Freemasons?

[Edward_Henry]

John is a nice guy, we are trading Emails on our respective position. It has been nice that we can discuss it as gentlemen

Why should you not discuss it as gentlemen? Why should he discuss it with you at all? You seem imply that you are an authority on the subject? John was very informative on EWTN. What are your credentials?

John sad to say uses poor logic and bad information to make his points.

Once, again, what is your line of expertise? As you criticize him, you are placing your opinion over his. What should we accept you points of view over his testimony on EWTN?

 

[The_Rock]

Brother Steve;

Since I am emailing back and forth with John on this point, I would say why ask john at all?

Because we are not privy to those exchanges. If John Salza agrees why don’t you post them here (in their entirety) on this thread?

Why not ask the Masons what they have to say for themselves?

Because Masons take oaths of secrecy.

John sad to say uses poor logic and bad information to make his points.

Could you please be specific? Personally I find his logic quite solid, and he has first hand experience having been a Mason himself. He is also able to document his claims with extensive research.

 

[The_Rock]

Freemasonry… frequently asked questions:

scripturecatholic.com/freemasonfaq.html

Masonic rituals revealed:

scripturecatholic.com/three_degrees.html

 

[The_Rock]

Sonic…

My apologies. I did not know you had previously posted the **exact links **in my post above on the other thread! For some reason the pages on that thread where you refer to John Salza don’t display correctly on my screen… so I was to lazy to try read them.

 

[Brother_Steve]

Why should you not discuss it as gentlemen? Why should he discuss it with you at all? You seem imply that you are an authority on the subject? John was very informative on EWTN. What are your credentials?

Once, again, what is your line of expertise? As you criticize him, you are placing your opinion over his. What should we accept you points of view over his testimony on EWTN?

Authority on Masonry, no, just very informed. I studied the subject for twenty years before i joined it. What John and most antimasons go out of their way to ignore is that only a Grand Lodge Speaks for masonry, and only for their jurisdiction. Only a Grand Lodge defines what masonry is and what it means, not individual masons. Individual Masons can speculate and give their opinion on what they believe, but in the end it is their opinion and nothing more.

As for placing my opinion over his, no. I am placing the Grand Lodges opinion over his.
In our conversations I have used only his Grand Lodges opinions and documents, which are by the way the almost identical as my own Grand Lodges. So far no regular Grand Lodge has ever given a theological, or religious doctrinal statement.

As I told John I have been Master of my lodge twice, as well as the head of the Three York Rite bodies, (RAM Chapter twice, Cryptic Council Three times and Commandery once, in addition to heading the AMD Council, and Knight Masons being an officer KYCH, the YRC and of course the Red Cross of Constantine). I the Scottish Rite I am an officer and have received my KCCH. So when it comes to Masonry I have been there and done that many times.

 

[Brother_Steve]

Freemasonry… frequently asked questions:

scripturecatholic.com/freemasonfaq.html

Masonic rituals revealed:

scripturecatholic.com/three_degrees.html

Lets be honest here, lets the Masons speak for themselves, not what someone else say what they mean.

General Questions:
freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/index.html

On Religion:
freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/anti-masonry08.html

I thought everyone should take more time and see what Masons in Wisconsin are taught regarding religion and their official position. Here is the official version of what John Salza was taught;
wisc-freemasonry.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/12-Masonry-Religion.pdf
This is from the Wisconsin Masonic handbook, from the Grand Lodge which decides what the official position will be and no one else for that jurisdiction. As you can see it makes no claims of being a religion so theology, doctrine and dogma are outside of its function. Or as it is officially stated “the Craft’s only purpose is to help make good men better and that it supports its members in their religious faith”, further stated officially wisc-freemasonry.org/wi-freemasonry/ , “Therefore … I believe that freedom of religion is an inalienable human right and tolerance an indispensable trait of human character, I will stand in my lodge with Brothers of all faiths, and respect their belief, as they respect mine”. Did you notice it does not say agree only respect.

