Freemasons?

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Like I said before, no answer could ever satisfy you…

It’s a waste of time to talk to people who believe in conspiracies, so I just make fun of them…

People who believe in these theories are the equivalent to the homeless man on the street who smells like whiskey at 9:30 in the morning and screams that he is Napoleon Bonaparte. Is he? No. But try to convince him of that.
Riiight! 😊

So according to your answer, **Pope Leo XIII’s Encyclical **is just the paranoid statement of someone who believes in ‘conspiracy theories.’ So we should ridicule and “make fun” of his warning, because “It’s a waste of time to talk to people who believe in conspiracies.” 🤷

You still have not answered the question!

*The term ‘Conspiracy Theory’ *is a term developed, popularized and employed by conspirators to ridicule those who are close to uncover their conspiracy to the masses. **
 
Riiight! 😊

So according to your answer, **Pope Leo XIII’s Encyclical **is just the paranoid statement of someone who believes in ‘conspiracy theories.’ So we should ridicule and “make fun” of his warning, because “It’s a waste of time to talk to people who believe in conspiracies.” 🤷

You still have not answered the question!

*The term ‘Conspiracy Theory’ ***is a term developed, popularized and employed by conspirators to ridicule those who are close to uncover their conspiracy to the masses.
Or perhaps that ONCE upon a time fremasons actually did something bad. That created a cult of fear around them. And perhaps some people actually know that they are talking about and equaivlating Freemasons to Shriners is true.

The idea that there were secret anti-catholic societies may not be false. There are books on how the soviets trained people to take down priests and infiltrated seminaires. Not conspisary exactly. They didn’t even have to discredit people becuase the church let it happen.

Conspiracys happen but they’re very very rare. And I don’t think that a bunch of retired guys who like to play penochle and smoke and voulenteer every so often really have the time to go invade the ranks of the Catholic church. Perhaps 100 years ago some did harm to the church but it’s over and done with. That they’d continue to do so is silly. Thing about conspisaries is that like everything, eventually they come to light. There are not 100 year old conspisaries or things plotting to come out from under the bed like boogeymonsters.

Would I be happy if my brother/dad/boyfriend joined? Not really, but that’s becuase I think that there are better orginizations to give your time to.
 
Or perhaps that ONCE upon a time fremasons actually did something bad. That created a cult of fear around them. And perhaps some people actually know that they are talking about and equaivlating Freemasons to Shriners is true.

The idea that there were secret anti-catholic societies may not be false. There are books on how the soviets trained people to take down priests and infiltrated seminaires. Not conspisary exactly. They didn’t even have to discredit people becuase the church let it happen.

Conspiracys happen but they’re very very rare. And I don’t think that a bunch of retired guys who like to play penochle and smoke and voulenteer every so often really have the time to go invade the ranks of the Catholic church. Perhaps 100 years ago some did harm to the church but it’s over and done with. That they’d continue to do so is silly. Thing about conspisaries is that like everything, eventually they come to light. There are not 100 year old conspisaries or things plotting to come out from under the bed like boogeymonsters.

Would I be happy if my brother/dad/boyfriend joined? Not really, but that’s becuase I think that there are better orginizations to give your time to.
Thank you for your response. While some may be “a bunch of retired guys who like to play penochle and smoke and volunteer every so often” some others become judges and change nations by changing their laws. i.e. the Portuguese nation.
 
Conspiracys happen but they’re very very rare.
I’m disputing what you said, but I would like to point out one thing. The reason people believe conspiracy theories is because they happen every day. Put three people in a room together and you have a conspiracy (for good or bad). If you’ve ever planned a surprise birthday party, then you were part of small but insignificant conspiracy. You need only speak to law enforcement to know that conspiracies to commit crimes happen everyday. Somewhere in the world someone is meeting to help fellow Catholics practice their religion in countries hostile to the Church.

There has come a tendency in this day and age to associate the term conspiracy with ludicrous plots conceived by whackos and nutjobs. This is a political phenomena. The term is now being overly misused to dismiss discussion about controversial events or actions. It doesn’t matter what political agenda someone subscribes to, it’s very common now to call out “conspiracy theory” whenever uncomfortable questions get raised.

To add to that, “conspiracy theories” have entered into popular culture and have become a big money maker. Look at all the books, movies, and video games produced on that subject alone. Also, anti-conspiracy theories have become just as lucrative with plenty of books aimed at debunking conspiracies.

All I have to say is let’s not be too quick to dismiss anything that is said on any issue, but let’s examine facts without being purposely mislead by false sources and misinformation.
 
