enough bad history to go around for any group… That is also the arguments that you will hear from atheists and agnostics…not entirely unfounded, but a major caue for outsiders to stero type Catholics as land grabbing, greedy folks who hate Jew and Moslems.
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Thus far Freemasons would be able to get on well with you, wcknight.
this Divine Deity, sounds a lot like the New Age stuff…and the Wiccans and their ilk -modern day witches, not in the classic black magic devil worpshippers sense… some of the nicest folks you may meet (and in some cases some of the most bizzare), their beliefs are totally non-conventional, sort of primitive mother earth worship…Totally not organized, free thinking (if you want to call it that), not much doctrine if any, a few guidng principles, sort of like “Karma” whatever good or evil you do to someone will come back 3 fold. Do whatever makes you feel good without hurting others, that sort of thing.
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Freemasons don’t speak of a ‘divine deity’–what an oxymoron! Mostly the Masonic ritual refers to God as—God, using masculine pronouns and so forth. In one or two places within the ritual God is referred to as the Supreme Architect of the Universe or as the Great Architect of the Universe–the last being abbreviated GAOTU. This was not intended to be a special Masonic title for God but has been used as such by some Masonic writers and by a great many anti-Masonic writers.
It may be an impossible task to find out what FMs true philosophy is, especially because it is a secret organization. And who’s to say, maybe only the top couple of layers are the ones who know for sure what the real deal is. They could be hiding it from their own membership as well.
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Freemasonry is a fraternal organization. It’s teachings are not ‘secret’ but private. In point of fact, Masonic ‘secrets’ are publicly available, as I have noted repeatedly on this forum. I will say again–anyone who cared to put forth a bit of effort could memorize Duncans Ritual and Monitor and in all likelihood readily gain access to most Masonic lodges based upon what they could learn from that single source.

After all–most Masons memorize their catechism once, are examined once, and never again do much to reinforce the things they have memorized. If one knows the passwords and handshakes, most Tylers and most Wardens are themselves too lax in their own knowledge of the Ritual to be able to discern a ‘book Mason’ from someone actually raised to the degree of Master Mason. And one could supplement Duncan’s Ritual by getting ahold of a copy of the Standard Work for whatever state they choose to claim to have once belonged to–these get sold on E-Bay and in various used-book outlets even though they are supposed to be returned to the local Lodge. These are encoded, but the key to the code is readily known and easily broken (it’s a simple cipher requiring only patience and time to work out).

Obviously–this would be a dishonest way to gain a ‘peek’ into Masonic doings, but the point is that it CAN be done, has been done, and is likely to be done again.

Of course–one can always claim that there are people ‘somewhere out there’, holding ever-higher degrees which reveal the ‘true nature of Masonry’. But then–how do I REALLY know that Jesuits aren’t impregnating nuns in secret underground chambers and sacrificing the offspring to Lucifer? Or for that matter, how do any of us know that Princess Dianna, Elvis Presley, John F. Kennedy, and Adolph Hitler aren’t being held prisoner on some farflung invisible island by invaders from some other galaxy? After all, Art Bell can put guests on his show who might well propose just such an idea . . . .At some point, paranoia has to give way to common sense and reason.
 
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flameburns623:
Thus far Freemasons would be able to get on well with you, wcknight.

Freemasons don’t speak of a ‘divine deity’–what an oxymoron! Mostly the Masonic ritual refers to God as—God, using masculine pronouns and so forth. In one or two places within the ritual God is
Freemasonry is a fraternal organization. It’s teachings are not ‘secret’ but private. In point of fact, Masonic ‘secrets’ are publicly available, as I have noted repeatedly on this forum.

…Obviously–this would be a dishonest way to gain a ‘peek’ into Masonic doings, but the point is that it CAN be done, has been done, and is likely to be done again.

Of course–one can always claim that there are people ‘somewhere out there’, holding ever-higher degrees which reveal the ‘true nature of Masonry’. But then–how do I REALLY know that …

Jesuits …aren’t impregnating nuns in secret underground chambers and sacrificing the offspring to Lucifer? . . .At some point, paranoia has to give way to common sense and reason.
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Not sure where you’re coming from or what you’re imply by getting along well with FMs"

I have no opinion or pre-conceived notions of FMs… What I encounter here is the sum total of all I’ve heard about them.

Are you a free mason ?

Some so called Catholic folks may be involved in Satanic activity, but that is not anything taught or condoned by Catholics or the Church hierarchy. It’s rather scandalous of you to suggests such things in detail no less.

IF it’s common sense and reason you’re after, being a lot less explicit in allegations would go a long ways towards that goal.
wc
 
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wcknight:
Not sure where you’re coming from or what you’re imply by getting along well with FMs"
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I meant that the first several lines of your post, which I cited, would be things which Freemasons would agree with, unless I perhaps misread your intent.
I have no opinion or pre-conceived notions of FMs… What I encounter here is the sum total of all I’ve heard about them.
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There is quite a bit here by both Freemasons and anti-Masons of the paranoid fringe variety. Virtually nothing by Christians who have principled objections to joining the fraternity based upon what the Lodge really is. The middle ground is a wide open field so far as this topic is concerned. You can follow the various links that have been offered, as well as read the books I have recommended several times, to get some idea of the gist of the argument.
Are you a free mason ?
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I am so taken and accepted . . .though I should note that I demitted several years ago, due to difficulties paying the dues at the time.
Some so called Catholic folks may be involved in Satanic activity, but that is not anything taught or condoned by Catholics or the Church hierarchy. It’s rather scandalous of you to suggests such things in detail no less.

IF it’s common sense and reason you’re after, being a lot less explicit in allegations would go a long ways towards that goal.
wc
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Um—I think you missed my point, perhaps because you are blissfully unaware of just how ugly anti-Catholicism can be. This is to your credit by the way, but to help you understand: at least two and probably several contemporary writers (Jack Chick and Tony Alamo) have widely published complex conspiracy theories involving the Roman Catholic Church and the Society of Jesus.

They literally charge that Jesuits are involved at the highest levels in Satanic worship and that they actually do perform human sacrifice on infants conceived by nuns. They also claim the Jesuits secretly established the Islamic religion, started every war since at least the American Revolution and our Civil War, inspired the Holocaust against the Jews, established Communism in Russia and Naziism in Germany, and so forth. The charges, on their very face, are laughable, but this material is widely circulated and many Roman Catholics know of it, particularly folks who frequent Catholic apologetics sites. What I was suggesting is that the sort of people who weave complex conspiracy theories about Freemasonry are no less ridiculous than those who weave similar theories about Roman Catholics. I am not a Roman Catholic but I do not believe the fabrications of anti-Catholics; and I would suggest that persons who are constrained by their Church not to join the Masonic Lodge at least refrain from calumniating it.

Hope this clarifies some matters for you, wcknight.
 
I am a member of both the Knights of Columbus, and the Masonic Lodge. The Knights proclaim their allegience to the CHURCH and her bridegroom, JESUS CHRIST. The Masons have allegience to the “HIGHER BEING”. One organization is more inclusive then the other. Maybe at one time, there was suspicion and paranoia of one vs. the other, but what I see is two organizations, that are benevolent to the community. I would clearly denounce my membership in any organization that I felt was misleading, untrustworthy, and evil-spirited!
 
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