 

[Sonic]

Sonic…

My apologies. I did not know you had previously posted the **exact links **in my post above on the other thread! For some reason the pages on that thread where you refer to John Salza don’t display correctly on my screen… so I was to lazy to try read them.

It’s okay. No need to apologize.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I think the connection between some of the Masonic rituals with demonic and paganism comes from the fact that when Hillary discovered old documents at Rosslyn Chapel in Scotland, which supposedly came from the Knights Templar they incorporated them into their own rites.

Problem is, the documents came by way of torture when the Knights Templar were thrown into prison by King Philip II. Philip’s hatred for the Knights led him to petition the Pope to disband the order. The Pope refused however, holding the Knights in high regard. So, Philip had them arrested and under torture, forced some to sign confessions and statements of their involvement with demonic and pagan rituals. The confessions were given the Pope who half-heartedly believed them, but nevertheless, disbanded the order.

So, it is believed that some of the rites used by the Free Masons, were from those forced confessions, only they believe that they were true rites used by the Knights Templar.

It’s how the connection with the Free Masons and the Knights Templar came about. But the connection is based on fraudulent documents.

Jim

 

[Rence]

A person CANNOT be Catholic and a Freemason. It is forbidden by the Church.
If a Catholic is a Freemason then they are in a state of mortal sin and cannot receive Communion.

I know that the Church forbids one from becoming a freemason. But I also know a Catholic who is a freemason. He is still Catholic, and he is a mason. The Church also forbids artificial birth control, but there is a high percentage of Catholics using artificial birth control illicity. They’re still Catholic, and they’re still on birth control.

 

[Rascalking]

Something interesting to remember-the young lady Masonic group teaches chastity, patriotism, love, charity and fidelity. All good things.

 

[Edward_Henry]

As I told John I have been Master of my lodge twice, as well as the head of the Three York Rite bodies, (RAM Chapter twice, Cryptic Council Three times and Commandery once, in addition to heading the AMD Council, and Knight Masons being an officer KYCH, the YRC and of course the Red Cross of Constantine). I the Scottish Rite I am an officer and have received my KCCH. So when it comes to Masonry I have been there and done that many times.

Hummm, so as a Grand Master, you swore an oath not to ever reveal and to keep concealed the secrets of the Lodge. How could you now speak openly about it now in this forum?

POPE’S ENCYCLICAL: "Candidates are generally commanded to promise - nay, with a special oath, to swear - that they will never, to any person, at any time or in any way, make known the members, the passes, or the subjects discussed. Thus, with a fraudulent external appearance, and with a style of simulation which is always the same, the Freemasons, like the Manichees of old, strive, as far as possible, to conceal themselves, and to admit no witnesses but their own members.

As a convenient manner of concealment, they assume the character of literary men and scholars associated for purposes of learning. They speak of their zeal for a more cultured refinement, and of their love for the poor; and they declare their one wish to be the amelioration of the condition of the masses, and to share with the largest possible number all the benefits of civil life.Were these purposes aimed at in real truth, they are by no means the whole of their object.

Moreover, to be enrolled, it is necessary that the candidates promise and undertake to be thenceforward strictly obedient to their leaders and masters with the utmost submission and fidelity, and to be in readiness to do their bidding upon the slightest expression of their will; or, if disobedient, to submit to the direst penalties and death itself. As a fact, if any are judged to have betrayed the doings of the sect or to have resisted commands given, punishment is inflicted on them not infrequently, and with so much audacity and dexterity that the assassin very often escapes the detection and penalty of his crime" (underline emphasis added)
More here: Official Vatican Website

 

[Sonic]

I think the connection between some of the Masonic rituals with demonic and paganism comes from the fact that when Hillary discovered old documents at Rosslyn Chapel in Scotland, which supposedly came from the Knights Templar they incorporated them into their own rites.