I’m disputing what you said, but I would like to point out one thing. The reason people believe conspiracy theories is because they happen every day. Put three people in a room together and you have a conspiracy (for good or bad). If you’ve ever planned a surprise birthday party, then you were part of small but insignificant conspiracy. You need only speak to law enforcement to know that conspiracies to commit crimes happen everyday. Somewhere in the world someone is meeting to help fellow Catholics practice their religion in countries hostile to the Church.

There has come a tendency in this day and age to associate the term conspiracy with ludicrous plots conceived by whackos and nutjobs. This is a political phenomena. The term is now being overly misused to dismiss discussion about controversial events or actions. It doesn’t matter what political agenda someone subscribes to, it’s very common now to call out “conspiracy theory” whenever uncomfortable questions get raised.

To add to that, “conspiracy theories” have entered into popular culture and have become a big money maker. Look at all the books, movies, and video games produced on that subject alone. Also, anti-conspiracy theories have become just as lucrative with plenty of books aimed at debunking conspiracies.

All I have to say is let’s not be too quick to dismiss anything that is said on any issue, but let’s examine facts without being purposely mislead by false sources and misinformation.
I do not believe that anyone could have said it better! :clapping: :tiphat: :clapping:

From the moment of the Fall in the Garden, the whole history of our salvation has been one of conspiracy. With a “Conspirator” that will do anything possible to conspire against our salvation. Through the centuries, this diabolical “Conspirator” has made use of nations, dictators and secret societies to undermine God’s plan for humanity. Jesus knew that this conspirator is still at large in the world and this is why He prayed to the Father.* “My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.” *(John 17 : 15) Jesus was aware of this conspirator and He was not worried about being ridiculed
 
I’m disputing what you said, but I would like to point out one thing.
I meant to say “I’m not disputing what you said, but…”

I hope that doesn’t cause too much confusion over my post. 🙂
 
The freemasons also killed Kennedy, Jimmy Hoffa, Elvis, and my grandfather. They were responible for 9/11, the Cold War, Iraq, and the English civil war. They stole my bike in 5th grade, have a computer with the name of every Catholic in the world, caused the stock market crash in the 20’s, personally placed an iceberg in the Atlantic sinking the Titanic, and are planning world dominiation.

They also burnt my grilled cheese sandwich I made last night.
It took me two and a half hours to find my cow, who wandered off because something, somewhere took down her fencing. Do you think the Masons did it? Maybe it was the two deer who ran past my window a few days ago? 🤷

Anyway, while I really don’t know if the conspiracy theories regarding the masons are true or not, I really don’t care because it’s not what they’re doing now…they wouldn’t be the first group, culture, religion, nationality, etc. to ever have a bad history. If we judge a group by its history, then we should run away from ourselves as the U.S. didn’t exactly have a history that epitomized Snow White. Just off the top of my head, for example, our country’s founders and government practically exterminated the original inhabitants, and occupied their land by force, and those that were left were rounded up and put on “reservations”. If the Masons ever did have a mile-long-list of travesties in the past, it’s in the past. Today’s Masons are speak for themselves by their example in their involvement with their communities. And that means a lot more to people than “conspiracies”.
 
I really don’t understand why these discussions go on and on.

The Church position is crystal clear.
The Church states a Catholic is forbidden to be a Freemason otherwise they are in a state of mortal sin.
No amount of arguing or some people thinking Freemasons are nice guys is going to change that.
Any Catholic who is a Freemason and does not cease to be a Freemason is in a state of mortal sin and dying unrepentent goes to Hell.
Those who think that is silly and disregard the Church damn themselves. Why would such a person endanger their soul by such disobedience to the Church. As Christ gave the Church authority in matters of faith and morals such people are rejecting Christ.
 
I really don’t understand why these discussions go on and on.

The Church position is crystal clear.
The Church states a Catholic is forbidden to be a Freemason otherwise they are in a state of mortal sin.
No amount of arguing or some people thinking Freemasons are nice guys is going to change that.
Any Catholic who is a Freemason and does not cease to be a Freemason is in a state of mortal sin and dying unrepentent goes to Hell.
Those who think that is silly and disregard the Church damn themselves. Why would such a person endanger their soul by such disobedience to the Church. As Christ gave the Church authority in matters of faith and morals such people are rejecting Christ.
That is exactly right, thistle. Then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger stated the Church’s official position in his pronouncement as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, “Declaration on Masonic Associations” (Quaesitum est) of November 26, 1983:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19831126_declaration-masonic_en.html

More recently, Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz of the diocese of Lincoln, NE in 1996 issued an order of interdict and subsequent excommunication of any member of his diocese belonging to the following Masonic organizations (among other associations explicitly named in his order):

Freemasons
Job’s Daughters
DeMolay
Eastern Star
Rainbow Girls

On December 7, 2006, Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, as Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops, in a letter to Bishop Bruskewitz, upheld the bishop’s order as it pertained to the group “Call to Action” which had appealed the order to the Vatican. Presumably, the Vatican also implicitly approved of Bishop Bruskewitz’ order as it concerned the Masonic associations as well since it made no mention of them specifically. While the bishop’s ruling applies only to his own diocese, it does give an indication of the possible position of other bishops on the matter, if it were presented to them.