Problem is, the documents came by way of torture when the Knights Templar were thrown into prison by King Philip II. Philip’s hatred for the Knights led him to petition the Pope to disband the order. The Pope refused however, holding the Knights in high regard. So, Philip had them arrested and under torture, forced some to sign confessions and statements of their involvement with demonic and pagan rituals. The confessions were given the Pope who half-heartedly believed them, but nevertheless, disbanded the order.

So, it is believed that some of the rites used by the Free Masons, were from those forced confessions, only they believe that they were true rites used by the Knights Templar.

It’s how the connection with the Free Masons and the Knights Templar came about. But the connection is based on fraudulent documents.

Jim

Jim, my understanding is that the connection originated with Charles Ramsey, who was trying to coax masons into supporting the Jacobite cause. According to the myth he created, the surviving Templars of Scotland had a purer more Christian form of masonry, and that the York rite had somehow been corrupted. There was supposed to be a separate degree system known as the Rite of Strict Observance (which no one ever really saw an actual authentic version of). Basically, the connection between the masons and the Templars is only masonic pseudo-history, which became popular in the late 1700’s.

Here is a link to a description of how the Knights Templar were accepted into their order, which I posted in another topic:

Secret Societies of the Middle Ages, by Thomas Keightley, [1837]

sacred-texts.com/sro/sma/sma19.htm

This article in the old Catholic Encyclopedia is the best I’ve read on the subject. Compare what is known about the actual history of the Templars to your post and see what facts contradict and which ones don’t.

The historical Knights Templar:

newadvent.org/cathen/14493a.htm

Also of interest to you will be The Parchment of Chinon at the Vatican Archives, which explains the absolution of the Knights Templar and the investigation the Pope ordered into what happened.

THE PARCHMENT OF CHINON – THE ABSOLUTION OF POPE CLEMENT V
OF THE LEADING MEMBERS OF THE TEMPLAR ORDER
Chinon, Diocese of Tours, 1308 August 17th-20th

asv.vatican.va/en/doc/1308.htm

A translation of the Parchment of Chinon is available here. It seems the Vatican website is under maintenance. It was available a few weeks ago week. It may come back soon.

This is the Absolution of the Knights Templar by Pope Clement V:

inrebus.com/chinon.php
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinon_Parchment

DeMolay and his knights, being an order of the church, caused great scandal by giving into the confessions forced upon them under torture. They were supposed to have been trained to resist such torture at the hands of hostile non-Christians in the Holy Land. If need be, they were expected to give their lives for the church. But most of those imprisoned by Phillip II failed to even stand up to him. Imagine if the Franciscans had all of a sudden confessed to such blasphemies under threat of torture. It was that bad a scandal for the church, and it was being used against the church by one of it’s enemies. It was very much like the scandals we have to day. Many people were hurt in their faith because of it.

This was a horrible thing, and DeMolay’s honor was totally ruined as a knight (even with the absolution he received). He chose to die… not out of protest as masons claim… but out of shame that he did not join those knights who refused to confess in the torture chamber. That seems to be the real story. No secrets… no treasure of the Holy Grail or Ark of the Covenant… no secret brotherhood hiding from the Inquisition in the far corners of the earth.

 

[thistle]

I know that the Church forbids one from becoming a freemason. But I also know a Catholic who is a freemason. He is still Catholic, and he is a mason. The Church also forbids artificial birth control, but there is a high percentage of Catholics using artificial birth control illicity. They’re still Catholic, and they’re still on birth control.

You are missing the point.
Any Catholic who is also a Freemason is in a state of mortal sin and if they die unrepentent they go to Hell. Why would anyone in their right senses stay a mason knowing they are endangering their immortal soul.
That applies to the others you refer to who also reject Church teachings. Dying unrepentent they condemn themselves to Hell.

 

[The_Rock]

Something interesting to remember-the young lady Masonic group teaches chastity, patriotism, love, charity and fidelity. All good things.

Also something interesting to remember…
In their acceptance ritual new masons are asked by the
worshipful master…In whom do you put your trust?
new mason responds…A confession of any deity suffices (my comment: could be Baal, Moloch, Morrigan, A buddha statue, A Hindu goddess etc).
worshipful master says…Your trust being in God, your faith is well founded.
source:
scripturecatholic.com/apprentice_first_section.html

Well founded???

THE FIRST COMMANDMENT
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.
It is written: “You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.”

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Sonic

Jim, my understanding is that the connection originated with Charles Ramsey, who was trying to coax masons into supporting the Jacobite cause. According to the myth he created, the surviving Templars of Scotland had a purer more Christian form of masonry, and that the York rite had somehow been corrupted. There was supposed to be a separate degree system known as the Rite of Strict Observance (which no one ever really saw an actual authentic version of). Basically, the connection between the masons and the Templars is only masonic pseudo-history, which became popular in the late 1700’s.

My information comes from various recent sources, but what comes to mind mostly is from the book, “Triumph: The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church: A 2,000-Year History,” by H.W. Crocker III.

I also saw him interviewed on EWTN “Bookmark,” which led me to get the book.

The thing is, the Knights Templar were disbanded long before Free Masonry turned into an anti-Catholic cult.

Here is a link to a description of how the Knights Templar were accepted into their order, which I posted in another topic:

Secret Societies of the Middle Ages, by Thomas Keightley, [1837]

sacred-texts.com/sro/sma/sma19.htm

I’ll check this out later.

This article in the old Catholic Encyclopedia is the best I’ve read on the subject. Compare what is known about the actual history of the Templars to your post and see what facts contradict and which ones don’t.

The historical Knights Templar:

newadvent.org/cathen/14493a.htm

Problem is, newadvent.org is outdated, near 100 years old and more recent historical studies have been publised over the years.

Also of interest to you will be The Parchment of Chinon at the Vatican Archives, which explains the absolution of the Knights Templar and the investigation the Pope ordered into what happened.

Again, the recent historical studies such as H.W. Crocker, provide more accurate information.

It is a known historical fact that Philip II loathed the Knights Templar and wanted them disbanded. The only way to get the Pope to ban them was to provide evidence that the order was involved in the occult and had adopted ancient pagan rituals. He used torture to extract written confessions which he would present to the Pope.

Of course, the use of torture to get people to confess to things they never did was common even up to the 17th century in the New World as in the Salem Witch trials.

THE PARCHMENT OF CHINON – THE ABSOLUTION OF POPE CLEMENT V
OF THE LEADING MEMBERS OF THE TEMPLAR ORDER
Chinon, Diocese of Tours, 1308 August 17th-20th

asv.vatican.va/en/doc/1308.htm

That would be interesting to read.

A translation of the Parchment of Chinon is available here. It seems the Vatican website is under maintenance. It was available a few weeks ago week. It may come back soon.

DeMolay and his knights, being an order of the church, caused great scandal by giving into the confessions forced upon them under torture. They were supposed to have been trained to resist such torture at the hands of hostile non-Christians in the Holy Land. If need be, they were expected to give their lives for the church. But most of those imprisoned by Phillip II failed to even stand up to him. Imagine if the Franciscans had all of a sudden confessed to such blasphemies under threat of torture. It was that bad a scandal for the church, and it was being used against the church by one of it’s enemies. It was very much like the scandals we have to day. Many people were hurt in their faith because of it.

This fits in what I have stated. However, to suggest that because some Knight’s broke under torture and confessed to lies, is the same mentality used by state in those days to justify what they did to prisoners, i.e. they must be guilty other wise they would’ve held out until death. Most everyone will eventually break under torture, especially when the tortures begin to torture innocent people until you confess.

But the point is, it is those documents taken under the duress of torture which were found at Rosslyn Chapel and made it into Free Masonry.

My brother-in-law is a Free Mason as was his father. In fact they hold the upper ranks of the organization. When his father died I attended the funeral and the did what is called the “Tree Ceremony.” As I later read, this ritual comes from the ancient Egyptian ritual worshiping the goddess Isis. I don’t know how true this is, because it came from bias Catholic sources, I believe at this site.