Rome has spoken…
 
Right! :rolleyes:
Yeah, also our kids in our public schools are* graciously *allowed to discuss religion in the parking lot. But inside, they must not ***offend ***others with names such as “Jesus” so they must “keep it to themselves.” Any similarities?

Leave it to the new strategical laws of “political correctness” in America. = You are free to believe in any God but keep it to yourself. By the way, how many current members of the Supreme Court are masons?

To Jesus through Mary 👍
With the schools being government owned and operated, What part of separation of Church and State do you know understand. And what part of anywhere other than** IN** a business meeting did you not get. Its is not a church meeting it is not a political meeting it is a business meeting. Just like any other civic organization.

Freedom of religion, that mean the freedom to practice your religion without having some one ram their religion down your throat while being a captive audience. Or maybe you’d like
to be stuck in a meeting with someone from Bob Jones university ramming his theology down your throat. Better yet have your kids taught Christianity according to Benny Hinn.

At this time no Justices I know are Masons. And what would that matter anyways?
I doubt if you could cite any Supreme court rulings given by a Judge with Mason ties.
Since Masons as individuals have political leanings from extreme left as in FDR to far right as in Bob Dole, you show me a one Mason’s view and I will show you another.
 
How did the freemasons led by Robespierre treat the Catholic Church in France during the French Revolution? How many priests were killed?

How did the freemasons, under the name of “Carbonarians” treat the Catholic Church in Portugal after the assassination of the last Portuguese king in 1919? How many priests were arrested by the new Carbonarian republican government?

There are plenty of reliable historical sources to respond to both of these questions.🙂
French freemasons of the 18th century were, in the main, aristocrats, priests, military officers or bourgeoisie. They were not in sympathy with radical social change. A growing belief that a ruler governed by right of the people and not by right of God provided a backdrop for much of the French Revolution. Whatever the actions of individual Freemasons

Not only did Freemasonry have no part in instigating the movement but it was one of the principal sufferers… and the majority of Paris Masters lost their lives. Before the Revolution the Grand Orient of France had 67 lodges in Paris and 463 in the Provinces, Colonies and Foreign Countries; the Grand Lodge had 88 in Paris and 43 outside. During the Revolution period only two or three of the Paris lodges kept open.

As for the Carbonari, The current interest in the Alta Vendita, mostly on the part of the extreme anti-Vatican II fringe of the Catholic church,1 was piqued by the 1998 publication of Alta Vendita, The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita by John Vennari, a writer for the Catholic Family News.

There is nothing in Vennari’s booklet, or any other writings on the Alta Venditi, that proves that the group was associated in any fashion with regular Freemasonry, that it had any influence on Freemasonry
 
French freemasons of the 18th century were, in the main, aristocrats, priests, military officers or bourgeoisie. They were not in sympathy with radical social change. A growing belief that a ruler governed by right of the people and not by right of God provided a backdrop for much of the French Revolution. Whatever the actions of individual Freemasons

Not only did Freemasonry have no part in instigating the movement but it was one of the principal sufferers… and the majority of Paris Masters lost their lives. Before the Revolution the Grand Orient of France had 67 lodges in Paris and 463 in the Provinces, Colonies and Foreign Countries; the Grand Lodge had 88 in Paris and 43 outside. During the Revolution period only two or three of the Paris lodges kept open.

As for the Carbonari, The current interest in the Alta Vendita, mostly on the part of the extreme anti-Vatican II fringe of the Catholic church,1 was piqued by the 1998 publication of Alta Vendita, The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita by John Vennari, a writer for the Catholic Family News.

There is nothing in Vennari’s booklet, or any other writings on the Alta Venditi, that proves that the group was associated in any fashion with regular Freemasonry, that it had any influence on Freemasonry
Wow, once again we are circumventing* around two simple questions! :o Instead of honestly answering them we are receiving a bunch of “justifications” to the facts.

*** Circumventing**: *to manage to get around especially by ingenuity or stratagem *(Webster)

Since honestly answering these two “difficult” questions is resulting so troublesome for you. I will break them down into four simpler questions:
  1. How did the freemasons led by Robespierre treat the ***Catholic Church ***in France during the ‘Reign of Terror’ of the French Revolution?
  2. How many priests were killed?
  3. How did the freemasons, under the name of “Carbonarians”, treat the ***Catholic Church ***in Portugal after the assassination of the last Portuguese king in 1919?
  4. How many priests were arrested by the new Carbonarian republican government?
I hope this makes it simpler to answer 🙂

There other affected nations and unfortunate examples in history, but I will let you deal with these two first.

To Jesus through Mary 👍
 
Wow, once again we are circumventing* around two simple questions! :o Instead of honestly answering them we are receiving a bunch of “justifications” to the facts.

*** Circumventing**: *to manage to get around especially by ingenuity or stratagem *(Webster)

Since honestly answering these two “difficult” questions is resulting so troublesome for you. I will break them down into four simpler questions:
  1. How did the freemasons led by Robespierre treat the ***Catholic Church ***in France during the ‘Reign of Terror’ of the French Revolution?
  2. How many priests were killed?
  3. How did the freemasons, under the name of “Carbonarians”, treat the ***Catholic Church ***in Portugal after the assassination of the last Portuguese king in 1919?
  4. How many priests were arrested by the new Carbonarian republican government?
I hope this makes it simpler to answer 🙂

There other affected nations and unfortunate examples in history, but I will let you deal with these two first.

To Jesus through Mary 👍
  1. You say Freemasons, OK what Freemasons? What Grand Lodge because I have never found any references to the Grand Orient of France making any declaration. If you have any documented references to the Grand Lodge having any cite them, (and I mean official document not some one opinion).
  2. I have never seen any historical documentation of that number
3 as far as the Carbonarian are concerned there NO ONE has ever produced any documentation that this group was ever part of Freemasonry or connected with Freemasonry. Again if you have verified documentation and I don’t mean some ones opinion, or speculation show it.
  1. Where there Freemasons that were republican yes there were, where there Catholics that were Republicans, yes there were.
The point you miss completely is that individual Masons can do as they please, that is hugely different than the organization.
 
More recently, Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz of the diocese of Lincoln, NE in 1996 issued an order of interdict and subsequent excommunication of any member of his diocese belonging to the following Masonic organizations (among other associations explicitly named in his order):

Freemasons
Job’s Daughters
DeMolay
Eastern Star
Rainbow Girls…
I’ve never heard of, or seen documentation of, Catholics being forbidden to be Eastern Stars. Was that only in this diocese of Lincoln, NE in 1996? Where is an official Church document to the effect that all of these groups (aside from the obvious Masons) are forbidden for Catholics to join?
 
Rence,

You write:
I’ve never heard of, or seen documentation of, Catholics being forbidden to be Eastern Stars. Was that only in this diocese of Lincoln, NE in 1996? Where is an official Church document to the effect that all of these groups (aside from the obvious Masons) are forbidden for Catholics to join?
I am not a canon lawyer or expert in canon law and I know next to nothing about the Freemasons. However, from what I was able to find, the organizations Job’s Daughters, DeMolay, Eastern Star and Rainbow Girls are auxiliaries of, sponsored by, or otherwise affiliated with the Freemasons. They might therefore be described as “Masonic associations” within the meaning of the “Declaration on Masonic Associations” (Quaesitum est) of November 26, 1983 issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

The 1917 Code of Canon Law stated:

“Can. 2335. Nomen dantes sectae massonicae aliisve eiusdem generis associationibus quae contra Ecclesiam vel legitimas civiles potestates machinantur, contrahunt ipso facto excommunicationem Sedi Apostolicae simpliciter reservatam.”

I cite this in Latin since I cannot find an English translation. I would interpret it unofficially and informally as follows:

“Can. 2335. Those who subscribe their name to a Masonic sect or to other associations of the same kind, which plot against the Church or against legitimate civil authorities, incur ipso facto excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See.”

This was replaced in the 1983 Code of Canon Law with the following:

“Can. 1374. A person who joins an association which plots against the Church is to be punished with a just penalty - one who promotes or takes office in such an association is to be punished with an interdict.”

By “interdict” is understood that the person affected is forbidden to receive Holy Communion.