Jim

 

[MtnDwellar]

This thread is about Free Masons?

I suppose it is much better to be a free mason than one of those masons who are kept chained and locked up in the basement.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Now I’m not sure if this is correct or not, but one of the major points I’ve heard about in becoming a Free Mason is the rejection of the Holy Trinity.

The order more embraces deism, rather than theist teachings held by Catholics and Christians in general.

Just because an organization does good things, does not mean it’s not without error and in this case, spiritually harmful.

Jim

 

[Rence]

You are missing the point.
Any Catholic who is also a Freemason is in a state of mortal sin and if they die unrepentent they go to Hell. Why would anyone in their right senses stay a mason knowing they are endangering their immortal soul.
That applies to the others you refer to who also reject Church teachings. Dying unrepentent they condemn themselves to Hell.

I’m not missing the point. The Catholic friend of mine who is also a Mason had never heard of that particular teaching when he became one, and after I told him, disregarded it as silly. He believes the masons to be non-restrictive, he knows they are good for our community, and the masons are always there when someone needs them. It’s a little difficult for someone to take seriously such a Church teaching when there is proof right there in front of them that booms the opposite: that the masons with whom he associates is quite the opposite of the bad guy the Church makes them out to be. In a way, I understand him. Here we have a group in the community that nurtures a brotherhood among the men, drops everything at a dime when someone needs help, provides charity work and donations to the poor, sick and elderly, and has high expectations of its members. He’s Catholic, and they’ve never ever given him a hard time about it. According to him, each member is allowed to practice their religion without question. So while I can understand your persepctive, I understand his as well.

 

[Rence]

Now I’m not sure if this is correct or not, but one of the major points I’ve heard about in becoming a Free Mason is the rejection of the Holy Trinity.

The order more embraces deism, rather than theist teachings held by Catholics and Christians in general.

Just because an organization does good things, does not mean it’s not without error and in this case, spiritually harmful.

Jim

Well, according to my friends, who are masons, they are not made to reject whatever religion they practice. The order requires that their members worship God in whatever religon the member practices. As I’ve said earlier, two of my friends who are masons are Baptist, and one is Catholic and certainly does not deny the Trinity.

 

[Sonic]

My information comes from various recent sources, but what comes to mind mostly is from the book, “Triumph: The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church: A 2,000-Year History,” by H.W. Crocker III

Problem is, newadvent.org is outdated, near 100 years old and more recent historical studies have been published over the years.

You shouldn’t be so quick to dismiss historical sources, though. The article in the old Catholic Encyclopedia is sound despite it’s age, and is an excellent introduction for anyone not familiar with what happened. I’m sure you will not find anything contradicting new research in the article. Also, you check out Mr. Crocker’s bibliography. You may find the sources I posted in his book.

Perhaps if you would explain (in better detail) about Crocker’s information concerning Hillary and Rosslyn chapel, I might understand you better. Unfortunately, your last post was very cryptic.

My understanding is that Ramsey is the source for connecting the Templars to the Masons, and that no such connection existed before that time. Any interest in using “paganism” in the rituals can be historically proved to have predated Ramsey’s Templar pseudo-history. There was already an intense interest in the idea of secret occult and alchemical societies in Europe at that time (the Rosicrucians for example which is based on a fantasy book). It’s highly unlikely that any documents from Rosslyn Chapel would have been much of a major influence. The only reason the Templar myth was adopted by masons was because of the sinister myth that surrounded them, but that myth was well known and widespread in France.

A copy of the words contained in the Chinon Parchment was published in the documents contained in “Histoire de l’Ordre Militaire des Templiers”, by Pierre Du Puy, Foppens, Brusselles, 1751. So once again Rosslyn Chapel was not needed as a source for gleaning information about the case or confessions.

So you’ll understand if I remain interested in hearing what further information Mr. Crocker has learned, which could change what is known even from the light of new research (much of which is based on old historical documents).