The “Declaration on Masonic Associations” (Quaesitum est) of November 26, 1983 issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith clarified that Canon 1374 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law did in fact apply to membership in Masonic associations (note the the use of the plural “associations”). Had the Congregation intended to reference only the Freemasons themselves, it is almost certain that they would have used the singular “the Freemasons.” Formal pronouncements of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith such as this do constitute official Church teaching and are binding on all Catholics. The full text of the Declaration can be found at:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19831126_declaration-masonic_en.html

The pronouncements of a bishop in his capacity as head of a diocese, i.e., as extra synodal legislation, apply only to members of his own diocese. Thus, Bishop Bruskewitz’ order of 1996 applies only to Catholics within the diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska. I cited it merely to indicate the interpretation of one bishop and to state that other bishops might be inclined to rule similarly concerning Masonic associations if the question were put to them directly. Bishop Bruskewitz’ order can be read at:

ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/BRUSKWTZ.HTM

Bishop Bruskewitz’ pronouncement was reviewed by the Congregation for Bishops as noted in my earlier post since the organization “Call to Action” (not related to the Freemasons at all) appealed his ruling to that forum in the Vatican [letter of December 7, 2006 from Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, Prefect of the Congregation of Bishops, to Bishop Bruskewitz]. It seems probable that if the bishop were manifestly in error as concerns the Masonic associations he named in his original decree, the Congregation would have so stated even though those organizations were not the specific subject of the appeal. The Congregation did not.

I would recommend that you consult a priest if you still have doubts about the status of any organizations that might be covered by the term “Masonic associations.”
 
  1. You say Freemasons, OK what Freemasons? What Grand Lodge because I have never found any references to the Grand Orient of France making any declaration. If you have any documented references to the Grand Lodge having any cite them, (and I mean official document not some one opinion).
  2. I have never seen any historical documentation of that number
3 as far as the Carbonarian are concerned there NO ONE has ever produced any documentation that this group was ever part of Freemasonry or connected with Freemasonry. Again if you have verified documentation and I don’t mean some ones opinion, or speculation show it.
  1. Where there Freemasons that were republican yes there were, where there Catholics that were Republicans, yes there were.
The point you miss completely is that individual Masons can do as they please, that is hugely different than the organization.
For great amount of historical documentation on the role of the Carbonarians (masons) in the violent abolishment of the Portuguese monarchy you should read this amazing work:

**Fatima In The Light of History **
by Portuguese historian Costa Brochado
Translated by George C. Boehrer
(which includes *Imprimatur *and Nihil Obstat.)
Copyright 1955

The term ‘Conspiracy Theory’ is a term developed, popularized and employed by conspirators to ridicule those who are close to uncovering their conspiracy to the masses.
 
Literally everyone in my immediate family belongs to the Masonic lodge. None of them worship Lucifer or anything like that. The men are Freemasons. The women belong to the Eastern Star. I’m the only Catholic.

Since I converted to Catholicism, not a single person has tried to hunt me down, etc. The lodge knows where I live and work! They would have plotted my down fall by now.

The way some Catholics react to Freemasons is no different than how anti-Catholic protestants react to us. Pot, meet kettle.

On a side note, no, I don’t belong to the lodge. I’m a female and not forbidden from joining the Eastern Star. I just don’t want to for reasons completely unrelated to religion.
My Dad was a Mason, both parents in Eastern Star and I was a Rainbow Girl when I was a teen. No devil worship. Both parents went to church every Sunday as did I. Dad was a deacon in our church, all their friends who were Masons and Eastern Stars were church going folks of all different religions. Nothing nefarious or evil going on there.
Can’t speak about the past, but since the 60’s, nothing but good stuff from the Masonic Temple in the city where I grew up! Got my first kiss at a Rainbow Girl/DeMolay dance!

I truly get tired of hearing how evil Masons are.
 
My Dad was a Mason, both parents in Eastern Star and I was a Rainbow Girl when I was a teen. No devil worship. Both parents went to church every Sunday as did I. Dad was a deacon in our church, all their friends who were Masons and Eastern Stars were church going folks of all different religions. Nothing nefarious or evil going on there.
Can’t speak about the past, but since the 60’s, nothing but good stuff from the Masonic Temple in the city where I grew up! Got my first kiss at a Rainbow Girl/DeMolay dance!
.
You can find good people everywhere
I truly get tired of hearing how evil Masons are
Members of that society have been the instruments of tremendous evil in most countries of the world, against the Church and against the monarchy.
 
You can find good people everywhere

Members of that society have been the instruments of tremendous evil in most countries of the world, against the Church and against the monarchy.
Please, tell me about all the incidents in the past year from the USA, I want to read about them please, so be sure and quote the source. And then go backwards and tell me about all the incidents in the US from 2012 back to 1960. I want to see all the evil that the Mason’s are responsible for in modern America. Yes, I’m sure that the hospitals are a hotbed of evil and destruction too.
 
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